regarding kabah

Wakas

Dear Raj-ah,

I know it might take a little time to organise the info for the thread, no problem, just pm me when done in case I miss it.

As to your comments on logic, let me repeat

A lesson in logic of The Quran

If person A believes in something (lets says traditional ahadith) and person B does not. Person B can still use traditional ahadith in their argument/discussion to disprove person A's position, e.g. by finding contradictions, inconsistancies, errors within traditional ahadith themselves etc.

This method is even cited in The Quran itself when those who disbelieve and doubt The Quran are asked to find an inconsistancy in The Quran or bring a chapter like The Quran etc.

You suggest since sister Samia discarded source ABC, she cannot use ABC. Look at the Quranic example, do you honestly think the disbelievers and doubters reverenced/accepted The Quran? No. They discarded it, yet were still asked to find an inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc using The Quran as their standard/source, even though they have discarded it / do not believe in it. Your point has no basis, unless you believe the disbelivers/doubters accepted The Quran and did not discard it, which would not make them disbelievers/doubters. Thus clearly, this will present a contradiction in your view.

Samia

For example Samia tells me that Islamic history is a crap and then she tells me According to Islamic history,this or that event took place, just to support her argument. Then surely fun will be made out of her post.

Salaam Raj-ah

I am addressing you citing the evidence that you accept 100%. We may accept the same truth but with different evidences. Do you want me to say, e.g, according to archeological evidence, knowing that you don't take these evidences seriously if they contradict with your "islamic" sources? I had this experience with you in "Who built the ka'aba that's in Mecca" thread, when you discarded even reasoning for some nonesense uttered by an anonymous scholar, as your believing that Mecca is Faarraan , or that the meaning of "masjidan Diraaran in " means "a mosque called Zirar, or "a guy called Zirar built a mosque" because some "Muslim scholar" said so.

I agree that this room was, and still is, full of idols, but not because islamic history tells me that and there is no other evidence for it. It is because there is concrete evidence for that from the quraan and extra more reliable sources (more reliable than islamic history). If islamic history reports this, fine, but that still does not make it a reliable source, or a source of evidence per se for me to use.

Do you really need such explanation?

Allen

Salaam Raj-ah

I agree that this room was, and still is, full of idols, but not because islamic history tells me that and there is no other evidence for it. It is because there is concrete evidence for that from the quraan and extra more reliable sources (more reliable than islamic history).
Do you really need such explanation?

Would you please give evidence "from the Quran"?
What are those "more reliable source" ?

ayman

Peace Allen,

Would you please give evidence "from the Quran"?

I thought this should be clear to any monotheist. The god tells us in the great reading that we shouldn't associate anything with him, including stone idols such as the ones in Mecca.

What are those "more reliable source" ?

How about your own eyes. Are your eyes reliable?

Look, here is idol #1 dressed and naked

http//img519.imageshack.us/img519/8065/2kabahdressft8.jpg

Here is idol #2. This is one ugly piece of filth isn't it?

http//img300.imageshack.us/img300/7017/6hajraswadlc7.jpg

Here is filthy idol #3

http//img180.imageshack.us/img180/2779/9maqamibrahimfq5.jpg

Don't let the golden cage fool you, from close up, it really stinks

http//img120.imageshack.us/img120/8995/92maqamibrahim1sj5.jpg

Here is idol #4, you know the one that morons believe "heals all ills"

http//www.sgs.org.sa/content/images/zam_pumping_system_of-_zamz.jpg

Not the flowing stream that you imagined is it?

You can empirically verify all of this with your own eyes.

Peace,

Ayman

Allen

Would you please give evidence "from the Quran"?
What are those "more reliable source" ?

Samia's statement is

I agree that this room was, and still is, full of idols, but not because islamic history tells me that and there is no other evidence for it. It is because there is concrete evidence for that from the quraan and extra more reliable sources (more reliable than islamic history).

What is the evidence from the Quran that this room was/is full of idols.you provide the proof.As far as your rest of pictures are concerned ,they show that you are just ignorant of concept of idols.
Please first provide the proof from the Quran that this room was full of idols.
Waiting for Proof from the Quran.

