Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?

Allen

Peace Ignoramus,

No need to apologize for a very knowledgeable and clarifying question. Indeed, it is a superlative so it would mean "most balanced". Thank you for pointing this out.

Peace,

Ayman

English - Arabic
balanced adjective keeping or showing a balance
, , ,

balanced noun steadiness of mind; sanity
, ,

amount (of money) still owed after some payment has been made; remainder of something after part has already been used , taken , etc
,

even distribution of weight or amount; equivalence between two opposites; difference between two columns of an account , money received and money spent
,

instrument used for weighing , with a central pivot , a beam and two scales or pans
, ,

balanced verb put or be in a state of balance; compare the value of something with that of another; give equal importance to different parts of something
, , ( )

http//dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=balanced

Arabic - English

place in the center(of)

place in the center(of) , choose or appoint as mediator , ask to act as intermediary

,
surroundings , milieu , medium , ecology , environment
,
mediocre , average , run-of-the-mill , moderate , average , temperate , commonplace , normal , center , ordinary , general

flank , waist
,
ratio , average , averaging , on the average
,
center

be in the middle(of) , be in the center(of)

,
middle , center

http//dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=%e6%d3%d8

stefan_rosty

wusta is middle

stefan_rosty

( * * ) tawseet to make a thing in the middle ( )

peace peace

stefan_rosty

it is balanced because it is in the middle, but the the middle prayer is between the fajr prayer and the esha

in the middle

ignoramus

salam

what is the purpose/meaning of the wa between al salawati and al salatilwusta in 2238
( ) if wusta here is (most) balanced/middle/best?

salam

Bigmo

Peace all.

Bigmo, wonderful attachment.

In reading the posts and threads along these pages I see a very common trend. Individuals who do not follow the scriptures, reinterpreting scriptural commands, to observe rituals from scripture. Its a never ending chase, bceause without implementing all of the scriptures, we can not know how to implement the rituals we have.
Muslims very frequently look to their own devices (personal interpretation, hadiyth) instead of following what the Qur'aan says. Yes, Muslims who seek to answer "the salat question" will continue endlessly to search for it in the light of Qur'aan or invent their own rituals. The reality is THE QUR'AAN NOWHERE EXPLAINS THE SALAAT RITUAL, BECAUSE IT NOWHERE EXPLAINS THE SALAAT RITUAL!
We have allowed the adversary Shaytaan to separate us from the Umm Ul Kitaab, the mother book, by postulating that all of the torahs in the world and all the gospels in the world are tampered with. Most Muslims don't even know that Al Injiyl is not the four gospels that we have today. Matthew (written 65 a.d), Mark (written 41 a.d.), Luke (written 58 a.d.), and John (written 98 a.d.) were all atleast ten years after Rabboni Yashua bar Miriam/Issa ibn Maryam "died" and therefore could not be the Injiyl which is documented according to the Qur'aan. No the true remnants that we have from Al Injiyl are the Quelle document (commonly known as the Gospel of Q).
Allah Subhanuhu Wa Ta'Alla commands the prophet Mustafa Muhammad Al Amin to (Qura 1094)

Fa'in Kunta F Shakkin Mimm 'Anzaln 'Ilayka Fs'ali Al-Ladhna Yaqra'na Al-Kitba Min Qablika

"So if you are questioning as to what we sent down to you, then ask those WHO READ THE SCRIPTURE FROM BEFORE YOU.."

