Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?
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Peace to all,
My answer was to Bigmo's posting. Not upon the whole "can we answer the salat" question.
If you would research the topic, you would find that the Torah/Pentateuch(from the greek word penta meaning 5 and teukos meaning scrolls/books) is a composite of 4 works, namely- what scholars call the J text, Originally composed c 950 BC
- what scholars call the E text, Originally composed c 850 BC
- what scholars call the D text, Originally composed c 650-621 BC
- what scholars call the P text, Originally composed c 550-400 BC
These findings originally published by Julius Wellhausen in 1876, are now referred to as 'documentary hypothesis'.
Whereas the majority of scholars agree with this point, the heart of the P text contains material from the original Torah as received by the prophet/apostle moses and aaron in 1512-1473 bce. We know this from linguistic and archaeological studies.
Please reread both of my original posts. I'm not ever denying the children of israel had a different Torah. I'm defining what occurred to the original Sefer Torah that was revealed.
Also I stand on scientific facts, that which can be proved beyond a shadow of doubt. While I agree that the main thrust or position of the Qur'aan as revealed to the prophet/apostle Mustafa Muhammad al Amin dictates an anti-pseudapigraphical stance, we should be very careful in what we claim "the Koran condemns", for nowhere is the termnology Talmud, or its two main parts the Gemarah and Mishneh(tosefta) ever mentioned. Yes, the Qur'aan does maintain a consistent stance of following the revealed word and not adhering to external contributions/interpretations, it never cites books by title and should not be misrepresented as having done so.Peace to all,
Latif AbdullahPeace to all,
Latif Abdullah -
Peace to all,
My answer was to Bigmo's posting. Not upon the whole "can we answer the salat" question.
If you would research the topic, you would find that the Torah/Pentateuch(from the greek word penta meaning 5 and teukos meaning scrolls/books) is a composite of 4 works, namely- what scholars call the J text, Originally composed c 950 BC
- what scholars call the E text, Originally composed c 850 BC
- what scholars call the D text, Originally composed c 650-621 BC
- what scholars call the P text, Originally composed c 550-400 BC
These findings originally published by Julius Wellhausen in 1876, are now referred to as 'documentary hypothesis'.
Whereas the majority of scholars agree with this point, the heart of the P text contains material from the original Torah as received by the prophet/apostle moses and aaron in 1512-1473 bce. We know this from linguistic and archaeological studies.
Please reread both of my original posts. I'm not ever denying the children of israel had a different Torah. I'm defining what occurred to the original Sefer Torah that was revealed.
Also I stand on scientific facts, that which can be proved beyond a shadow of doubt. While I agree that the main thrust or position of the Qur'aan as revealed to the prophet/apostle Mustafa Muhammad al Amin dictates an anti-pseudapigraphical stance, we should be very careful in what we claim "the Koran condemns", for nowhere is the termnology Talmud, or its two main parts the Gemarah and Mishneh(tosefta) ever mentioned. Yes, the Qur'aan does maintain a consistent stance of following the revealed word and not adhering to external contributions/interpretations, it never cites books by title and should not be misrepresented as having done so.Peace to all,
Latif AbdullahPeace to all,
Latif AbdullahOk but all the concepts the Koran condemned regarding the Jews are supported by the Talmud and none did i see so far is contained in Torah.
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can somebody please explain to me
( ) at both edges of the day, and the near part of the night. 11114
how many timings are mentioned here ? 3 or 2 ?
and why 2 ?
peace
As I understand it, it says salaat is supposed to be performed in the edges of day (no salaat during the day), the second edge extends to the first hours of night . This is further explained in another verse that salaats to be performed during these edges are fajr and ishaa'.
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As I understand it, it says salaat is supposed to be performed in the edges of day (no salaat during the day), the second edge extends to the first hours of night . This is further explained in another verse that salaats to be performed during these edges are fajr and ishaa'.
isha is between sunset and darkness ?