Raj-ah

Samia

Salaam Raj-ah

Is this official? When some terrorist muslims burn churches and synagogues, would you accept that it is "Muslims" who see this buildings as a threat to them?

US Presidential Canidate
?If it is up to me, we are going to explain that an attack on this homeland of that nature would be followed by an attack on the holy sites in Mecca and Medina,?

President Bush (elected twice by millions of voters)
"With the might of God on our side we will triumph over Iraq. God will watch over our troops and grant us a victory over the threat of Saddam's army. God will bless us and keep us safe in the coming battle."
freethought media
our battle cry, "God Bless America", has now become the capstone of the entire war.

According to a front page story in the July 1, 2003 issue of "Haaretz," one of Israel's leading newspapers, George W. Bush told an Arab meeting on June 24, that
"GOD TOLD HIM TO BOMB IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN."

These are only few examples SAM to let you know that the HATE is OFFICIAL.

SAM

Is it now about its walls and bricks? So you really do pray to it?
The Saudis also demolished it. I wonder if Muslims stopped praying or stayed without a qibla until it was reconstructed! The cubic room underwent many destructions and demolishons since it was first erected.

Again you are trying to assume, the present building of KAABa has took many changes since its inception, and NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE BUILDING, it is the direction we are talking about. For example what is the importance of STATUE of Liberty? THE BUILDING or the purpose for which the building was built?

Do you really need such explanation?

Raj-ah

Dear Wakas

You suggest since sister Samia discarded source ABC, she cannot use ABC.

NO! I did not said that. Please read it again.

I said if she doesnot believe in Islamic History she cannot use it as an evidence in her support.
She can use it to point out contradiction in one's argument who believes the Islamic history is authentic.

Wakas

Look at the Quranic example, do you honestly think the disbelievers and doubters reverenced/accepted The Quran? No. They discarded it, yet were still asked to find an inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc using The Quran as their standard/source, even though they have discarded it / do not believe in it

Your answer is in your own paragraph, please read it agaIN ANd what I posted previously to arrive at a clear picture.

YEs Samia can use point #2 but not 1.

Raj-ah

Jaffar having a long nap;hah buddy.

Samia

Samia
US Presidential Canidate
?If it is up to me, we are going to explain that an attack on this homeland of that nature would be followed by an attack on the holy sites in Mecca and Medina,?

Is this your definition of "official"?

President Bush (elected twice by millions of voters)
"With the might of God on our side we will triumph over Iraq. God will watch over our troops and grant us a victory over the threat of Saddam's army. God will bless us and keep us safe in the coming battle."
freethought media
our battle cry, "God Bless America", has now become the capstone of the entire war.

According to a front page story in the July 1, 2003 issue of "Haaretz," one of Israel's leading newspapers, George W. Bush told an Arab meeting on June 24, that
"GOD TOLD HIM TO BOMB IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN."

They actually DID bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, with the blessings and indispensible help of the Servant of the Two Holy Harams (and the other Sunni Leaders)..

it is the direction we are talking about

Direction towards what?

THE BUILDING or the purpose for which the building was built?

What is the purpose for it? To point to a direction? Where does this direction point to? To the black cube. What is the importance of a black cube? It is not important per se, but its purpose. Which is? To point to a direction. Where does this direction point to...

.

Do you really need such explanation?

What do you think?

Bigmo

Is this your definition of "official"?

They actually DID bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, with the blessings and indispensible help of the Servant of the Two Holy Harams (and the other Sunni Leaders)..

Direction towards what?

What is the purpose for it? To point to a direction? Where does this direction point to? To the black cube. What is the importance of a black cube? It is not important per se, but its purpose. Which is? To point to a direction. Where does this direction point to...

.

What do you think?

So you don't think there is a Qibla? Do you face anything while you pray?

Samia

So you don't think there is a Qibla? Do you face anything while you pray?

Of course I believe there 's a "qibla" on which I focus while praying. Why would I face a "thing"?

unknownuser

(&#1640

2198 There is no sin on you if you seek the Bounty of your Lord. Then when you leave 'Araf?t, remember All?h at the Mash'ar-il-Har?m. And remember Him as He has guided you, and verily, you were, before, of those who were astray.

