regarding kabah

unknownuser

Peace all,

Who assigned the first "qibla", when, and what direction was it?

Jews always try to face Jerusalem and will never turn?

The Incredible Jerusalem Compass
http//www.jewishsoftware.com/products/The_Incredible_Jerusalem_Compass_813.asp?bhcd2=1133071212

"Most Diaspora Jews face the traditional Mizrah (East) when they pray,...Christian Zionists who love Israel also have the habit of praying towards Jerusalem - or towards where they think Jerusalem is."

(&#1640

2198 There is no sin on you if you seek the Bounty of your Lord. Then when you leave 'Araf?t, remember All?h at the Mash'ar-il-Har?m. And remember Him as He has guided you, and verily, you were, before, of those who were astray.

Where/what is Mash'ar-il-Har?m?

Anyone ? is the above a state-of-mind or physical place?

unknownuser

I don't know about that but presumably God used verses 107-109 of surah 9 as space filler?

Jack

In any case if masjid al haram is a physical place than the Ka'aba fails the 'purity' test. Remember Abraham and his son had to 'purify' it, and kaaba is far from pure.

Allen

I don't know about that but presumably God used verses 107-109 of surah 9 as space filler?

You mean these verses are "Just to fill in the blanks"????.Nothing els??

9107
9108
9109
LOL

Samia

Salaam Nun

Thanks for your reply. Do you mean that God assigned Jeurasalem a "qibla" to the Jews?

As for " mash3ar",, if you do a search for the root sheen 3ain raa, there are two original meanings hair and knowledge/comprehension; milestone.

could be the noun of place of the , plural of cow or she camel fattened for slaughter and given for free

(from al-Qaamuuaul Muheet)

or it could be a noun (masdar meemi), in this case it will be knowledge
Of course I found meanings as ( activities of hajj or places such as Muzdalifa...), but no linguistic support for that. The dictionary even explains that a place would be called "mash3ar" if it has a lot of trees and wild animals in it

(From Lisaanul 3arab)
.

Allen

In any case if masjid al haram is a physical place than the Ka'aba fails the 'purity' test. Remember Abraham and his son had to 'purify' it, and kaaba is far from pure.

Purity test ?? what is that just curious to know?

unknownuser

You mean these verses are "Just to fill in the blanks"????.Nothing els??

9107
9108
9109
LOL

? - A symbol used to denote a question. )

Allen

Salaam Nun

Of course I found meanings as ( activities of hajj or places such as Muzdalifa...), but no linguistic support for that. The dictionary even explains that a place would be called "mash3ar" if it has a lot of trees and wild animals in it

(From Lisaanul 3arab)
.

What do you mean by Linguistic support ??

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Would you please your 'Linguistic support" ??
Secondly Actual Quranic Verse is

2198
The Actual word used is " "
Would you please let us know

"Alif -Laam " is used for what purposes in Arabic ??
What is meant by "Alif-laam "used in this word mean ??

Samia

By linguistic support, I mean the dictionary takes you from the root towards the words derived from it, and you understat nd the relation between a meaning and a root, even if it is remote. I mentioned "milestones" as a word related to one of the two meanings of "sheen 3ain raa" knowledge. I also mentioned "sha3eera" as related to "sha3r" as stated by the dictionary. What's the relation of "Muzdalifa" to any of these meanings?

Forget about the alif laam; mash3ar is singular.
Let's look at your quotes from the dictionaries

shi3aar means sign. This is not the word mentioned in the verse.
Further more, when it is plural it is the plural of a completely different word hair

From Lisaanul 3arab

.

It is not the plural of "sha3iira", which is not the word mentioned, either.

Your quote then states (al mash3ar is the milestone and something worshiped(??) .) That's what I call (no linguistic support), and I mean the word "worshipped". On what basis is "shrine" part of this root? How is this meaning linguistically supported?

This is one of two cases where "mash3ar" is mentioned in all of your cut-and-paste, stating that it means milestone (correct) and shrine (clearly inserted without any basis)

And as I already mentioned, the other occurrence for mash3ar is that it means Muzdalifa...why Muzdalifa? Why not 3arafa or Mena? Why would it be a "milestone"? Or is it a "worshipped" place and I don't know? What's special about it and what's its importance in the "hajj" apart from collecting pebbles from it to stone the devil ?

Allen

?

Forget about the alif laam; mash3ar is singular.
Let's look at your quotes from the dictionaries

Why to forget it ?
" Mash3ar" has two characteristics
-preceded by Alif -laam
-followed by 'adjective " haraam
Alif - laam has its own meaning when attached to nouns;
I repeat;
-What are different types of "Alif - laam "?
-What meaning among them do you thing in this phrase??
Your problem of linguistic support will be solved once you answer these two questions.

ignoramus

salam brother Allen

i appreciate you are trying to make a point, but it seems to get stretched out by playing cat and mouse. why don't you provide your answers for all of us to benefit from your knowledge and understanding.

if sister Samia (or anyone else) disagrees, she could still retort.

thank you.

salam

Allen

salam brother Allen

i appreciate you are trying to make a point, but it seems to get stretched out by playing cat and mouse. why don't you provide your answers for all of us to benefit from your knowledge and understanding.

if sister Samia (or anyone else) disagrees, she could still retort.

thank you.

salam

Dear Ignoramus
This is not question of cat/mouse play.This is really very important linguistic problem.Saying "forget about it " is
-height of ignorance ,the person saying this , does not know the fundamentals of a language
-or it is an attempt to befool others by hiding the intricacies.
Every language has its rules connotations attached to certain uses.
I give you an example in English.
There is a lot of difference
-English
-The English

There is a lot of difference between these pairs of sentences
1
He went to school
He went to the school.
2
He went to hospital
He went to the hospital
3
He went to sea.
He went to the sea.
In English capitalization has impact on the meaning e.g.
-god
-God
Look up in grammar books and dictionaries and verify them.
Same is the case with Arabic language.Saying "forget about it" is not the proper way to interpret the Quran verses.
Just a hint;
-The word 'kitaab" means "any book"
But when Quran uses it as "Al-kitaab" ,do you really mean "any book" lying on your shelf?? .It will definitely mean some specific book and you will translate it as "The book" not "any book'.
I will comment further once I get reply from her.

