Question regarding Zina

siki

4.15-17 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way,If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful,God accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will God turn in mercy For God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

what i think of the above passage is

NOT every time we are able to catch people committing illegal sexual intercourse with the help of 4 witnesses, label them Zanis, and hence punish them with 100 lashes.
But when we know about some one that she is into kinda illegal sex , and 4 people can independently testify or come up with different kinda incident reporting regarding her, then , the above mentioned procedure apply.

She is being blamed for committing Fahisha, not zina , because 4 people did not catch her doing the act.

siki

Allen

[NOT every time we are able to catch people committing illegal sexual intercourse with the help of 4 witnesses, label them Zanis, and hence punish them with 100 lashes.

siki

To prove the act of Zina ,four witnesses are not required.Please define
-Zina
-Provide evidence from the Quran that 4-witnesses are required to prove the ACT OF ZINA.

siki

24-4 , and those who accuse the chaste women , and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,,,

When we do not have 4 witnesses , it is only an accusation, and the women is still being called A Mohsinna(chaste woman), but when we have 4 witnesses who can testify ,

then what do we call her?

and then would it still be only an accusation?

Here the answer is in 24-2 and 3, people are being addressed with the label Zanis, and the punishment is being prescribed.

But if we have circumstantial evidence ( 4 reliable) about some one that she is up to some kinda illegal sex , then she is not being called a Zani but being blamed for committing Fahisha , and being confined.

Allen

24-4 , and those who accuse the chaste women , and then fail to produce 4 witnesses,,,,,

When we do not have 4 witnesses , it is only an accusation, and the women is still being called A Mohsinna(chaste woman), but when we have 4 witnesses who can testify ,

then what do we call her?

I hope you know the difference between
-Accused
-Convict
A person can be accused but it is not necessary that he is a convict also.
You see so many persons in the courts of law ,those are accused but later "crime " is not proved and those are exonerated.
Here Aya is describing
-Four witnesses for Accusation or charging NOT for the PROOF of act
-The provision of accussing with evidence of four witnesses is only and only for CHASTE ones not for every one.The Quran has not used the word " " but " ".

Think over the selection of words by the Holy Quran.

siki

Peace Allen

17-32 you shall not commit Zina, it is a gross sin(fahisha) and an evil behaviour.

25-68 , zina is being rated along with shirk and murder.

60-12 , again zina is being rated as a major offence.

Zina is a subset of Fahisha(17-32), and is being rated as one of the major offences.

lane defines zina as fornication/adultery, and the only other meaning is , to mount, mounting.

In my opinion, Zina is the actual act of an illegal intercourse, where as Fawahisha could include lot of other illegal sexual activities being seen/witnessed , minus the witnessing of the actual act of mounting/couplation..

24-4 and those who accuse the Mohsinnats and then fail to bring 4 witnesses, flog them 80 lahses,,,,

Above aya indirectly proves the requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a sexual related charge, either for a general blame of illegal sexual involvement (4-15), or a proper illegal sexual intercourse/mounting charge(24-2).

As pointed, that the word used is Mohsinnat, not Nissa , indirectly indicates the Chastity related issue , because the opposite of a chaste women is, a fornicator/adulterous.
siki

siki

-The provision of accusing with evidence of four witnesses is only and only for CHASTE ones not for every one.The Quran has not used the word " " but " ".

Think over the selection of words by the Holy Quran.

Every one is chaste (mohsina) till proved otherwise (4 witnesses)

Nissa was used in 4-15 to indicate , a general , "your women" which could include one's Azwaj , MMA , daughters, sisters etc , any one that you can be concerned off, and you have control upon , so that you can confine them.

siki

Allen

Peace Allen

17-32 you shall not commit Zina, it is a gross sin(fahisha) and an evil behaviour.

25-68 , zina is being rated along with shirk and murder.

60-12 , again zina is being rated as a major offence.