The Qur'aan is the Bayyinah wa Furqaan that clears up the misinterpretation of the scriptures. It is through the light of Al Quraan that we are better to (for example) understand "documentary hypothesis". The claims that the Jews corrupted the Torah is not accurate. A sounder historical analyzation of the facts would demonstrate the Jews had multiple Torahs (one for the Kingdom of Israel ("E" text)/one for the Nation of Judea ("J" text)/The true torah kept sacred by the Mus***e priests in Shiloh ("P" text)/and the reformist Torah written by Hilkiah under Hezekiah).
We have the true torah of Moses and Aaron, called the P text(revealed from 1512-1473 bce), the Zubuwr (book of Psalms revealed 1037 bce), the Injiyl (the Q gospel revealed 30 ad to Jesus at the age of 36), and the Quraan (revealed between 610-631 ad).
It is throught the light of the scriptures that we come to truly understand exactly what 'millatul ibrahim' is. We come to understand that the covenant of prophecy was given to the seed of Abraham after the flood through the promise made to him from Allah ta'Ala (Genesis 68-9;121-3, 7; 1314-18; 154, 5, 13-18; 171-8; 1817-19; 2215-18; Qur 2124-140; Qur 570). We come to see that with the exit of Isa ibn Maryam/Yashua bar Maryam Al Masih/Ha Meshiakh was the covenant of prophecy passed to Muhammad (John 1426, Deut 18, John 120) and the gate opened to the gentiles (Qur 381; Isa 426,11) through the new Covenant (al Islaam).
We also come to the understanding that three time daily prayer was instituted as a supplement to the three daily servcies of the mosaic tabernacle/temple of solomon(Mincha, Maariv, Shakharit) psalms 557; dan 610. That the attitude of prayer ordinarily was standing (1 Sam. 1 26; Neh. 9 2, 4; Matt. 6 5; Luke 18 11, 13); also kneeling (1 Kgs. 8 54; Dan. 6 10; Ezra 9 5); or prostrate (Josh. 7 6; Neh. 8 6). Jesus himself also kept this attitude, often he knelt (Luke 22 41), fell on his face (Matt. 26 39), fell on the ground (Mark 14 35). It is noteworthy that Stephen (Acts 7 60), Peter (Acts 9 40), Paul (Acts 20 36; Acts 21 5), and the Christians generally (Acts 21 5) knelt to pray. That the orginal prayer structure was free-form, merely just the honest prayers of the petitioner. Later Isa/Yashua/Jesus codified the structure of prayer (Luke 111-3). Unfortunately due to the later gentile perversion of the terminology for Allah ta'Ala (Abba, Ab, Pater), the Quran redefined the prayer structure (Qur 1988-92; 1123) to rid the service established by Abraham (Genesis 17, 1927) of the pagan accretions and we were given Al Fatihah ti use in it's stead (Qur 1; 1587)

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
All praise belongs to God, Lord of the Universe,
the Beneficent, the Merciful
and Master of the Day of Judgment.
(Lord), You alone We do worship and from You alone we do seek assistance
(Lord), guide us to the right path,
the path of those to whom You have granted blessings, those who are neither subject to Your anger nor have gone astray.

Its only through wedding the scriptures together (Qur 2136, 4136; 1094; 548,65-69) that we can understand their true message.

Peace to all
Latif Abdullah

And how can the prophet ask the people who read the scriptures before him if they never existed and these scriptures no longer existed when he became a prophet?

You got it wrong in my view.

stefan_rosty

salam

what is the purpose/meaning of the wa between al salawati and al salatilwusta in 2238
( ) if wusta here is (most) balanced/middle/best?

salam

we have three salat ( ) defined in the Quran.

salat al fajr ( &#1616 verse 2458
al salat al wusta ( &#1609 verse 2238
Salat al esha ( &#1569 verse 2458

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=24&vid=58
http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=238

their timings are ( ) at both edges of the day, and the near part of the night. 11114

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=11&vid=114

both edges

1-sunrise (1st edge of the day) or fajr
2-sunset (2nd edge of the day) or maghrib

and

3-early hours of the night (the near part of the night) ( ) or esha

i think that the period in which ( &#1609occurs,between sunset and the total darkness of the night, which is a short period, thats why it is mentioned exclusively in

Maintain the prayers and the Middle prayer, and stand obedient to God.2238

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=238

so that you don't miss it out

( ) "prayers" indicates that they are more than two

( ) "The Middle" indicates that they must be an odd number

peace

Bigmo

we have three salat defined in the Quran.

salat al fajr ( &#1616 verse 2458
al salat al wusta ( &#1609 verse 2238
Salat al esha ( &#1569 verse 2458

their timings are ( ) at both edges of the day, and the near part of the night. 11114

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=11&vid=114

1-sunrise (1st edge of the day) or fajr
2-sunset (2nd edge of the day) or maghrib
3-early hours of the night (the near part of the night) ( ) or esha

i think that the period in which ( &#1609occurs,between sunset and the total darkness of the night, which is a short period, thats why it is mentioned exclusively in

Maintain the prayers and the Middle prayer, and stand obedient to God.2238

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=238

so that you don't miss it out

peace

Fajr and Ishar are already mentioned.

Two edges of the day is the time before and after them. Fajr and Isha. The middle is the magrib, between the decline of the sun and darkness(isha). Thats what the koran seems to be saying.

There are others who said the the two ends are zuhr and asr. However "nahar" means daylight which includes morning so this is still fuzzy.

The middle prayers was emphasized because its short, between sunset(dulook) and darkness(ghasaq), about 45 minutes.

Then there is friday prayers which has to be in daytime when people trade.

