Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation
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Hi Bigmo-
Hmmm... good point I recall the Quran saying that the animals and the mountains and the clouds submit to God's will. Does anyone know if any of these verses use the arabic word "muslim" to describe the animals / mountains / clouds and if so, what verses?
3.79 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people "Be ye my worshippers rather than God's" on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."
3.80 Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To God in Islam)?
3.81 Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." God said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
3.82 If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.
3.83. Do they seek for other than the Religion of God-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will , and to Him shall they all be brought back.
3.84. Say "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."
3.85. If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
(79) (80) (81) (82) (83) (84)
The word Islam appears in all the bolded parts of these verses.
Also
?Do you not see that to God bow down in worship (sujood) all things that are in the heavens and on the earth - the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the animals?? (Quran 221
?The seven heavens and the earth and all the beings therein proclaim His glory There is not a thing but celebrates His praise(do tasbeeh), but you understand not how they declare His glory?? (Quran 1744)
?To God bow all beings (do sujood) in the heavens and the earth - with good will or in spite of themselves?? (Quran 1315)
Also
Al-Hajj (Chapter 22, Verse 1
"Don't you see that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth - the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the animals, and a great number among mankind? But a great number are also such as are fit for punishment and such as Allah shall disgrace, none can raise to honor for Allah carried out all that He wills."Al-Nahl (Chapter 16, Verses 49-50)
"And unto Allah prostrate all that is in heavens and on earth, whether moving living creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord). They all fear their Lord High above them, and they do all that they are commanded." -
Hi Allen-
I am interested in your interpretation of 383
Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?
It looks to me like the Arabic word used here is ?
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Hi Allen-
I am interested in your interpretation of 383
Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?
It looks to me like the Arabic word used here is ?
Dear Sabboushi
You have put the following verse
383
(383) Do they now seek a religion other than prescribed by Allah even though all that is in the heavens and the earth is in submission to Him *71 - willing or unwillingly - and to Him all shall return?Before discussing its use of word let me clear a few points about any language.
In any language (I am sure about English and Arabic) there are certain fundamental things which are essential to understand for proper comprehension of that language. One of them is "DEFINITE ARTICLE " In English it is "THE" while in Arabic it is "AL- "
I give the example in English first which I have already given in one of my posts here. I need to repeat them here
Look at the following pairs of sentences.These have absolutely different in meaning by the use of article "THE"
1He went to school .
He went to the schoolHe went to sea.
He went to the sea.Another example
In UK (for that matter in English)- conservative = moderate ,cautious
But when you capitalize it with a "THE " preceding it develops a different meaning
The Conservatives = persons belonging to the Conservative Party in UK
In same way
- English = Language
- The English = The people of England
See how the change in the definite article changes the connotation of meanings.
Same is the case with Arabic.Here the definite Article used is " Al?" For example
- Kitaab = any book (indefinite noun )
- Al ? kitaab = The Book = it is a specific Book which is revealed .
In no way you can take its meaning as book of medicine or physics or chemistry which is on your book shelf.
Another example - Quraan = recitation
- Al ? Quran = That particular book which we refer it as "Quran Majeed"
Exactly in the same way
Aslama = To submit
Islam = submission = this can be applied to anyone who submits willingly/unwillingly no matter who he/she /it is .It will practically mean 'sumission to Law of nature"- may be human beings (whether momineen or kaafir)
- may be animals
- many be inanimate object
This is the type of 'islam " which is described in this Aya
But word which Quran has used is not "islam" but "Al- islam" .It is a specific type of 'islam" which is only and only for human beings.This word has been used in the Holy Quran 6 times
Look at these verses
319
(319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16
385
(385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers
53
This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.(6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *
3922
(3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *
617
(617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoersFROM THESE VERSES WE CAN DEDUCT THE CONCLUSION THAT
? AL ? ISLAM IS THE A COMPLETE CODE OF LIFE (AL- DEEN )
? 319
? (319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16? WHOSOEVER DOES NOT ACCEPTS OTHER THAN AL-ISLAM ' WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED ON THE DOOMSDAY
? 385
? (385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers? AL-ISLAM WAS NOT REVEALED AT ONCE RATHER GRADUALLY AND COMPLETED WHEN THIS VERSE WAS REVEALED ;
? 53
? This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.? AL ? ISLAM IS RELATED WITH GUIDANCE
?
? (6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *? AL ? ISLAM IS JUST LIKE A LIGHT FROM RABB
? 3922
? (3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *? AL ? ISLAM NEEDS TO BE INVITED
? 617
? (617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoers.Now again look at your verse and see the word 'aslama' used in general sense (Law of nature) while word "Al ? islam" is a particular one.
- conservative = moderate ,cautious
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Dear Sabboushi
You have put the following verse
383
(383) Do they now seek a religion other than prescribed by Allah even though all that is in the heavens and the earth is in submission to Him *71 - willing or unwillingly - and to Him all shall return?Before discussing its use of word let me clear a few points about any language.