Zina is a subset of Fahisha(17-32), and is being rated as one of the major offences.

lane defines zina as fornication/adultery, and the only other meaning is , to mount, mounting.

In my opinion, Zina is the actual act of an illegal intercourse, where as Fawahisha could include lot of other illegal sexual activities being seen/witnessed , minus the witnessing of the actual act of mounting/couplation..

24-4 and those who accuse the Mohsinnats and then fail to bring 4 witnesses, flog them 80 lahses,,,,

Above aya indirectly proves the requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a sexual related charge, either for a general blame of illegal sexual involvement (4-15), or a proper illegal sexual intercourse/mounting charge(24-2).

As pointed by Allen that the word used is Mohsinnat, not Nissa , indirectly indicates the Chastity related issue , because the opposite of a chaste women is, a fornicator/adulterous.

siki

First of all i appreciate you at least you in this forum tried to look up in the Classical dictionary the meaning of "Zina".In Lane's lexicon you might have noticed the meaning of Zina include boht "fornication and Adultery".There is no difference between Zina and Adultery except that Zina is arabic word while adultery or fornication are English words.The English do make difference in Adultery and fornication but there is no such distinction in Islamic Laws.Zina is Zina no matter it is
-Open or secret
-married or unmarried
-Four witnesses present or not
Once it is proved 100 lashes is the answer.
As far following Aya is concerned
415
Here word Zina is used directly rather "Yaateen -al -Faahisha" is used
The word Fahisha has many meanings and Zina is no doubt one of them.But here it cannot mean Zina because of following reasons .

Here Four witnesses are compulsarily required for everyone not only for Muhsanaat as in our previous discussion
-These four witnesses are not for accusation rather for punishment because immediately after it punishment is describe in a conditional sentence
-punishment here is 'Imsaak -Fi -albayoot" not lashes.
Because one crime cannot have
-two different criteria for proof
-two different punishments
So Faahisha does not mean "Zina"

Allen

Every one is chaste (mohsina) till proved otherwise (4 witnesses)

Nissa was used in 4-15 to indicate , a general , "your women" which could include one's Azwaj , MMA , daughters, sisters etc , any one that you can be concerned off, and you have control upon , so that you can confine them.

siki

If every one is considered chaste unless proved otherwise then Allah would have specified it.Annisaa would have been sufficient.
In the society Categorically one may find three groups
Righteous people who apprently are obeying almighty Allah (their inner only Allah knows)
Those person who are outright disobeying Allah
Third group is nothing can be said about them.
This restriction of Four witnesses for accusing the chaste people is only to protect them for false allegations.
Do you think that four witness are required for the ladies sitting in the red light areas and earning money through prostitution?

I do not know who has given the ipression of "sets or subsets " of the crime.Zina is a crime ,it is either comitted or not comitted ,nothing in -between.
There is no question of "sub sets" super sets " or union set " or some other set.

siki

peace Allen

I generally agree with your understanding above, that seems logical, however i differ with you on few points and we need further discussion to sort them out.

I shall give a detailed reply tomorrow.

siki

unknownuser

First of all i appreciate you at least you in this forum tried to look up in the Classical dictionary the meaning of "Zina".In Lane's lexicon you might have noticed the meaning of Zina include boht "fornication and Adultery".There is no difference between Zina and Adultery except that Zina is arabic word while adultery or fornication are English words.The English do make difference in Adultery and fornication but there is no such distinction in Islamic Laws.Zina is Zina no matter it is
-Open or secret
-married or unmarried
-Four witnesses present or not
Once it is proved 100 lashes is the answer.

Then you agree that stoning is wrong according to Qur'an?

Allen

Then you agree that stoning is wrong according to Qur'an?