Samia

Dear Ignoramus
This is not question of cat/mouse play.This is really very important linguistic problem.Saying "forget about it " is
-height of ignorance ,the person saying this , does not know the fundamentals of a language
-or it is an attempt to befool others by hiding the intricacies.
Every language has its rules connotations attached to certain uses.
I give you an example in English.
There is a lot of difference
-English
-The English

There is a lot of difference between these pairs of sentences
1
He went to school
He went to the school.
2
He went to hospital
He went to the hospital
3
He went to sea.
He went to the sea.
In English capitalization has impact on the meaning e.g.
-god
-God
Look up in grammar books and dictionaries and verify them.
Same is the case with Arabic language.Saying "forget about it" is not the proper way to interpret the Quran verses.
Just a hint;
-The word 'kitaab" means "any book"
But when Quran uses it as "Al-kitaab" ,do you really mean "any book" lying on your shelf?? .It will definitely mean some specific book and you will translate it as "The book" not "any book'.
I will comment further once I get reply from her.

Try not to dwell in bad conjecture. When I said "forget about alif laam", I followed it with "mash3ar is a singular", because the dictionari(es) you copy from treat it as plural and use it as "mashaa3ir".

From this quote, it says (the plural of almash3ar is mashaa3ir), so the plural does not carry an alif laam. Then it keeps talking about "sha3aa'ir", and although it does not explicitly say it is the plural of "mash3ar", the dictionary gives the impression that it is the plural of mash3ar. Another dictionary gives the singular of "sha3aair" as "sha3eera"!!!

This confusion is more important to solve than discussing why there is an alif laam.

So, what's the importance of the alif laam to the meaning, if we cannot decide what the plural of mash3ar is or what plural is mashaa3ir, or wheather "mash3ar" can take a plural or not?

Allen

Try not to dwell in bad conjecture. When I said "forget about alif laam", I followed it with "mash3ar is a singular", because the dictionari(es) you copy from treat it as plural and use it as "mashaa3ir".

From this quote, it says (the plural of almash3ar is mashaa3ir), so the plural does not carry an alif laam. Then it keeps talking about "sha3aa'ir", and although it does not explicitly say it is the plural of "mash3ar", the dictionary gives the impression that it is the plural of mash3ar. Another dictionary gives the singular of "sha3aair" as "sha3eera"!!!
This confusion is more important to solve than discussing why there is an alif laam.

So, what's the importance of the alif laam to the meaning, if we cannot decide what the plural of mash3ar is or what plural is mashaa3ir, or wheather "mash3ar" can take a plural or not?

Why are you avoiding my question of Alif --laam ??
You are circumventing as Ayaman did in his/her posts.
Please answer these two questions
-What are different types of Alif -laam ?
-What type of Alif -laam is being used in this phrase?
You are avoiding it because you want to deceive the reading with your self concoted ,preconceived ideas.What is stopping you ??

Samia

One type

Allen

Dear Sister
May I ask you the reason for RELUCTANCE TO ANSWER these simple /fundamental questions ??

Samia

Dear Sister
May I ask you the reason for RELUCTANCE TO ANSWER these simple /fundamental questions ??

You ask questions, not because you want to know, but beause you want to "test", and that's unacceptable. I replied to your question in the way I would give in to a noisy child, just to buy the piece of my mind.

Allen

You ask questions, not because you want to know, but beause you want to "test", and that's unacceptable. I replied to your question in the way I would give in to a noisy child, just to buy the piece of my mind.

I replied in this way when you asked me about the active participles of "Sabaha".Do you remember ??

Samia

I replied in this way when you asked me about the active participles of "Sabaha".Do you remember ??

I was not chasing you with a meaningless question and insisting that you answered it. I wouldn't even have bothered if you did not reply, because I had already moved on.

Raj-ah

Samia

Salaam Nun

Thanks for your reply. Do you mean that God assigned Jeurasalem a "qibla" to the Jews?

Recall that we said, "Enter this town, where you will find as many provisions as you like. Just enter the gate humbly, and treat the people nicely. We will then forgive your sins, and increase the reward for the pious."

Neither the disbelievers among the followers of the scripture, nor the idol worshipers, wish to see any blessings come down to you from your Lord. However, GOD showers His blessings upon whomever He chooses. GOD possesses infinite grace.

Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.

The fools among the people would say, "Why did they change the direction of their Qiblah?" Say, "To GOD belongs the east and the west; He guides whoever wills in a straight path."

We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.

We have seen you turning your face about the sky. We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

Even if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors

SAmia for your Eyes Only.

Psalm 956)"O come, let us worship and bow down let us kneel before the Lord our maker.",
(Joshua 1842)"And Joshua fell on his face to the Earth, and did worship...",
(I Kings 1842)"And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down upon the Earth, and put his face between his knees.",
(Numbers 206)"...and they fell upon their faces and the Glory of the Lord appeared on them.", (Genesis 173)"And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying