question about quran
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peace nerspi, all,
This is a classic claim by some traditional Muslims. Please see the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14587.msg134005#msg134005
A commonly stated argument by those who wish to raise traditional heresay/ahadith to divine-status level is that its compilation was the same as The Quran.
Is that really true? Lets look at the simple and obvious facts...
The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's wordThe Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)The Quran = recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet MuhammadThe Quran = written AND memorised word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorise ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmittedThe Quran = protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection statedThe Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its own versions, weak & strong ones etcThe Quran = in-built verification mechanism, e.g. challenges others to find inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistancies etc.Topic is not about comparison between Hadith and Quran rather how the Quran was preserved .
God preserved the Quran- Without involvement of "laws of nature "
- With involvement of "laws of nature "
??
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Lets look at the simple and obvious facts...
The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's wordThe Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)The Quran = recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet MuhammadThe Quran = written AND memorised word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorise ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmittedThe Quran = protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection statedThe Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its own versions, weak & strong ones etcThe Quran = in-built verification mechanism, e.g. challenges others to find inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistancies etc.So clear, yet for some, so much confusion.
Peace
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Topic is not about comparison between Hadith and Quran rather how the Quran was preserved .
God preserved the Quran- Without involvement of "laws of nature "
- With involvement of "laws of nature "
??
hadith followers say, hadith were preserved by the same people who preserved the quran, so how come hadith are not authentic and quran is?
Sounds like comparison to me. What do you think?
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peace
well... yeah
how could they make a copy of one thing (quran) and it's ok, nothing wrong with it,
yet they make a copy of another thing (hadith), then it's not ok, somehow it's false and wrong and not acceptableHere are a few questions
1.) Have you VERIFIED that these same people enscribed both the Quran and ahadeeth?
2.) Have you VERIFIED that there is physical evidence for those statements as opposed to hearsay and textual sources?
3.) Have you VERIFIED that the hadeeth came from a 6th century Arab called "Muhammad" (who fed 500 people with a single glass of water)?
And most importantly
4.) Have you VERIFIED that the Quran is the word of God?
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peace
well... yeah
how could they make a copy of one thing (quran) and it's ok, nothing wrong with it,
yet they make a copy of another thing (hadith), then it's not ok, somehow it's false and wrong and not acceptableAbsolutely genuine question.
Keep one thing in mind when expecting response.
It is my personal experience even when talking to a traditional 'mullah" and the same thing over here When responder becomes speechless or left with no solid arguement then- He starts mocking
- He gets annoyed
Both of these behaviours are immature defence mechanisms.Naturally one has to throw out of mind what is inside it.
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peace
well... yeah
how could they make a copy of one thing (quran) and it's ok, nothing wrong with it,
yet they make a copy of another thing (hadith), then it's not ok, somehow it's false and wrong and not acceptableThere is one thing that Allen and co. will never answer. Even assuming that every hadith is 100% correct. This does NOT mean we must follow it as divine guidance/law. This really is not a hard concept to grasp. Do you see, nerspi, what I am saying? Even assuming every hadith is accurate, it makes zero sense to follow them as religious guidance/law, if one believes in the quran. The quran strongly warns against this. Very easy to see.
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peace
There is one thing that Allen and co. will never answer. Even assuming that every hadith is 100% correct. This does NOT mean we must follow it as divine guidance/law. This really is not a hard concept to grasp. Do you see, nerspi, what I am saying? Even assuming every hadith is accurate, it makes zero sense to follow them as religious guidance/law, if one believes in the quran. The quran strongly warns against this. Very easy to see.
actually that's what i hear from them, that mihammad was perfect and the best and is the perfect example we should follow, why, well since muhammad was on such a high level of spirituality, that he was able to recieve the message, that he killed his ego, that he didn't speak out of desire, and all that he did and said (mentioned in hadith), we should (or must) follow. and they post verses from quran, about obeying the messenger, him being a great example, him ordering things on his own, him saying 'if you want to obey God, then follow me' (something like that)...
but i think they made up most of the stuff about him anyway. i mean i don't know why muhammad's personal life has anything to do with religion, who cares how he ate, walked, slept... i don't think God puts much emphesis on that, from the quran i can see that what's in the heart is more important.
but i sometimes don't know what to say to them (hadith followers),
could show me where in the quran it warns agains this please? -
003.144
YUSUFALI Muhammad is no more than a messenger many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
PICKTHAL Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
SHAKIR And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.They'll simply say that their "not turning back" is carried out by keeping on hadeeth. A silly principle, because to do that, one has to use a double negative (i.e. this is how we "do not turn back" whereas all that's needed is no change at all.