Whats interesting is the loud prayers and silent prayers. Both the zuhr and asr silent. But the friday is loud. Fajr, maghrib and isha, and friday, the first two rika'at are all loud and in agreement with timings of Koran. Since there is nothing about praying silent in the Koran.

However there is never going to be agreement about this.

stefan_rosty

Fajr and Ishar are already mentioned.

Two edges of the day is the time before and after them. Fajr and Isha. The middle is the magrib, between the decline of the sun and darkness(isha). Thats what the koran seems to be saying.

There are others who said the the two ends are zuhr and asr. However "nahar" means daylight which includes morning so this is still fuzzy.

The middle prayers was emphasized because its short, between sunset(dulook) and darkness(ghasaq), about 45 minutes.

Then there is friday prayers which has to be in daytime when people trade.

Whats interesting is the loud prayers and silent prayers. Both the zuhr and asr silent. But the friday is loud. Fajr, maghrib and isha, and friday, the first two rika'at are all loud and in agreement with timings of Koran. Since there is nothing about praying silent in the Koran.

However there is never going to be agreement about this.

Fajr and Wusta are Two edges of the day

and Esha is early hours of the night (the near part of the night) ( )

fajr , maghrib and esha .

the non-silent ones.

O you who believe, when the Prayer is called to at a time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew. 629

Salat Jumu?ah ( &#1616 is not given in this form and no timing mentioned.
it could be any of the prayers (salawat) mentioned in the quran on a busy friday
and its not a daily prayer

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=62&vid=9

peace

Samia

O you who believe, when the Prayer is called to at a time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew. 629

Salat Jumu?ah ( &#1616 is not given in this form and no timing mentioned.

The fact that we are asked to cease all selling (work) means that it is during the day and neither at dawn nor at ishaa. These times are for our rest, so practically we cannot hold a congregational salaat.

According to the understanding that "wustaa" means middle, which salaat would be "wustaa" on the day of gathering (dawn, sunset, ishaa and jum3a)?

stefan_rosty

Peace Stefan,

022.061
YUSUFALI That is because Allah merges night into day, and He merges day into night, and verily it is Allah Who hears and sees (all things).
PICKTHAL That is because Allah maketh the night to pass into the day and maketh the day to pass into the night, and because Allah is Hearer, Seer.
SHAKIR That is because Allah causes the night to enter into the day and causes the day to enter into the night, and because Allah is Hearing, Seeing.
KHALIFA It is a fact that GOD merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and that GOD is Hearer, Seer.

The only way that "night" can be merged into daylight and daylight can be merged into "night" is if "night" starts at sunset and ends after daybreak. So what we call in Arabic "layl" is actually equivalent to what is in English "twilight-night-twilight".

This is why when the god wants to point out the dark part of the "layl", he uses the term "ghasak al-layl" (the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight", i.e. the middle part that we call in English "night&quot

Persist in the learning connection at the rubbing of the sun (i.e. at sunset) until the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight" and the intense reading at daybreak, indeed the intense reading at daybreak is witnessed.

The translation that you provided is not correct. It doesn't make sense to say "until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night". I think that what you mean is "from the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night". As explained above, this is the time in the great reading decribed as "'isha". If you look at all the occurences of the word "wusta" and its derivatives, you will see that it means "balanced". So this is an attribute that we should maintain, not an additional timing.

As a side note, you really ought to translate the word "quran" in 1778. The expression "the Quran at dawn" doesn't make any sense.

Peace,

Ayman

Thou shall hold the contact-method until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.1778

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=17&vid=78

And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank. 1779

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=17&vid=79

three periods of time are described

first salat (&#1604 until ?( )? second salat (&#1609 until ?( )? third salat ?( )?

or ( &#1616 then ( ) then ( &#1609 then ( ) then ( &#1569 then ( )

and the cycle goes on .

and ( ) is after ( ) which is within ( ) the near part of the night or the early night

stefan_rosty

The fact that we are asked to cease all selling (work) means that it is during the day and neither at dawn nor at ishaa. These times are for our rest, so practically we cannot hold a congregational salaat.

According to the understanding that "wustaa" means middle, which salaat would be "wustaa" on the day of gathering (dawn, sunset, ishaa and jum3a)?

i think the day is for work and sunset is for salat.

when the people were called to salat at the time of the gathering maybe at sunset, some traders were making money from trades, because other traders are holding salat.

thats why they were told to drop their selling

and it could be at the sunset

AlFajr

Peace to all.

