Polish Children Vs Muslim Children
-
People like this fester hatred and get The Sun more sales.
-
Salaam,
Angel and OPF, what am I missing here? ???
I just read the article posted above and don't understand where you guys are seeing hate etc?
Plus Angel, I remember you mentioned the following in regards to the schooling system thereThe only thing I know is that England has the worst education in the West according to UNICEF and 1 in 3 British Muslims leave school without any qualifications. I passed (barely ).
From your warnings Angel, I felt I ought to searched other posts made by poster above and within those threads found you said
I have no desire to keep in touch with my cultural roots, and Urdu is the most irritating language on earth, whenever I hear someone speaking it I just want to smack them, it irritates me that much, you'll never meet a white person like that.
I understand and respect your own personal choice, and at the same time I believe that you are doing yourself a dis-service. Please let me know what it is I've missed here, because I'm not getting why you guys are against what has been posted, but again, please know I don't live there either. So, any insight would be appreciated. peace
-
ifthikar is a spammer yes and we have gotten some bs from him on fm before
but i agree with m-mehdi this time he is right about the difference of treatment between a muslim community and a new, much smaller one, which is taken into account just because they too are European. it is straight racism
which does not mean that i changed my position on faith school, don't want any or let it be inter-faith schools to teach them kids tolerance
peace
lk -
iftikhar is WRONG, we live in a Christian country so why should people like him demand sharia law in school?
I am sure you all can give me the names of soooooooooo many Muslim countries that will fund Christian schools, i mean seriously the list of Muslim countries that will find Christian schools is sooooo long.
As for 1 in 3 Muslim's leaving school without any qualifications it is because British Muslims are genrally poorer and end up in the most crappiest schools, it has NOTHING to do with the fact that we don't have sharia in school.
And he made a disgusting racist comment about white atheist / Christian kids
Institutional racism, incivility, drug, crime, binge drinking, anti-social behaviour, high rate of abortion and an increase in teenage pregnancies are common part of life in state schools. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity.
How dare he be so openly racist towards white people! > If a white person made an equally racist generalisation about Muslims then s/he would be dead meat!
-
Salaam,
Angel and OPF, what am I missing here? ???
I just read the article posted above and don't understand where you guys are seeing hate etc?
Plus Angel, I remember you mentioned the following in regards to the schooling system there
From your warnings Angel, I felt I ought to searched other posts made by poster above and within those threads found you saidI understand and respect your own personal choice, and at the same time I believe that you are doing yourself a dis-service. Please let me know what it is I've missed here, because I'm not getting why you guys are against what has been posted, but again, please know I don't live there either. So, any insight would be appreciated. peaceThe Daily Mail and Sun love to preach against those evil Muslims demanding that Shariah law and Muslim-only schools are instituted in the UK, and look what we have here...
-
Salaam,
Thanks everyone for posting on this. I think I'm starting to get a better understanding. We have a similar issue here with immigration from south of the border. It seems some of the concerns can be the same. Even though we hear mostly the issues in the media cover the job markets etc.. the social issues are still present but less talked about because "race" quickly becomes a main point..
my limited view on these issues would have me think if a school is to be based on a single faith only, it ought to be funded by the that particular faith itself. That would only make sense to me since if we are to attempt to live in a society with any type of intergration where everyone is chipping in these types of issues would quickly arise. So, Elke I agree with you too on this. When it comes to state funded schools, I don't think faith can have that kind of room in it.
Samia, good point! I did a search on Google to see what I can find out and found this lil article
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20070622/ai_n19327365
But also found on the wikipedia link that he is Catholic. With that I could understand where it would put off those of other faiths if they feel their politicians are using their powers to be only cover "their own" sort of say. I'm not sure exactly if that is what is happening but only saying that I can understand how one group could jump to those conclusions based on the faith of a certain politician.OPF, thanks. I understand what you mean, and the same I wonder if those publications you mentioned are trying to sway speech in such a way too. Meaning, if people hold back their speech for fear of public opnion isn't that a form of oppressing speech in general?