Where/what is Mash'ar-il-Har?m?

Allen

Dear Ayman
Still waiting for your reply about "Concrete Proof from the Holy Quran for existing of idols in the Baitullah "
Regards

Samia

Raj-ah

I know reminding you of this

when you discarded even reasoning for some nonesense uttered by an anonymous scholar, as your believing that Mecca is Faarraan , or that the meaning of "masjidan Diraaran in " means "a mosque called Zirar, or "a guy called Zirar built a mosque" because some "Muslim scholar" said so.

Do you really need such explanation?

is quite embarrassing, but that's not an excuse to forfeit good manners and revert to name calling.

ayman

Peace Allen,

What is the evidence from the Quran that this room was/is full of idols.you provide the proof.As far as your rest of pictures are concerned ,they show that you are just ignorant of concept of idols.

Your self-denial shows that your love for those idols has blinded your god-given natural instinct. If you came upon those objects in your home town and saw a bunch of half-naked guys spinning around them and kissing and fondling them then you would surely think that you stumbled upon some weird pagan cult. The idols and rituals are the same, so the only reason you don't have the same natural god-given instinctive reaction towards the idols in Mecca is that now those are YOUR idols while the others are theirs. It is nothing but sheer arrogance.

Please first provide the proof from the Quran that this room was full of idols.
Waiting for Proof from the Quran.

Still waiting for your reply about "Concrete Proof from the Holy Quran for existing of idols in the Baitullah "

Please see 2226. If you have faith in 2226 then you should know that the house of the god cannot have idols. Since we verified with our god-given mind, eyes and instinct that there are idols in Mecca (plus the fact that the stone cube is a symbol of the Nabataean idol Allat mentioned in Chapter 53) so this cannot be the house of the god, pure and simple.

Peace,

Ayman

Allen

Peace Allen,

Your self-denial shows that your love for those idols has blinded your god-given natural instinct. If you came upon those objects in your home town and saw a bunch of half-naked guys spinning around them and kissing and fondling them then you would surely think that you stumbled upon some weird pagan cult. The idols and rituals are the same, so the only reason you don't have the same natural god-given instinctive reaction towards the idols in Mecca is that now those are YOUR idols while the others are theirs. It is nothing but sheer arrogance.

Please see 2226. If you have faith in 2226 then you should know that the house of the god cannot have idols. Since we verified with our god-given mind, eyes and instinct that there are idols in Mecca (plus the fact that the stone cube is a symbol of the Nabataean idol Allat mentioned in Chapter 53) so this cannot be the house of the god, pure and simple.

Peace,

Ayman

You write so much but always reluctant to copy past Quranic ayas.Why so ??
actual aya

2226
Please highlight the words which show that this "house " was full of idols
I hope you will not runaway as when you claimed that "Ramadaan" is "Ramdan or Rumdan" and you failed to provide any evidence for the existance of these words and ran away.
Kindly ,one request in future when you refer to aya please put their arabic text.
You said

plus the fact that the stone cube is a symbol of the Nabataean idol Allat mentioned in Chapter 53

Interesting .Again proof/evidence is required.

you said

The idols and rituals are the same

Idols are made of stone/wood/metal like copper or silver
It means "rituals " are also made of
-wood
-stone
-metal like copper /siver
Very interesting like "Rumdan/Ramdan'
Again proof is requisted.

ayman

Peace Allen,

You write so much but always reluctant to copy past Quranic ayas.Why so ??

I assume that most people here have access to the internet so they can look up the passage either in electronic or hard copy form. Thus, I only give the reference number, as I did for 2226. This saves time. Usually, I only provide the passage when I need to correct a translation through my own translation of it.

actual aya
2226
Please highlight the words which show that this "house " was full of idols

Please highlight the words above which show the following

That the house's place is in Mecca.
That the house is a black stone cubic room that was built by the Saudis and named Kaaba in 1996.
That the house has a bunch of black stones glued together with red epoxy and set in a vagina-shaped enclosure.
That we should kiss, touch, or wave at the so-called Black Stone.
That the house has an "eternal stream" called Zamzam next to it and that its water heals all ills.
That the house has a footprint next to it that is enclosed in a vase with a flowery motif.
That we should spin seven times around the black stone cube.
That by revering the above idols and performing those mindless rituals, our sins would be forgiven and return as newborn.