In any language (I am sure about English and Arabic) there are certain fundamental things which are essential to understand for proper comprehension of that language. One of them is "DEFINITE ARTICLE " In English it is "THE" while in Arabic it is "AL- "
I give the example in English first which I have already given in one of my posts here. I need to repeat them here
Look at the following pairs of sentences.These have absolutely different in meaning by the use of article "THE"
1He went to school .
He went to the schoolHe went to sea.
He went to the sea.Another example
In UK (for that matter in English)- conservative = moderate ,cautious
But when you capitalize it with a "THE " preceding it develops a different meaning
The Conservatives = persons belonging to the Conservative Party in UK
In same way
- English = Language
- The English = The people of England
See how the change in the definite article changes the connotation of meanings.
Same is the case with Arabic.Here the definite Article used is " Al?" For example
- Kitaab = any book (indefinite noun )
- Al ? kitaab = The Book = it is a specific Book which is revealed .
In no way you can take its meaning as book of medicine or physics or chemistry which is on your book shelf.
Another example - Quraan = recitation
- Al ? Quran = That particular book which we refer it as "Quran Majeed"
Exactly in the same way
Aslama = To submit
Islam = submission = this can be applied to anyone who submits willingly/unwillingly no matter who he/she /it is .It will practically mean 'sumission to Law of nature"- may be human beings (whether momineen or kaafir)
- may be animals
- many be inanimate object
This is the type of 'islam " which is described in this Aya
But word which Quran has used is not "islam" but "Al- islam" .It is a specific type of 'islam" which is only and only for human beings.This word has been used in the Holy Quran 6 times
Look at these verses
319
(319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16
385
(385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers
53
This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.(6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *
3922
(3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *
617
(617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoersFROM THESE VERSES WE CAN DEDUCT THE CONCLUSION THAT
? AL ? ISLAM IS THE A COMPLETE CODE OF LIFE (AL- DEEN )
? 319
? (319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16? WHOSOEVER DOES NOT ACCEPTS OTHER THAN AL-ISLAM ' WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED ON THE DOOMSDAY
? 385
? (385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers? AL-ISLAM WAS NOT REVEALED AT ONCE RATHER GRADUALLY AND COMPLETED WHEN THIS VERSE WAS REVEALED ;
? 53
? This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.? AL ? ISLAM IS RELATED WITH GUIDANCE
?
? (6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *? AL ? ISLAM IS JUST LIKE A LIGHT FROM RABB
? 3922
? (3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *? AL ? ISLAM NEEDS TO BE INVITED
? 617
? (617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoers.Now again look at your verse and see the word 'aslama' used in general sense (Law of nature) while word "Al ? islam" is a particular one.
Islam is the noun. Aslama is the verb. Whats your point?
The word muslimoon is also used.
O you who believe, observe your duty to God with right observance, and die not except in a state of submission (to Him). And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of God, and do not separate, and remember God's favor unto you how you were enemies and He put love between your hearts so that you became as brothers by His grace and how you were upon the brink of a fire and He saved you from it. Thus God makes clear His revelations unto you so that you may be guided" (3102-103).
Here Muslimoon is used. Whats the point?
- conservative = moderate ,cautious
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Islam is the noun. Aslama is the verb. Whats your point?
The word muslimoon is also used.
O you who believe, observe your duty to God with right observance, and die not except in a state of submission (to Him). And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of God, and do not separate, and remember God's favor unto you how you were enemies and He put love between your hearts so that you became as brothers by His grace and how you were upon the brink of a fire and He saved you from it. Thus God makes clear His revelations unto you so that you may be guided" (3102-103).
Here Muslimoon is used. Whats the point?
Dear Bigmo
Short paradigm of 'aslama goes like this"
,, ,=
I hope it helps. -
So when people ask me what my religion is (in an english conversation), I do not say that I am "muslim". That makes about as much sense to me as saying "Allah" instead of "God" in an english conversation. I tell people that I am one who tries hard to submit my will to God.
Any thoughts on this?
Salam Sabboushi,
My own interpretation; today's meanings of "religion" is actualy "sect".
when people ask me "what my religion is" I perceived it to "To which sect do you belong to"
Thus my answer became NONE, I don't belong to any sect or religion.
Furthermore they usually ask another question Why?
My answer Because I've had enough of Sectarianism..Peace
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when asked what religion i am, i say "muslim".
if asked to elaborate or defend islam, i explain that i'm a universalist muslim, and i follow only the Quran. this usually opens up an interesting discussion about hadith, God, religion, universalism, and truth.
if i have a Quran with me, and they have some time, i'll pore over it with them to explain my interpretation, and we usually find that we really don't have a lot to argue about.
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when asked what religion i am, i say "muslim".
if asked to elaborate or defend islam, i explain that i'm a universalist muslim, and i follow only the Quran. this usually opens up an interesting discussion about hadith, God, religion, universalism, and truth.
if i have a Quran with me, and they have some time, i'll pore over it with them to explain my interpretation, and we usually find that we really don't have a lot to argue about.