Angel, I have a hard time buying the idea that ' since one lives in a Christian country etc'.. I find it counter productive when it comes to the idea of intergration, which seems to be the central idea that you support(if I'm not mistaken). I don't know if this has anything to do with anything but I found this article interesting since the topic here is talking about Polish childeren. Again, these types of issues have been going on for a long while. There are many pains of intergration that we ought to learn to process and a positive mannor. Also I believe it is very important to understand the difference between tradition and culture.
Anyway here's the article
http//www.carpatho-rusyn.org/rich/life.htmLife in a Polish Environment.
............It is sad to look at those Lemkos who choose the "undignified but convenient" way out. They are afraid of their own shadows! They change their first and last names (like one man who had changed his name twice to Bazyli and Waclaw, although the Poles still called him Vasyl'.. They no longer speak Lemko even at home. They are teaching their children only Polish, for which, however, they achieve the exact opposite of what they wish. In the end, Poles despise them instead of respecting them (always mindful of their own several million strong Polish diaspora abroad which similarly should preserve its national identity within a foreign environment). At the same time, fellow Lemkos look down with pity on those who are so desperately trying to become Polish. Couples who are in such mixed Polish-Lemko marriages are isolated from both groups; hence they are attempting to create social groups of "mixed people," who seem to think they are being "assimilated." Yet, at times the Lemko speech of their parents is heard and it grates unpleasantly. It could be at a baptism party, where hearing a Lemko song will gnaw at one's insides. At the same time, the pain of guilt from trying to run from one's own culture will arise and then be soothed by drowning in alcohol. - from Life in a Polish Environment.
Thanks again guys! I pray that Iftikhar can take the time to discuss some of these issues because it really seems to be a topic of importance when we see it brings out such strong emotions in us.
peace.. peace
-
Salam,
Thanks Angel, I understand what you are saying. I pray there can be a good balance one of these days. Btw.. FYI, I never sent any list. ???
Peace.. . peace
M Islamic schools are a barrier to integration
they should be banned
education is about knowledge not fairy tales.
And thanks for the extremely long list of statefunded Christian schools in Muslim countries.
-
Peace,
Angel,
M_Mehdi is being so nice to you it is sickening, and the article he posted for you "Life in a polish environment'' just went right over your head. What is wrong with you?
I don't care if you like Iftikhar or not and I can't defend his previous posts but everything that you have accused him of in this post is false and slanderous.
Institutional racism, incivility, drug, crime, binge drinking, anti-social behaviour, high rate of abortion and an increase in teenage pregnancies are common part of life in state schools. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity.
and you said
How dare he be so openly racist towards white people! If a white person made an equally racist generalisation about Muslims then s/he would be dead meat!
What iftikhar said has nothing to do with racism against whites or athiests. Where are you getting this trash from? Hell don't you think that institutional racism, incivility, drug, crime, binge drinking, anti-social behavior and the rest are barbarisms and things that Muslim parents should not want their children exposed to? And since when are white and Muslim opposing concepts? Who told you this? This is the same idiocy that Irshad Manji stated in her book (which makes it worse because she put it in a book) by saying that Muslims oppressed black Africans in Uganda (like these totally distinct concepts), while Idi Amin the one who kicked out East Indian Muslims was a Muslim and black African himself.
As it concerns the the British school system you yourself have said
The only thing I know is that England has the worst education in the West according to UNICEF and 1 in 3 British Muslims leave school without any qualifications. I passed (barely ).
So yeah, Muslims from the Subcontinent nor other low perfroming ethnicities can fully blame schools, they also need to blame themsleves. But isn't this what Iftikhar is suggesting? Schools that do a better job at intergrating the cultures of these minorities with societal and educational success? Just like The Catholic politician suggested for Polish children? Is Catholic schooling also based on fairy tales? Is Muslim schooling not capable of what Catholic schoolings has been capable of, especially since we know that Catholic trinitarians have just as many "fairy tale'' beliefs as traditional Muslims.
It is clear that the racism Angel is all yours. You hate your own culture and your own people. You believe in integration like the Borgs in star trek, that is not intergration that is assimlation, where the European athiest culture is considered the preferable and superior culture.
Do you not realize all the things you have said?