Zina has only one punishment that is 100 lashes nothing else.

siki

First of all i appreciate you at least you in this forum tried to look up in the Classical dictionary the meaning of "Zina".In Lane's lexicon you might have noticed the meaning of Zina include boht "fornication and Adultery".There is no difference between Zina and Adultery except that Zina is arabic word while adultery or fornication are English words.The English do make difference in Adultery and fornication but there is no such distinction in Islamic Laws.Zina is Zina no matter it is
-Open or secret
-married or unmarried
-Four witnesses present or not
Once it is proved 100 lashes is the answer.

i agree with your statment, however i need elaboration on the red part.How does Zina get proved?

in 4-15 , for a lesser charge of committing fahisha we need 4 witnesses, so how do you think that zanis would be prosecuted without 4 witnesses?

So Faahisha does not mean "Zina"

yes , i agree fahisha may/may not include zina , however zina is a fahisha.

siki

siki

If every one is considered chaste unless proved otherwise then Allah would have specified it.Annisaa would have been sufficient.
In the society Categorically one may find three groups
Righteous people who apparently are obeying almighty Allah (their inner only Allah knows)
Those person who are outright disobeying Allah
Third group is nothing can be said about them.
This restriction of Four witnesses for accusing the chaste people is only to protect them for false allegations.
Do you think that four witness are required for the ladies sitting in the red light areas and earning money through prostitution?

I do not know who has given the impression of "sets or subsets " of the crime.Zina is a crime ,it is either committed or not committed ,nothing in -between.
There is no question of "sub sets" super sets " or union set " or some other set.

Dear brother Allen

I totally disagree with your above quoted post.

I am a little surprised , that a logical person like you, who demands precision and absolute clarity regarding Devinne commandments, could generalise like above.

If every one is considered chaste unless proved otherwise then Allah would have specified it.Annisaa would have been sufficient.
In the society Categorically one may find three groups
Righteous people who apparently are obeying almighty Allah (their inner only Allah knows)
Those person who are outright disobeying Allah
Third group is nothing can be said about them.
There is no question of "sub sets" super sets " or union set " or some other set.

I think this is a simple universal rule, "every body is innocent till proved otherwise"
So is, every woman chaste till proved other wise.

If 4 people can independently blame a woman/suspect a woman, for committing fahishas , then she is no more a Mohsinna , but if not , she gets benefit of doubt.

The three groups you are talking about , who would make that judgment?

For most of the sunnies FM guys are the ones who are out right disobeying Allah , and vice versa.

And the so called apparently righteous people, we do not know what they are up to secretly.

what is wrong with the sets, and subsets for understanding purpose? Zina can be termed as a subset of fahisha.

Regarding the use of word Nissa o kum in 4-15 , i firmly maintain my stance/understanding , and am quite sure about it regarding its usage, if you want to debate, open a new thread and we shall sort it out in detail.

siki

Allen

i agree with your statment, however i need elaboration on the red part.How does Zina get proved?

in 4-15 , for a lesser charge of committing fahisha we need 4 witnesses, so how do you think that zanis would be prosecuted without 4 witnesses?

yes , i agree fahisha may/may not include zina , however zina is a fahisha.

siki

Dear Siki
Here is the trap where many people have slipped.
Actaully Quran does not mention four witnesses for the proof of "act of Zina" as I have discussed.Now the question is how will be proved ?
By the usual methods that any crime is proved.
-witnesses
-cirumstantial evidences
-medical reports
-Any other modern scientific reliable method

Here comes why Quran has stressed "four witnesses" to be essential for it?
Dear Siki ! Does anyone comit Zina with Four witnesses standing and watching?? In other words provision of four witnesses for the act of Zina is practically impossible.Consequently ,it is a sort of free licence of comitting Zina in islamic society.
No four witnesses (impossible) ----------> No proof -----------> No punishment

Coming to 415
There is Categorically four witnesses are required because "Fahisha " used over here is not Zina rather something less than Zina like
-Lewdness
-seductive behaviour
-Offensive and indecent language
-others
Here you can see that provision of four witnesses is not impossible.You can see many persons mixed taking sun Baths and are more or less naked.Cannot even you testify against a porn writer ?

Allen