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peace
thank you
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There is no PROPER way to do Salat. Salat means prayer and it is the prayer of a Jew, a Christian, a hindu or even a polythiest. When they pray no matter what they pray to they are making Salat. The only thing I can see in the Quran about the physicality of praying is raka&a which doens't mean unit in any way. Raka&a mean to bow or to kneel. So there is no use in talkign about units and rak&a just mean to bow or kneel. And sajada can mean to pay homage or to prostrate (in the olden days they prostrated to pay homage and they still do this in many parts of the word to kings and such). So when you pray just bow or kneel in some way and pray to God in the best way you can. There is no proper way for Salat that is the Sunni way of thinking. The only proper thing about prayer is that we, and believers in God, pray to God. And the only physical thing we can do to be in accordance with the example given to us in the Quran is to bow or kneel in some way. So pray like a muslim, a christian, a hindu or a jew. It doesn't matter. Just bow or kneel and pray to God, the most high. I see in the Quran 2 times to pray, but think about it, since when is it wrong to pray to God, be it 2 or 20.
There doesn't have to be a right way to pray. Just pray.Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Al-salaat al-wustaa
Option number one The best prayer (i.e. don't cheat yourself or God)
Option number two The most modest/moderate prayer (don't spread your prayer all through the streets just to let others know)Both are valid but the second has Quranic reference to back it up.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam all
I think verse 2239 might shed some light on the meaning of "wustaa"
2238 Guard strictly the "salawwat" and the "salaat wustaa" and stand to God in obedience
2239 So (then), if you are scared/worried, then on foot (walking/running) or riding.....The two verses are connected with the which I translated as "So". So if they are afraid or worried, then what not perform salaat OR reduce the quality of it? The verse does not say don't perform it, but says perform it in any state, which will not be the perfect or balanced way, but a lesser quality. I believe , hence, wustaa is about the quality of salaat, not an extra one.
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Salaam all
I think verse 2239 might shed some light on the meaning of "wustaa"
2238 Guard strictly the "salawwat" and the "salaat wustaa" and stand to God in obedience
2239 So (then), if you are scared/worried, then on foot (walking/running) or riding.....The two verses are connected with the which I translated as "So". So if they are afraid or worried, then what not perform salaat OR reduce the quality of it? The verse does not say don't perform it, but says perform it in any state, which will not be the perfect or balanced way, but a lesser quality. I believe , hence, wustaa is about the quality of salaat, not an extra one.
Hmm, I have never actually noticed the verse after it. Interesting.
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Peace,
Samia it is socialization. However don't be fooled by the common use of this English word as a gathering with no specific purpose except to chat. Socialization is any gathering of people where they relate to each other, that includes trade among many other situations.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Anwar's interpretation makes sense; suppose that's why we're advised to dress nicely for 'the socialization'?
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O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) That is best for you if ye but knew!
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And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah. and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint) that ye may prosper.
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But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing. Say "The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! and Allah is the Best to provide (for all needs)."
What is this call? Is this congregation done by the Muslims or the others. Its talking about trade . It seems the call for the congregation is different from the functions of the others.
Is the salat called upon part of the congregation or is the congregation seperate from the salat?
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Peace all,
According to my research, the obligatory salaat for muslimeen/mumineen is only two times a day per the Qur'aan salaat of dawn (salaat al-fajr) and salaat of dusk (salaat al-isha).
The time of salaat of dawn is anytime from onset of dawn to before sunrise, and salaat of dusk is from onset of sunset to onset of complete darkness. Please see the following links for further discussion on this topic
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.msg92976#msg92976
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13595.msg115426#msg115426 (onwards until #9)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12074.msg114433#msg114433
One can perform "additional salaat" (naafilah) if one likes for extra credit, which is optional
1779 And from the night awake for it additionally (naafilatan) for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.
Some comments on the timing of the salaat of the mumineen/muslimeen
TWO EDGES OF THE DAYTIME
11114 And you shall hold the connection/salaat at the two edges (tarafayi) of the daytime, and the near parts (zulafan) of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
The "zulafan" in 11114 is plural, not singular, meaning "near PARTS of the night".
First 11114 mentions the two edges "TARAFAYI" of the daytime. According to 20130, by the usage of the words "ATRAAF AN-NIHAAR", daytime has 3 or more edges (The word atraaf is plural for three or more edges). Now the question arises that which two edges of the daytime The God is talking about in 11114 ? The God answers that by telling us precisely which two edges of the daytime the ones that are also the near parts of the night, i.e. dawn and dusk.
The qur'aanic daytime is from onset of dawn to onset of complete darkness of the night, and the qur'aanic night is from just after the sunset to just before sunrise. Thus they overlap at dawn and dusk.
Please see the following article for details about qur'aanic daytime and qur'aanic night
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htm
One edge of the day which is also the corresponding near part of the night is dawn (dawn is included in the qur'aanic night and is the part of the night near sunrise and is also the first edge of the day). The other edge of the day which is also the corresponding near part of the night is dusk.