M Islamic schools are a barrier to integration
You mean ASSIMILATION.
they should be banned
What kind of ANTI freedom of religion trash is this? Don't you believe in the Quran and in freedom of religion?
screw you pig, i'm getting sick of your rants!
Yeah... this helps nope
you are forgetting the fact that we live in a CHRISTIAN country, since you hate it so much why don't you f**k off back to Pakistan. And you should be grateful about the fact that we do have some Islamic schools here in England funded by the state, how many Muslim countries will fund non-muslim faith based schools? you should count your blessings and stop being an ungrateful pig.
Again you believe in ASSIMILATION, not integration. And you trash Islamic schools and silently support Catholic schools. Is this because you really believe
in assimilation and favor European Western tradtions just as much as Eurocentric white supremacists?Quote from Angel on September 10, 2007, 124013 AM
I have no desire to keep in touch with my cultural roots, and Urdu is the most irritating language on earth, whenever I hear someone speaking it I just want to smack them, it irritates me that much, you'll never meet a white person like that.That's disgusting Angel and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Before you accuse me of racism i would like to point out that I am a British Pakistani.
Do you think you can't be a self-hating racist? I am Afro-American and we have plenty of those. They have bought into the Eurocentric white is right mindset so much they resent their very skin color. Things have been changing for us since the 60's as before we had alot more people like that. What we have now more are the rebellious, desperates who have been so disallusioned with the Eurocentric white is right mindset that they don't care anymore and would rather manifest the negative stereotypes against them and tell the White people who think like this to f**k off then be patient, keep faith in God and do what they can for their own betterment realizing that the wicked will have their punishment on the day of judgement. It is hard however.
For other brown people who, obviously having ancient Caucasian stocks in them which shows in their features and having been brainwashed into denying the black in them and praising the Caucaisian in them, all the while wanting to be European this is even harder. You will find that Non-black Latin American suffer from the same complexes in their countries and even more so when they come to the U.S. Non-Muslim indians are some of the most racist people I have ever met. They would love to be purely Caucasian (and despite the fact that they are mixed with the Black Dravidians found to the south of them) they do not respect their brown skin and either marry white or marry indian as a strict policy (although they don't like to marry Black Indians many of whom since ancient times have been considered Untouchables). For Subcontinent Muslims like you it is even harder because you belong to a culture and a religion that is at odds with Western Culture in many ways, especially nowadays. When you move to western lands you live that dichotomy within yourselves, wishing to be white but hating the fact that you have to be them to be in. Believe me, this is as old as the hills and is the Nothern European Legacy wherever this people are. All colored minorities go through it and it is aggravated if you are from a Muslim culture (This is one of the reasons many Black Americans pick Islam as it is a way to value themselves without this racist European taint as Islam has had strong Black elements since its founding). European Muslims who are physically Caucasian don't go through this and they have the choice to accept Islam openly (in which case they will always be met with shock that Caucasian Muslims even exist) or they can just Assimilate because they are the right color. You are just living the reality of being brown in a white world. Learn to accept it and trust in God. Picking camps or self-hating is not the answer, Angel. Please mature some and learn. Believe me you are not alone in this struggle and real racism (hating people because of thei race, instead of denouncing ungodly trends in behavior wherever it is found) is destructive even when it is directed toward self. As of now you are a rightwing Christian white supremacist or Athiest Eurocentric's dream and you don't even realize it.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Anwar I don't have the time to read your long post yet, i'll give a detailed response later.
let me point out that iftikar posts his crap on other forums too, he has made derogatory comments about white atheist / Christians in the past, both direct and indirect.
Britain is a great country, why the hell should our tax money pay for sharia to be implemented in schools AKA so-called "islamic schools"? this is a Christian country, the people of Britain should not be expected to fund Islamic schools.
-
What iftikhar said has nothing to do with racism against whites or athiests. Where are you getting this trash from? Hell don't you think that institutional racism, incivility, drug, crime, binge drinking, anti-social behavior and the rest are barbarisms and things that Muslim parents should not want their children exposed to?
ofcause no muslim parent would want that. But campaigning for Islamic schools is arrogently implying that 'the kafir are the problem and we want to seperate our kids'.
And since when are white and Muslim opposing concepts?
ofcause they are not i never implied they were.