The ritual I detailed was a product of my researches as a faithful quraan alone muslim.
The truth is that people will spend countless hours trying to uncover the proper way of performing salaat according to the Quraan. Unfortunately they will never find it.
The Quraan is not an educational text, meaning there is nothing in the Quraan which is truly new. It's all about clarifying the mistakes of the past communities and explaining the nature of Allah. So you will never find a detailed explanation of Salaat, nor how to give Zakaat, or even the process of becoming a Muslim (shahaadah).
The Quraan is a wonderful and edifying scripture. It must however take its place alongside the other scritpures of Allah.
Have a wonderful day,
Talib ben Abraham

Agreed, peace

LatifAbdullah

I'm going to try and address the question, however it was a little vague so if I don't please clarify exactly what your'e asking.

The arabic in that verse Fs'ali Al-Ladhna Yaqra'na Al-Kitba Min Qablika literally translates "contact those who read/recite of the scripture from before you." By examing the arabic grammar and tense the the term qablika (before) is emphasizing al kitaba (the book). So it's not refering to the people from before the prophet/apostle Mustafa Muhammad Al Amin, who of course would all be dead, its referring to consulting to contemporary people who read the earlier scriptures.
Now in regards to the earlier scriptures not existing, we have clear historical and quraanic evidence they did.

From the Quraan
Allah ta'Ala actually gives us a quote from one of the earlier scriptures in Al Quraan.

Wa Laqad Katabn F Az-Zubri Min Badi Adh-Dhikri 'Anna Al-'Ara Yarithuh Ibdiya A-lina
"And We have already written in the Psalms (Al Zubuwr) after the reminder that 'the righteous will inherit the earth'.?

We know from the Quraan, that the Zubuwr was given to the Prophet/Apostle Dawud ibn Yishay(Qur 4163) and the quote being referenced is Psalms 2739

"The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell therein for ever."

So we know atleast one book which was in existence contemporary to the Prophet Muhammad was consultable. We still actually have that text today for consultation.

So atleast in one sense could muhammad have consulted those who read Az Zubuwr (the psalms for further information).

This allows us to address a more pertinent question. That being was the Torah that was referenced in the Quraan the same Torah as given to Moses and Aaron.
As adherents of the Quraan, we all can atleast that a base line opinion we all hold is that whatever Allah has told us in the Quraan is the truth beyond doubt. Whenever Allah makes a statement, we accept it as literal fact.
We also accept that Allah is Al Haqq, the 52nd of the 99+1 attributes (al Asma wa Husna) that stems from the arabic root haqqa meaning factual, truthful beyond doubt, reality. So therefore Allah does not lie. We also accept that Allah is also Al Rashiyd, the 98th of the 99+1 attributes (al asma wal husna) that stems from the arabic root rashada which means rightly guided, clearly directed.
I make that point to stress this point Allah tells the yahudiya (mistranslated jews) to follow a Quraan contemporary to Muhammad's time, and an injiyl contemporary to Muhammad's time.
Allah tells the Muhammad about the yahudiya

Wa Kayfa Yuakkimnaka Wa Indahumu At-Tawratu Fh ukmu Allhi Thumma Yatawallawna Min Badi Dhlika Wa M 'l'ika Bil-Mu'uminna
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers. Qur 543

The same Torah (Al Tawraat) that Allah says one verse later

'Inn 'Anzaln At-Tawrata Fh Hud?an Wa Nrun Yakumu Bih An-Nabyna Al-Ladhna 'Aslam Lilladhna Hd Wa Ar-Rabbnyna Wa Al-'Abru Bim Astufi? Min Kitbi Allhi Wa Kn `Alayhi Shuhad'a Fal Takhshaw An-Nsa Wa Akhshawn Wa L Tashtar Bi'yt Thamanan Qallan Wa Man Lam Yakum Bim 'Anzala Allhu Fa'l'ika Humu Al-Kfirna
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which is guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers. (Qur 544)

and then Allah also gives us a reference point to which Torah he was speaking of when he says
Wa Katabn Alayhim Fh 'Anna An-Nafsa Bin-Nafsi Wa Al-Ayna Bil-`Ayni Wa Al-'Anfa Bil-'Anfi Wa Al-'Udhuna Bil-'Udhuni Wa As-Sinna Bis-Sinni...
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds... (Qur 545)

(where he refernces Deut 1921 Show no pity life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth)

and then instructs them, and remember all of this contemporary to the prophet/apostle Mustafa Muhammad Al Amin, to
Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lastum `Al? Shay'in att? Tuqm At-Tawrata Wa Al-'Injla Wa M 'Unzila 'Ilaykum Min Rabbikum
literal translation "Tell them this- 'O people of the book you have nothing unless you stand to The Torah and the Injiyl and what here is revealed to them from their Sustainer." (Qur 56

So the reason why I pointed out Allah as Al Haqq wa Al Rashiyd is that Allah telling Muhammad to tell the the people of the book to follow the Torah and the Injiyl means they must still have been in existence at least until 610 ad when the Quran was revealed. If not that makes Allah a liar telling people to follow books that no longer exist and not a right guide of he's attempting to guide people to following a book which does not exist.

