What's so bad about Interest?
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Did anyone notice this part... "Whoever has received understanding from His Lord...".? Perhaps this is the problem because we see so much confusion about this "riba" understood as "interest/usury". Can anyone guarantee that he/she has received understanding from His Lord?
Anwar Azim
Dear yfm123,
That's an interesting question that I used to wonder a lot.
As for me, How can you know if an understanding is from God or not
- If it's consistent with facts/nature/reality then it's "true".
- If it's consistent with facts/nature/reality then it's consistent with the laws of God.
- God created all things laws, enforced them with His power so they happen, even a leaf cannot move without His power, we cannot understand truth/His laws without His power either. If we do see and verified a law to be true, then whose power made/allowed us to understand?
For example, Newton discovered God's law of "F=ma" in physics, he didn't create the law, he's seeing/tested that it's consistent with nature - truth, so it can only be the law that was set by the Creator. Whose power made/allowed Newton to understand that true law? I see this as only God's power can make anything happen.
In this case, I'm sure that many here bear witness that God exists and want to do good to serve God. Then, as sister Samia pointed out about fair trade, I showed in my previous post how unjust was "interest". We can see that it's true that interest is a fixed profit for one group of people whatever happens to the other group who are together putting valuables/money into the same venture, therefore unfair business. If it is unfair trade then it's not good then I'll avoid it - whatever "riba" can mean in the dictionary - I see this use consistent and true.
Same for the Quran, I will not believe an interpretation because the dictionary says so, I will believe understandings from it only when I see it leads to what is true/good/correct/consistent. This makes sense for me as for the beings in 722.
From my little knowledge, I see that those translated verses fit in well and consistent in explaining this unlawful business/trade model called "interest" (as in the example of comparing it to "profit" in my last post).
You don't need the "arabic" dictionary or deep "classical arabic" knowledge to know what's good and what's bad - what's fair and unfair. The topic is "What's so bad about Interest?" so we're showing what's so bad about it by facts/reason.
(Thanks yfm123, by writing this reply, I get a chance to revise things that I forgot some parts and learn a lot more.)
Glory be to God.
May God Guide.
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Peace "Burhan",
You said amongst other thingsBut firstly, don't lend money unless you are willing to make a loss.
In trade (business) you can make profit as well as loss. Infact that is the definition of business.JK- Ok i guess this means renting out a car or an apartment, where the renter obviously protects himself against any losses, is riba and forbidden too? I explained already that this concpt is insane. In todays world there are many, MANY customers. You cant run after everyone of them and many would exploit you would you not protect yourself through contracts. At the same time any of your clients can go and prove that he is bankupt and if proven through well established scientific means appllied in courts then he wont need to pay anymore. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Burhan",
You said amongst other thingsJK- Ok i guess this means renting out a car or an apartment, where the renter obviously protects himself against any losses, is riba and forbidden too? I explained already that this concpt is insane. In todays world there are many, MANY customers. You cant run after everyone of them and many would exploit you would you not protect yourself through contracts. At the same time any of your clients can go and prove that he is bankupt and if proven through well established scientific means appllied in courts then he wont need to pay anymore. GOD Bless!
Renting is very different, renting is a physical transfer for a quantity - renting is trade. Usury is money for money, even if the money is used to buy something. Renting ties the value to a physical object which is the entire point of trade. Without a physical object, the value is artificial. Money for money is artificial, money for a physical object is not so.
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Wakas
Bro, when I become your khalifa and start issuing fatwas I'll start providing explicit quranic evidence until that day it's up to the people to verify what I'm saying. I simply provide another viewpoint for you to consider and matchup against your own quranic evidences. Those who know me will take it on good faith that I will not say anything unless I had studied it from the quran. I'm not forcing my views on anyone. Besides, the whole quran is my evidence not individual verses. Anyway you the man with the study tools. ;D
Mr Johnny,
It depends on how that insurance is implemented. Like I said it gets complicated, hence the "those who have received understanding" part. So if you understand that your business practices are riba then you must stop.
As far as chasing people is concerned, the muslim is always the first to give the benefit of doubt. He is more interested in making profit in the next life than this one. Your fearful appproach to life goes against the spirit of the muslim.
In western societies a lot of people exploit the welfare benefit system. But we don't abolish it. Because even if it benefits one person then it is worth it. I'd rather expend my energy in encouraging people to be honest and vocally discouraging them from fraud. A muslim knows that God is his insurance policy.
Using your logic I shouldn't give money to the poor who asks, because they could be lying. There are so many beggars, I can't possibily do a credit check on all of them.
Of course there is an upper limit to how "nice" you should be. The verses describing this limit can also be applied to business. God contrasted riba with charity for a reason. Your buisness model should be fair, based on quranic principals not greed. It's hard thing to do, very hard ... cos you tell yourself "I'm running a buinsess not a charity".
Also read the verses about war, and putting faith in God ... 'cos business is kind of like war.