I specifically stated white athiest / christian (most british chritians are secular), i didn't call them "native brits" as that is misleading, but I am talking about the white-angolo saxon english people, again that too is somewhat misleading, iftikhar knows I am talking about the 'goray' (urdu word), but lets not turn this into a skin color issue when it is a religious one.
So yeah, Muslims from the Subcontinent nor other low perfroming ethnicities can fully blame schools, they also need to blame themsleves. But isn't this what Iftikhar is suggesting?
no Iftikhar is demanding faith based schools for Muslim Pakistanis, he's been campaigning for them for years.
Schools that do a better job at intergrating the cultures of these minorities with societal and educational success? Just like The Catholic politician suggested for Polish children? Is Catholic schooling also based on fairy tales? Is Muslim schooling not capable of what Catholic schoolings has been capable of, especially since we know that Catholic trinitarians have just as many "fairy tale'' beliefs as traditional Muslims.
i live in a christian country and Muslims here enjoy the rights that many christians in Muslim countries don't enjoy.
It is clear that the racism Angel is all yours.
i've never been a racist.
You hate your own culture and your own people.
I don't hate British culture and I am not ashamed of my Pakistani heritage, nor am I proud of it either, i'm completely indifferent to it, why should it even matter, theres only ONE race and that is the human race, our color of skin is just as irrelevent as our eye and hair color. BTW I don't hate Pakistanis and I love Imran Khan. I am a bit confused when you say "your own people", British Pakistanis are not my "own people", stop dividing everything into segments, it's attitudes like that which divide people.
btw I hate Urdu like I hate the German language, just like I hate the australian accent, and i also can't stand the the trampy "chav" accent.
What kind of ANTI freedom of religion trash is this? Don't you believe in the Quran and in freedom of religion?
this is issue is not black and white (no pun intended). There are many reasons why I oppose faith based schools, steriotypical comments about other "groups" thrive in such environments.
Yeah... this helps
i was just venting
Again you believe in ASSIMILATION, not integration. And you trash Islamic schools and silently support Catholic schools. Is this because you really believe in assimilation and favor European Western tradtions just as much as Eurocentric white supremacists?
oh now blacks and Asians can't be christians either?
I don't support faith based schools at all.
how many muslim governments fund chritian schools? why should my chritian country fund islamic schools when no other muslim goverment that i am aware of will fund christian schools?
That's disgusting Angel and you should be ashamed of yourself.
i have no interest in paki culture, mainly because I don't intend to go to Pakistan. If I prefer Italian food to paki food do you thing that is disgusting? if i prefer hollywood movies to paki movies is that disgusting too?
Also I wish Pakistan was never carved out from India, the seperation only proved that different religions could not live together, over half a million people died just in the partition, then there was West Pakistans massacre of East Pakistan which came as a result of the partision and the bloodshead has anguished me.
Do you think you can't be a self-hating racist?
i don't hate my self nor do I hate pakistanis in general.
I am Afro-American and we have plenty of those. They have bought into the Eurocentric white is right mindset so much they resent their very skin color.
I love my brown skin, but not in a "racially superior" way, I also love my black hair, i always get complements for it.
you've completely misunderstood what i have said.
the stupid spell check is not working so ignore the typos
-
Peace,
Angel I see a little back peddling here but I can generally accept your response. However I only have the follwing to say and after this I feel I will be able to official declare peace.
But campaigning for Islamic schools is arrogently implying that 'the kafir are the problem and we want to seperate our kids'.
To a certain extent yes. However people are free to separate on moral ground. If they are doing it on racial grounds then of course I disagree but if their problem is the moral decay in schools and society and then maybe the kaafir are the problem as it concerns to moral decay in the Muslim community in Britain. Now there will always just be corrupt, hypocritical Muslims and some hold onto it because it is a part of their culture more than apart of their morality and relationship with God. So this is true for the sincere but a false and sad pretext for those who just want to segregate culturally or even on racial boundaries because Britains are mainly non Pakistani and non-Muslim. That means Non-goray against goray, as you call them.
no Iftikhar is demanding faith based schools for Muslim Pakistanis, he's been campaigning for them for years.