I hope you will not runaway as when you claimed that "Ramadaan" is "Ramdan or Rumdan" and you failed to provide any evidence for the existance of these words and ran away.

I provided the evidence and everyone on that thread saw it. It is not my problem that you are unable to read properly and keep going in circles.

Kindly ,one request in future when you refer to aya please put their arabic text.

I will put the Arabic text when necessary. On the other hand, we are having this discussion in English. If you know what the word "aya" or "ayah" or "ayat" or whatever you want means then you should translate it into English because it is not meaningless.

Interesting .Again proof/evidence is required.
you said
Idols are made of stone/wood/metal like copper or silver
It means "rituals " are also made of
-wood
-stone
-metal like copper /siver
Very interesting like "Rumdan/Ramdan'
Again proof is requisted.

Again, it is not my problem that you are unable to read properly. Please read again carefully what I wrote.

Peace,

Ayman

Allen

Peace Allen,

I assume that most people here have access to the internet so they can look up the passage either in electronic or hard copy form. Thus, I only give the reference number, as I did for 2226. This saves time. Usually, I only provide the passage when I need to correct a translation through my own translation of it.

Please highlight the words above which show the following

That the house's place is in Mecca.
That the house is a black stone cubic room that was built by the Saudis and named Kaaba in 1996.
That the house has a bunch of black stones glued together with red epoxy and set in a vagina-shaped enclosure.
That we should kiss, touch, or wave at the so-called Black Stone.
That the house has an "eternal stream" called Zamzam next to it and that its water heals all ills.
That the house has a footprint next to it that is enclosed in a vase with a flowery motif.
That we should spin seven times around the black stone cube.
That by revering the above idols and performing those mindless rituals, our sins would be forgiven and return as newborn.

I provided the evidence and everyone on that thread saw it. It is not my problem that you are unable to read properly and keep going in circles.

I will put the Arabic text when necessary. On the other hand, we are having this discussion in English. If you know what the word "aya" or "ayah" or "ayat" or whatever you want means then you should translate it into English because it is not meaningless.

Again, it is not my problem that you are unable to read properly. Please read again carefully what I wrote.

Peace,

Ayman

I was asking for the "Proof from the Quran for existing of idols in Baitullah " from Samia because she said so.You yourself interfered and gave the reference
Please see 2226.

I gave you the Aya
2226

instead of giving proof from it you are running away as usual.The thing you did when you put "Rumadan/Ramdan" theory and you did not provide any proof.
Still waiting for Proof from the Quran of "Existance of Idols in the baituallah".
You people avoid posting arabic text of Quranic verses not because you want to save time rather to cheat and deceive people.
How much time is spent in copy pasting one or two aya??
Still waiting for the "PROOF"

unknownuser

You will not find mention of idols in the "kaaba" nor will you find mention of a black cube with the above description because God does not command evil.

ayman

Peace Allen,

I was asking for the "Proof from the Quran for existing of idols in Baitullah " from Samia because she said so.You yourself interfered and gave the reference I gave you the Aya
2226
instead of giving proof from it you are running away as usual.The thing you did when you put "Rumadan/Ramdan" theory and you did not provide any proof.
Still waiting for Proof from the Quran of "Existance of Idols in the baituallah".
You people avoid posting arabic text of Quranic verses not because you want to save time rather to cheat and deceive people.
How much time is spent in copy pasting one or two aya??
Still waiting for the "PROOF"

The real house of the god has no idols in it according to 2226. Thus, if you have faith in 2226 then the black stone cube that you falsely call "Baitullah" cannot be the real house of the god. On the other hand, your logic is the same as thinking that by calling a duck "dog", it will become a dog. Is this clear enough for you to be able to read it?

Peace,

Ayman