The bottom line is any "trade" that exploits people is wrong, call it riba, call it hiba, it doesn't make a difference.
We all know, or are shown right from wrong very plainly otherwise Judgment day will be a bit embarrassing for God. So lets stop kidding ourseleves that we don't know what those verses are saying.
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Peace "OPF",
Renting is very different, renting is a physical transfer for a quantity - renting is trade. Usury is money for money, even if the money is used to buy something. Renting ties the value to a physical object which is the entire point of trade. Without a physical object, the value is artificial. Money for money is artificial, money for a physical object is not so.
JK- This is a wrong analogy since in todays world EVERYTHING WHICH HAS AN EXCHANGE VALUE IN THE MARKET CAN BE CONSIDERED MONEY. Hence gems, silver, gold, platinum, currencies, other e-stocks etc can all be money and likewise ALL OF THESE CAN ALSO BE CONSIDERED AS GOODS. Hence this kinna definition wont work. Currency infact is a GAINED ACCEPTANCE through some kind of work and/or trade which also involves work usually, or at least thats what its supposed to be. Why should one now give out someones money to anyone else for free or at risk whilst he could otherwise use it to say invest in stocks, etc by himself? It doesnt make any sense. GOD Bless!
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peace all
OPF say
The natural course of events doesn't have to include a TV, but people have to buy houses, transport, etc, for society to get anywhere.
Well, it doesn't matter.
You are saying that interest is bad, period. You're position would be proven wrong with a single counter-example.
I agree that today people are exploited by banks and corporations, I'm not denying that.
Just because people use the internet to spread false ideas doesn't mean we should ban the internet.and about the houses, wouldn't the problem be solved if people just don't buy things they can't afford? Today, people who're earning 20,000 a year are buying houses worth 200,000. Well, nobody's forcing us to buy houses we don't have money for, we do it because we feel the better quality of life and possibility of more money is worth the risk.
If people just stopped buying expensive houses, wouldn't the prices go down because of low demand?
Same thing with cars, although here in the suburbs, you need to have one because everything is spread out (it takes an hour to walk everywhere). But again, people can choose not to spend money they don't have and take a different option.You have to differentiate between rent and interest here. When renting a physical object such as a car, the car can be returned at any time, when you decide you don't need to pay for that service any longer. When taking out a loan, you cannot just return the original sum and say "here is the money I rented, thanks", you will either be charged a horrendous amount or just denied. Also, with rent, the object is always there, with money, you are expected to spend it, meaning it has to disappear and reappear + 5%
But still, I don't see what's wrong with it if both parties AGREE. I'll admit that there's a point where we start taking advantage of the other person because of their stupidity or lack of choices, but I don't see what's wrong with what I did in that example. To me it still "feels" wrong because it's been drilled into my head that interest is evil, but when I look at it objectively, I can't see where exactly the evil is.
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riba is taking advantage of people's inability to repay loans,
which increases the divide between rich and poor.What God is saying is that don't do money lending unless you are
willing to write-off your losses (as way of charity).But firstly, don't lend money unless you are willing to make a loss.
In trade (business) you can make profit as well as loss. Infact that is the definition of business.The kind of money-lending we see today the banks never make a loss. That is not trade that is riba.
When banks say they have written-off losses, they are lying ... they get it all back with interest through
insurance.God isn't stopping you from making money from lending money, but he wants you accpet your losses aswell.
Ofcourse God doesn't want you to go crazy with the charity thing and loose all your money, it about doing
things justly and accepting losses where the client has no means to pay you ... not reposses everything he owns and drive him further into debt. In most cases you can always recover the orginal sum.peace
No one goes into business intending to make a loss. If I can avoid making a loss, I'll do that.
Just because a business doesn't suffer a loss doesn't necessarily mean they are cheating.
If I can make money by lending money, why can't I take measures to ensure that I don't suffer heavy losses? -
Dear Lobster,
To me it still "feels" wrong because it's been drilled into my head that interest is evil, but when I look at it objectively, I can't see where exactly the evil is.
I think it's clearly unfair to me as in
Let's consider these two business
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When you invest in another trade/business (for profit) you might
-Get profit (don't know how much, don't know when)
-No profit
-Loose your investment -
When you loan for another trade/business or even people/countries
-You must get "your profit"/"interest" at fixed rate no matter what happens.
To me, number 2 is not fair business.
The question about mutual agreement is not the point here, two people agreeing to do a bad/unfair thing doesn't make it right. For example, two people agree to make adultery. A person agrees to be eaten and slaughtered by another person (in Germany, long ago) doesn't make it right.
Therefore, to me, interest is like a fixed profit. If the business/person encountered loss or can't really pay the interest then it will get deeper "compounding over and over" and he must be desperate to cover it all up - no matter what happens next. The deeper it gets, the deeper it enslaves.
May God Guide.
Many people have no choice so they are put into this ever-deepening enslaving. You can see many living examples of this all over the world.
May God Guide.
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