Like I said I can't vouch for his previous posts. However, he should be campaigning for Muslim schools and that is it. Campaigning for pakistani Muslim schools would be like campaigning for Irish Catholic schools. That is promoting ethnic discrimination, however an Islamic school like a catholic school for catholics is there to strengthen the morality of Muslims.
I live in a christian country and Muslims here enjoy the rights that many christians in Muslim countries don't enjoy.
Firstly you should say a secular country with a Christian minority. I live in a country like that too, the U.S. However just because Muslim countries are corrupt and we can't really expect these big and righteous steps from them, unfortunately. But that does not mean that Muslims there should not be able to enjoy the same rights as Catholics.
btw I hate Urdu like I hate the German language, just like I hate the australian accent, and i also can't stand the the trampy "chav" accent.
well German and the australian and chav accents aren't at the center of this conversation. And if this is so please keep your fickle, inimportant prejudices out of serious forums and conversations. You only damage your own image. Also if i could suggest please let these simple and unfair prejudices go no matter how benign you think they are.
this is issue is not black and white (no pun intended). There are many reasons why I oppose faith based schools, steriotypical comments about other "groups" thrive in such environments.
No pun taken. However if you are opposed to faith based schools then please dont target islamic schools. And if you think this guy is being insincere in his effort then talk about that. We don't need your venting and hate talk.
oh now blacks and Asians can't be christians either?
I don't support faith based schools at all.
how many muslim governments fund chritian schools? why should my chritian country fund islamic schools when no other muslim goverment that i am aware of will fund christian schools?
Well you know I didn't say the first. Obviously there are black Africans, Black Asians and non-black Asians who are Christians as well. Secondly as I said before please don't discrimate if you oppose faith based schools. Oppose them all and give some fair reasons please.
As it concerns Muslims states funding Christian states, it should not boil down to a if they don't do it why should we. Britain does have to operate on the petty level of most Muslim states and many Muslims hope and appreicate the fact that many western countries are beyond this. We know that Muslm countries are f**d up. And I would be glad to see support for Christians and Jews to excercise their freedom of education and secular countries with Muslim majorities fund each fairly if they are going to fund faith based schools.Lastly, I hope you understand that what you have said about your culture is not the same as saying your preference for different foods. You said some pretty nasty things about the culture you grew up in (whether you disown it or not).
I hope you don't hate your self or anyone for what they are, even if it is the culture you descend from. And there is obvioiusly no reason to think you are racial superior. Is a white cow superior to a black cow? That is all that our colors add up to, the differen color and hair textures of cows to pick one species of animal. Furthermore when we say race I think it is obvious that we don't mean species. We do have different human races and we have ethnicities that are mixtures of these races to different degrees. But it in my mind is irrelevant and unintelligent to think that when we speak of races we are acting like we are different. This makes me think that I guess some people do see race like this. But let me say that no African, African American, Dominican or Non-Puerto Rican Carribean i have ever met has ever acted like this. (Some whiter puerto ricans despite their known admixture with blacks and the presence of blacks still on the island exagerate blackness and their dislike for it to the point where they do act like blacks are a different species). The reaction might differ with the Chinese (in particular), but their is still a general acceptance of everyones humanity, an acceptance that lacks in certain cultures with certain races. I find that among American whites find Asians more "human" than blacks. Racism usually has a historical basis and is not really based in peoples natural inability to accept differences in others.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Iftikhar is campaigning for schools both for religious reasons and clearly he says that he wants them just for Pakis.
You can get Paki / halal food served in some public schools, and you can learn urdu in schools where there are many Pakistanis attending.
half the population in england are chritians. sure their numbers are decreasing since athiesm is on the rise, but they are not a minority, well not yet anyway.
I can't stand the holier then thou the kafir are immoral attitude which reeks through his letters. Faith based schools are a no-no. Since muslims believe that life is a test why should going to a public school even matter?
As for Paki culture there is nothing remotely morel about things like honour killing and forced marriages, both, especially the latter are a serious problems. I would like to distance my self from things like that.
As for me disliking certain accents its got nothing to do with being prejudice, my english teacher hated my trampy Yorkshire accent and she made that perfectly clear, so I have modified the way i talk because I know relatives from out of town also find it irritating.