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peace
actually that's what i hear from them, that mihammad was perfect and the best and is the perfect example we should follow, why, well since muhammad was on such a high level of spirituality, that he was able to recieve the message, that he killed his ego, that he didn't speak out of desire, and all that he did and said (mentioned in hadith), we should (or must) follow. and they post verses from quran, about obeying the messenger, him being a great example, him ordering things on his own, him saying 'if you want to obey God, then follow me' (something like that)...
but i think they made up most of the stuff about him anyway. i mean i don't know why muhammad's personal life has anything to do with religion, who cares how he ate, walked, slept... i don't think God puts much emphesis on that, from the quran i can see that what's in the heart is more important.
but i sometimes don't know what to say to them (hadith followers),
could show me where in the quran it warns agains this please?Saying that any human is perfect or flawless is ridiculous. We follow Muhammad by following his message, the quran. Not 7th century Arab traditions.
Exactly, even assuming all that is true, there is a reason it is not in the quran because it is not necessary for our guidance. Sleeping on one side as opposed to the other has nothing to do with our guidance.
7750 Which Hadith, other than this, do they uphold? (make sure to read 771-49 to see who "they" is referring to in 7750)
456 These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?
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peace
actually that's what i hear from them, that mihammad was perfect and the best and is the perfect example we should follow, why, well since muhammad was on such a high level of spirituality, that he was able to recieve the message, that he killed his ego, that he didn't speak out of desire, and all that he did and said (mentioned in hadith), we should (or must) follow. and they post verses from quran, about obeying the messenger, him being a great example, him ordering things on his own, him saying 'if you want to obey God, then follow me' (something like that)...
but i think they made up most of the stuff about him anyway. i mean i don't know why muhammad's personal life has anything to do with religion, who cares how he ate, walked, slept... i don't think God puts much emphesis on that, from the quran i can see that what's in the heart is more important.
but i sometimes don't know what to say to them (hadith followers),
could show me where in the quran it warns agains this please?Dear Nerspi
See how did we get this Quran word of Allah ?
Allah did not come directly to us.
A person told us first that he was a prophet ,----- we believe
Then he tells us that this revelation which has been given to me ----- we believe
When he tells us I have been told how to say prayers ---- We reject.
Quran is sort of constituition.While Sunna is in place of Penal code.
Constituition of a country says the life of every citizen must be protected but it will not tell the methodology.It is given in penal code /legistation how to protect.Constituition = Quran
Legistation = SunnaQuran tells = say prayer
Prophet tells = how to say it
Quran tells = perform Hajj
Prophet tells = how to perform Hajj
No one says that prophet's eating ,sleeping ,laughing ,weeping has be followed.If Quran aloners are put in one room and ask them to say prayer ,every one will be prostating in a different direction.
-one -----east- one --- west
- one - north
- one - south
- one - east south
- one - east north
- one - south west
- one -west north
- one - face up
- one - face down
-one will be hanging with ceiling fan - one will be hanging upsidown
You will see a complete state of anarchy.
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Dear Nerspi
See how did we get this Quran word of Allah ?
Allah did not come directly to us.
A person told us first that he was a prophet ,----- we believe
Then he tells us that this revelation which has been given to me ----- we believe
When he tells us I have been told how to say prayers ---- We reject.
Quran is sort of constituition.While Sunna is in place of Penal code.
Constituition of a country says the life of every citizen must be protected but it will not tell the methodology.It is given in penal code /legistation how to protect.Constituition = Quran
Legistation = SunnaQuran tells = say prayer
Prophet tells = how to say it
Quran tells = perform Hajj
Prophet tells = how to perform Hajj
No one says that prophet's eating ,sleeping ,laughing ,weeping has be followed.If Quran aloners are put in one room and ask them to say prayer ,every one will be prostating in a different direction.
-one -----east- one --- west
- one - north
- one - south
- one - east south
- one - east north
- one - south west
- one -west north
- one - face up
- one - face down
yeah
Correct logic
Allah did not come directly to us.
We are born and hear/see this book called a quran which claims to be from God - we do not believe without verifying. After verifying, we believe.
This book tells us it was revealed to one "Ahmad" or "Muhammad" - we believe.
Alongside that, it informs us of many facts and gives guidance - we believe.
The Quran is a constitution, penal code and all the branches of government combined. It has checks and balances, a central authority, and self-preservation. Some unconstitutional leaders may pass laws under dictatorial authority but these by-laws are based on hearsay and have a weak foundation and would be thrown out in court.
Quran tells = Adhere to salat
Quran tells = Adhere to hajj
Quran does not tell Do standing and sitting exercises 5 times a day
Quran does not tell Walk around a cube 7 times while reciting the pagan chant
Quran does tell This is a fully detailed book, where the truth has been made distinct from falsehood, and in which hadeeth after this will they believe?Constitution = Quran
Legislation = QuranIf Sunnis & Shia and others are put in one room and ask them to say prayer ,every one will be prostating in a different direction.