This can also be explained as follows
1st edge of the day = dawn = one near part of the night (part of night near the sunrise)
last edge of the day = dusk = other near part of the night (part of night near the sunset)
Hence "near PARTS (plural) of the night" in 11114
The "wa" in Arabic is also used to mean "that is" and can separate two phrases/words referring to the same subject. Thus in 11114 it says "two edges of the daytime "wa"/"that is" near parts of the night", referring to the same time period of dawn and dusk.
If the near parts (plural) of the night is taken to be separate from the two edges of the daytime and not referring to the same time period then there will be two logical problems
- Which two edges of the daytime ?
- How many near parts of the night (with each near part for a separate salaat) ?
#2 can lead to 2,3,4,5........ salaats during the parts of the night close to sunset and 2,3,4,5........ salaats during the parts of the night close to sunrise, leading to unlimited number of salaats at night.
LI DULOOKISH-SHAMSI ILA GHASAQIL-LAYL
1778 You shall uphold the salaat from the sun's "DULOOK", to darkness of the night, and the Qur'aan at dawn; the Qur'aan at dawn is witnessed.
What is "DULOOK" ? This word is mentioned only one time in the Qur'aan. Its root is DLK, which means "to rub or to massage". "Dulook" can also mean "declination" but it does not mean "declination at noon". The sun can only appear to be "rubbing" when it rubs the horizon at sunrise and at sunset, but when it rubs at sunrise, it is not declining but ascending. The context (177 implies the meaning "the rubbing of the sun at sunset" (the context of the verse suggests that it is at sunset and not at sunrise).
When the sun rubs the horizon at sunset, it is also declining at that time, thus both meanings "rubbing" and "declination" fit.
LI DULOOKI AL-SHAMSI can only be interpreted as the sun's rubbing of the horizon and declination at sunset. With the preposition LI, which means (in this case) just after, the very precise interpretation of "li dulooki al-shamsi" would be when the sun starts rubbing the horizon. So if we take this interpretation, then the first part of the verse would be translated as follows
"Uphold the "salaat"/connection from the rubbing/setting of the sun up to darkness of the night" referring to "twilight".
The Qur'aan at dawn is synonymous with the salaat al-fajr; as one of the most important parts of upholding salaat is oration/reading of the Qur'aan.
Therefore this verse also confirms the same two times of upholding salaat as 2458 and thus 2458 is consistent with 1778.
TWO POINTS
Firstly, if "dulook" is interpreted as "declination at noon", then how come the noon salaat is not mentioned in 2458, where salaat al-fajr and salaat al-3isha are mentioned ?
Secondly AND MORE IMPORTANTLY
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD and referring to ONE SALAAT in that time period because it says "uphold the salaat (singular) from the sun's duluk until darkness of the night" in 1778, and not "uphold the SALAWAAT (plural) .............".
How can someone interpret this one salaat in that one time period as two salaats (noon and 3isha), when clearly that time period is mentioned for singular SALAAT in 1778 ? The false "noon" meaning is PURE CONJECTURE based on excess baggage of the sectarian notion of al-islaam based on the fabricated hearsays falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad. 1778 refers to one salaat during that one time period of "from the sun's duluk to the darkness of the night", which is salaat al-3isha, and to one salaat at dawn signified by the dawn Reading, and thus the correct translation can only be "from the setting of the sun to darkness of the night".
AL-SALAAT AL-WUSTA
Please go through all the occurrences of the word "WST" in the Qur'aan and see what it consistently means in the Qur'aan. Let me help you do that by quoting the relevant part from the following article
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm
Middle (Wusta) Salaat.
Wusta- is the word that is used to mean "middle" in 2238. Let us read and see if this fits throughout The Reading.
The God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average/best/balanced (AWSAT) for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth The God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
The God tells us that for expiation, we are to give average type of food like we would give our own families. We are to give a balanced meal, one that contains some nutrition , but not one that we have to spend our life savings on.
"O ye who believe! Give of the GOOD THINGS which ye have earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have produced for you, and do not even aim at getting anything which is bad, in order that out of it ye may give away something, when ye yourselves would not receive it except with closed eyes. And know that The God is Free of all wants, and worthy of all praise."
Average can also be seen as middle from the above explanation, so lets dig a little further for clarification.