This is where science and history come into play. Thanks to the science of archaeology, or the study of materials relating to the past, we can test that claim. All we need to do is set up an experiment. Using 610 as a base date for which to anchor our experiment all we need to do is check the archaeological record for two possibilities

a) did torahs exost before and after 610 ad
b) do the torahs that existed before 610 ad correlate to the Torahs that existed after 610 ad.

Well we can satisfy point A relatively quickly. We an refer to the Septuagint, the Torah translated into Greek around 400 B.C. The Dead Sea Scrolls were from about 100 B.C. to after the time of Christ, and we can compare them with our Bibles today. Aramaic Targums are translations made around the time of Jesus. The Dead Sea Scrolls are about 95,000 fragments from 867 manuscripts of the Old Testament and other writings. About 1/3 of the Dead Sea scrolls are manuscripts of the Old Testament.
Infact a cataloguing of the dead sea scroll texts shows us that the Dead Sea Scrolls can be divided into two categories?biblical and non-biblical. Fragments of every book of the Old Testament (Hebrew canon) have been discovered, except for the book of Esther. Qumran and the scrolls give us a true indicator because we know the site was abandoned in 68 ad after a siege by the romans. Based on various dating methods, including carbon 14, paleographic and scribal, the Dead Sea Scrolls were written during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 A.D. Many crucial biblical manuscripts (such as Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 61) date to at least 100 B.C. As such, the Dead Sea Scrolls have revolutionized textual criticism of the Old Testament.
The amazing thing about the scrolls is that every text of the Torah found, while having minor differences, actually agrees with the Torah we have now(the masoretic text). also the septuagint we have copies of it from ancient times as well as modern times to examine it and while having neglible differences still agrees with the Torah we have now, satisfying point B.
So the reality for which most Muslims want to hide from but true students of the Quraan can adhere to is that there is original Torah material in the Torah possessed by the jews of atleast Muhammad's time, that correspond to the Troahs we have now, for which Muhammad could have reasonably sought consultation from.
It is only those who seek to alter or rewrite history due to blind faith to unprovable theories that will fight that fact.
In reference to what part of the Torah still in existance is Mosaic, we have that portion. That portion was kept by the descedants of the prophet/apostle Aaron and honored by the children of israel until the rebellion of the 10 northern tribes from Judah (and benjamin) in 915 ad. The Northern kingdom produced its own Torah to justify its religious innovations called the E text. The southern Judahites produced their own Torah to justify their religious observance as well called the J text. The descendants of Aaron called the Aaronids, so called because they were descended from the prophet/apostle Aharown/Haruwn/Aaron preserved the true Torah as they always had. Later under the apostle Uzair/Ezraa/Ezra were the 3 texts plus the deuteronomistic histories wedded together into one text now referred to as the pentateuch. Once we unwind the srciptural cord, we very clearly can decipher the P text from the other texts and it stands on its own. It contains the true law codes given by Allah ta'Ala to the Prophet/apostle Mosheh/Muwsa/Moses and recorded by Aaron.
All of the above is referenced by such books as "Who Wrote The Bible" by Richard Freeman.
However Bigmo you are wrong when you posted this at Internet Infidels Discussion Board on september 23, 2007 at 130 pm-

"The Torah and Gospel are revelations. The problem is that men do not know how to shut up. There is a lot of information there in some of these scriptures. But they are all emphasizing a common theme. Its not only in Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but all religions have similar sources but people after their founders talk too much. God is silent."

The gospels we have now are not revelations but have proven to be religious texts composed by various christian communities Matthew (written 65 a.d), Mark (written 41 a.d.), Luke (written 58 a.d.), and John (written 98 a.d.). They are texts written from various source texts, which 2 (the Quelle document(the real injiyl) and the Signs gospel) have been documented assuch and are the basis for the Synoptic gospels. Only the gospel of John reveals no source text quoting, but a consistent work from start to finish. That is because it was written by Yowkhanan/Yuhanna/John while in prison on the island of Patmos in 96-100 ad to service the believers in Messiah which were in the greek diaspora.

So sorry Bigmo, you are wrong.

Peace to all,
Latif Abdullah

Bigmo