-one Iranian Shia -----east, invoking Ali- one Egyptian Sunni --- west, invoking Muhammad's blessed intercession
- one African Sunni - north, mixes tradition with deen (as do the others)
- one hardline, yet clueless British convert- south
- one - east south
- one - east north
- one - south west
- one -west north
- one Malaysian astronaut- face up (http//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/27/wspace27.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/27/ixworld.html)
- one female Malaysian astronaut- face down (men cannot pray in the same region as women, there must be a barrier and what better barrier than the whole bloody Earth... This is my official fatwa on this issue stamp - Though if the woman breastfeeds each of the men praying, she may share the same hemisphere of Earth as the men because she will become their mother)
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peace
Joe, Navid, i agree
Allen, i have to ask, why didn't God Himself describe more details in the quran, regarding prayer, hajj...?
is it that hard to say more words? would 2 more pages be too much?
why would He leave that for a human to decide?
besides muhammad didn't invent the prayer or hajj, so why do we have to do it his way? -
peace
Joe, Navid, i agree
Allen, i have to ask, why didn't God Himself describe more details in the quran, regarding prayer, hajj...?
is it that hard to say more words? would 2 more pages be too much?
why would He leave that for a human to decide?
besides muhammad didn't invent the prayer or hajj, so why do we have to do it his way?Dear
This is wrong to say that the prophet told these details on his own.Again these were from Almighty Allah.Why it was not mentioned in the Quran ,the exact cause only Allah can tell.
As I have mentioned earlier
If prophet says = I am prophet = we accept.Right ?
If Prophet says this word of God (Al-Quran) = we accept .Right ?
Once prophet says this is the method of prayer or Hajj taught to me by Allah = we reject .Reason ???
If he is a liar ,then nothing is acceptable.Neither Quran nor his prophethood.
If he is true and honest what is the reason for rejection of the third option.
Another thing please do clear
There is a lot of difference between
-- being Against Quran
--being More than Quran
These two concepts are not synonymous.People usually think that
"more than Quran is equivalent to against the Quran".
I give the example.
Quran says that prayer should be said but does not tell us number of Rakka.If prophet tells us that it is- Two in the morning
-four afternoon
-four asr
-three maghrab
-four isha
How does it become against the Quran.You can say it is "just more than quran" or explanation of Quranic order to say prayers how to do it. These Rakka do not antagonise any decree of the Quran.
Rest assure all orders of the Holy Prophet concerning Ibaada are told by Almight Allah to him.These were not his self cooked orders.
If he was a wicked person (maazallah) ,then book given by him loses all of its authenticity right away.
One word of caution;
Yes one thing can be questioned if something is related to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as his saying ,whether it is really his saying or not.
Once proved then a muslim is bound to act upon it as any other order or Islam.
So many traditions which people produce as a bias against traditions are fake and wrong.
- Two in the morning
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The quran says to not follow any other source of divine guidance/law. The quran also says it is detailed and clearly explained. If it doesn't have some piece of information that you or the hadith desire, that does not mean the quran needs extra sources beside it. "hadith has detail x, y, z, the quran doesn't, we must follow hadith" is circular. Allen and co. will never answer to the verses that explicitly state the quran is detailed, clearly explained, complete. They will never answer the verses that say to not follow any other source of divine guidance/law, hadith. The quran is all we need.
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Dear
This is wrong to say that the prophet told these details on his own.Again these were from Almighty Allah.Why it was not mentioned in the Quran ,the exact cause only Allah can tell.
As I have mentioned earlier
If prophet says = I am prophet = we accept.Right ?
If Prophet says this word of God (Al-Quran) = we accept .Right ?
Once prophet says this is the method of prayer or Hajj taught to me by Allah = we reject .Reason ???
If he is a liar ,then nothing is acceptable.Neither Quran nor his prophethood.
If he is true and honest what is the reason for rejection of the third option.
Another thing please do clear
There is a lot of difference between
-- being Against Quran
--being More than Quran
These two concepts are not synonymous.People usually think that
"more than Quran is equivalent to against the Quran".
I give the example.
Quran says that prayer should be said but does not tell us number of Rakka.If prophet tells us that it is- Two in the morning
-four afternoon
-four asr
-three maghrab
-four isha
How does it become against the Quran.You can say it is "just more than quran" or explanation of Quranic order to say prayers how to do it. These Rakka do not antagonise any decree of the Quran.
Rest assure all orders of the Holy Prophet concerning Ibaada are told by Almight Allah to him.These were not his self cooked orders.
If he was a wicked person (maazallah) ,then book given by him loses all of its authenticity right away.
One word of caution;
Yes one thing can be questioned if something is related to the Holy Prophet (PBUH) as his saying ,whether it is really his saying or not.
Once proved then a muslim is bound to act upon it as any other order or Islam.
So many traditions which people produce as a bias against traditions are fake and wrong.
Please post authentic hadith instructions on how exactly to perform prayer (i.e. describe Rakka, etc.) or Hajj?
Those things not already mentioned in Qur?an.
Thanks in advance for the info.
- Two in the morning
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Please post authentic hadith instructions on how exactly to perform prayer (i.e. describe Rakka, etc.) or Hajj?
Those things not already mentioned in Qur?an.
Thanks in advance for the info.
What is your criteria of authentic Hadith ?
If it is proved through authentic Hadith that prophet (PBUH) said so ? then you are ready to accept as source of Deen ??