More clarifications-
There are two other clarifying verses that settle this dispute (Remember disputes are to be settled with the messenger, the ever living messenger , The Reading (459))
" But when they saw the garden they said ' we have surely lost our way indeed we are deprived.' Said "AWSATUHUM" 'Did not I say to you, 'Why not glorify The God?' "
So, using our minds that we are responsible for, would we place "middle" or "most balanced" in this verse? Clearly it was the 'most balanced' man, what would be the ?middle? man? The one who suggested glorifying The God was the most balanced because the righteous are those who maintain the balance of all things in life, they keep the proper perspective of the material world and the spiritual world.
O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of The GOD is the most righteous. The GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
You see this is how The God teaches us the names as He did for Adam (237) and will do for all of His devotees who turn completely to Him.
The shaytaan (deceiver) has been exposed, but there is more falsehood that needs its brains knocked out by the truth.
"Thus we have made you an "ummatan WASATAN", that you might be witnesses over the nations and the messenger a witness over yourselves;..."
Has The God made the believers a 'middle group' or has He made the believers a BALANCED group? The Most Merciful has not left it up for us to guess. He has clarified it for us.
"Ye are the MOST BALANCED/BEST of people (khayra ummatan) evolved for mankind. Enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believe in The God..."
Salaat is a function which will make you a balanced human being, one who has not gotten lost in the material illusion and remembers that He/She is only here for a test.
Know that this worldly life is no more than play and games, and boasting among you, and hoarding of money and children. It is like abundant rain that produces plants and pleases the disbelievers. But then the plants turn into useless hay, and are blown away by the wind. In the Hereafter there is either severe retribution, or forgiveness from GOD and approval. This worldly life is no more than a temporary illusion.
Finally, please ponder my following questions
2238 is not referring to a particular salaat by the name of "middle" salaat but is referring to the "best/balanced" salaat. If it is the "middle" salaat, then
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DID ALLAH FORGET TO TELL WHICH SALAAT IS THE FIRST SALAAT ?
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HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHICH ONE IS MIDDLE ?
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WHICH SALAAT IS ALLAH REFERRING TO AS MIDDLE ?
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DID ALLAH FORGET TO TELL US THAT ?
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Why is "salaat of noon" or "salaat of dusk" the middle salaat ? Did Allah say that "fajr" is the FIRST salaat ?
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If Allah has not given us a starting point as to which is the first salaat then how can we determine the "middle" salaat ? I can arbitrarily say that "3isha" salaat is the first salat, that would make "fajr" as the "middle" one then, if there are 3 salaats !
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If there was indeed a middle salaat then how come The God forgot to mention it in 2458 ?
2458 O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before salaat/connection of dawn, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after salat/connection of dusk. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Why did He not mention "salaat of noon" or "salaat of darkness of night" here ?
- Let us consider 2238
2238 Maintain the SALAWAAT/connections, and the WUSTA SALAAT/connection; and stand dutiful for God.
Notice The God asking us to maintain SALAWAAT/connectionS (plural), and then immediately adds WUSTA SALAAT. Now if "wusta salaat" means "middle" and it is a separate salaat, then hasn't The God already mentioned ALL SALAATS just before it and wouldn't that include "middle" salaat as well ? Saying SALAWAT/ConnectionS and then saying the name of another salaat would be redundant, won't it ?
Let me give an example. Suppose I tell a medical student
Read your medical books and the internal medicine book.
Am I not being redundant because "medical books" already includes "internal medicine book" ?
Suppose I tell you
Bring your dressES and the red dress.
Isn't the red dress already included in "dressES" and would it not then be redundant to add it after I already said "dressES" ?
The only way it will make sense is if "wusta salaat" is not the name of a separate salaat but is a description of what all our salaats should be like, i.e. the best/balanced salaat, (remember "wa" can mean "that is" and separate a descriptive attribute of a subject from the previously mentioned subject in Arabic) and then this usage will also be consistent with how the words derived from "WST" are used elsewhere in the Qur'aan.
You see, "wusta" meaning "middle" in 2238 does not make any sense, and leads to conjecturing as to which salaat is first and which is "middle" and would also cause a logical redundancy in 2238. It can only mean "best/balanced" salaat, meaning that ALL our salaats should be that way.
The following is quoted from one of the links I gave, in which I raised some logical questions against "wusta" meaning middle in 2238
"In my understanding there is no such thing as the "middle" salaat in al-qur'aan. That is the wrong translation of "al-salaat al-wusta" which means "the best/balanced/moderate salaat" in the context of 2238 and al-qur'aan as a whole. According to 2238 Allah wants us to uphold all our salaats in the best/balanced/moderate manner.
Firstly, which salaat would be the "middle" salaat ? If there are 3 salaats x, y and z then depending on which one is the first or initial salaat would determine the middle salaat. For example if x is the first or initial salaat then y would be the middle salaat, but if y is the first salaat then z would be the middle one, and if z is the first salaat then x would be the middle one.
Allah never leaves something vague as al-qur'aan is clear and detailed. I challenge anyone to give qur'aanic evidence as to which salaat is CLEARLY the first salaat and which salaat is CLEARLY the "middle" salaat according to al-qur'aan. If the middle salaat is so important as to be mentioned separately in 2238 then Allah should have clearly told us which salaat He is talking about as the middle salaat and not leave it unclear and up to guess work.
Secondly, in 2238 when it says protect the salaats in the beginning of the verse, that logically includes ALL salaats and then it is redundant to say AND the middle salaat, if the middle salaat is a separate salaat, because the word salaats in the beginning of the verse automatically includes the middle salaat as well IF THERE IS INDEED A MIDDLE SALAAT. That logically proves that by "al-salaat al-wusta" Allah does not mean a separate middle salaat but is giving a descriptive property of how ALL our salats should be, i.e. the best/balanced/moderate salaat, meaning that all our salaats should be upheld in the best/balanced/moderate manner.
Thirdly, if one studies the usage of all the words derived from the root WST in al-qur'aan one finds that the meaning "middle" does not fit in any of those usages but the meaning best/balanced/moderate fits in those occurrences. Thus in 2238 "wusta" cannot mean middle because of the logical contradiction presented in the second paragraph above, and can only mean "best/balanced/moderate" as per context of that verse and the usage of similar words throughout al-qur'aan.
Please go through the following links again very carefully, with concentration
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta"
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691
One important point to consider is that "salaat of dawn" and "salaat of dusk" are mentioned in al-qur'aan without the AL before the salaat
SALAAT AL-FAJR (245
SALAAT AL-3ISHA (245
meaning "salaat OF dawn" and "salaat OF dusk".
However the wusta salaat is mentioned with the AL before the salaat
AL-SALAAT AL-WUSTA (223
In this phrase, there is "AL" before BOTH "salaat" and "wusta", and in such a construction, "wusta" will be the adjective of "salaat", meaning "wusta salaat" (wusta used as adjective) and not "salaat OF wusta", which is one point in favor of it not being the name/time of a salaat.
YAWM AL-JUM3AH
My understanding of "yawm al-jum3ati" according to al-qur'aan is as follows
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12991.msg106788#msg106788
The word "yaum" in al-qur'aan refers to a time period and not necessarily a 24 hour day.
In my understanding, there is no such thing as the Friday salaat according to al-qur'aan. There is no basis of a seven day week from al-qur'aan. The proper name of the day Jum'ah was hijacked from the common noun "al-jum'ah" from 629 meaning "the assembly or gathering" and "yaum al-jum'ah" in 629 means "time of the assembly/gathering". Now Allah never leaves anything vague/unclear in al-qur'aan. Which time is the time of the assembly/gathering according to al-qur'aan then ? If we look closely we find that the only time we are called to gather/assemble in this world in al-qur'aan is for hajj
2227 And call out to the people with the hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
In my understanding the "yaum al-jum'ah" in 629 refers to this time when the people are gathered for hajj and 629 refers to the call to the salat at this particular assembly/gathering for hajj and then the command to hasten towards remembring Allah and CEASE ALL SELLING makes total sense.
I would like to quote a relevant excerpt from brother Ayman's article "How did it come to this? (part 1)
"Another interesting common thread that runs through several of those idols is that they all had association with Friday. For example, Ashtoreth is connected to Friday. So is Venus, where the Romans named Friday after her as "dies veneris". The very name Friday is derived from the Norse goddess, Frigga. When the Germanic tribes invaded England they imposed their goddess upon the day meant to honor Venus. The day was called Frigedaeg, which gradually became "Friday". I don't think that it is a coincidence that Friday also became the "holy day" for sectarians who venerate Allat/Aphrodite and her black cube and Black Stone." - Ayman
May The God guide us all to the truth.