Dear Ayani
There is a lot of difference bewteen Quran aloners and Traditionalist;T = Traditionalist
Q= Quran alonerT = prophet was truthful in every aspect
Q= Prophet was partially truthful (Quran =yes ,rest = no)T= Qibla is Kaaba
Q = Qibla is abstract (no one knows)T= 5 times prayers
Q = Not sure (some = two ,some = three ,some (pervaize) = five)T= Ritual which is duty for every one who can afford
Q = Just a congregationT= Quran preserved
Q= Some- preserved, some- not (RK followers)T= No Prophet after the Holy prophet PBUH
Q =Some ,no prophet' some prophets can still come as 'rasool and RK is one of them.These are such huge differences of faith both cannot be put in same category.
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Allen yes, but still...
i'm reminded of those Protestant Christians who are proud of their adherence to only the Bible, and reject or ridicule, say, Catholics as non-Christian or misguided.
there are many differences, but we are still all Muslims. i identify as such, and if asked to elaborate or justify my faith, i do. i worship with Baptists, Quakers, Catholics, Sunni Muslims, and Baha'is. what matters to me is the 'connection', and unity in fellowship, not titles or sects.
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T = prophet was truthful in every aspect
Q= Prophet was partially truthful (Quran =yes ,rest = no)Am I to take this seriously?
That's fallacious because unless you PERSONALLY knew the prophet, you can't draw that conclusion. If you think the prophet was truthful from the day he was born 'till the day he died, please visit a mental institution. I am not trying to mock you, but this is out of sheer concern. The highlighted is also a common practice fallacy as well as appeal to belief.
Biased sample (highlighted in red).
T= Qibla is Kaaba
Q = Qibla is abstract (no one knows)Hasty generalization. Also, Biased sample.
T= 5 times prayers
Q = Not sure (some = two ,some = three ,some (pervaize) = five)Biased sample
T= Ritual which is duty for every one who can afford
Q = Just a congregationAppeal to authority, appeal to belief, appeal to tradition.
Highlighted in red is Biased sample.
I can do this all day, but I will stop.
Peace.
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Am I to take this seriously?
That's fallacious because unless you PERSONALLY knew the prophet, you can't draw that conclusion. If you think the prophet was truthful from the day he was born 'till the day he died, please visit a mental institution. I am not trying to mock you, but this is out of sheer concern. The highlighted is also a common practice fallacy as well as appeal to belief.
Biased sample (highlighted in red).
Hasty generalization. Also, Biased sample.
Biased sample
Appeal to authority, appeal to belief, appeal to tradition.
Highlighted in red is Biased sample.
I can do this all day, but I will stop.
Peace.
Biased samples without any proof as usual.After what can be expected from the followers of
What do these numbers tell ??
Rashid = =
200+1+300+4= 505 = 5+0+5=10=1+0= 1
Shaitaan =
300+10+9+1+50=370=3+7+0=10=1+0=1Theory of 19
= 1+9 = 10=1+0 = 1
The earth was purified from him in 1990
=1+9+9+0 = 19 =1+9 =10 =1+0=1interesting !!!!!
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giveup
I gave you a fair chance LEOXYZ, Now I know you are not here to discuss ANYTHING. All you are interested in is polluting this forum. Peace be upon you, I will not discuss anything with you because you've shown an inability to be rational or logical in any way.
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T = prophet was truthful in every aspect
Q= Prophet was partially truthful (Quran =yes ,rest = no)There is a difference between being imperfect and being untruthful.
Of course, I wouldn't expect someone who prefers generalisations and inaccurate language to understand such a difference.
It seems your 2nd chance will soon be up.
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Peace "allen", "ayaani" and all,
I dont call myself "muslim" when asked by one who doesnt speak Arabic and is unaware of the Quranic context of the term. I call myself a "submitter to GOD". And yes theres a huge difference between tradiitonal hislamics and those who follow Quran Alone. Those two are not reconciliable by any means. I dont want to be with them by any means. IMO they are the greatest hypocrites, taqiyyah practicing fascists alive on the planet today. GOD Bless! -
Peace "allen", "ayaani" and all,
I dont call myself "muslim" when asked by one who doesnt speak Arabic and is unaware of the Quranic context of the term. I call myself a "submitter to GOD". And yes theres a huge difference between tradiitonal hislamics and those who follow Quran Alone. Those two are not reconciliable by any means. I dont want to be with them by any means. IMO they are the greatest hypocrites, taqiyyah practicing fascists alive on the planet today. GOD Bless!jonny 409-12 and 607
even if we have issues with how others practice faith, we should speak of and to others in a fair and respectful way, and leave judgment up to Allah, who knows best, and who has the power to reform people's hearts if He wishes.
i agree that there is a lot within traditional islam these days that could change, though. may Allah grant us clarity, patience, and understanding, and refer us to His Reminder.
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7 years later, and I am still examining this )
When I initiated this thread, I lacked the (little bit of) knowledge of Arabic and grammar I needed to post the following question
I'm comparing two verses 272 and 1689. Translations vary, but I'm using corpus.quran.com to do a word-by-word analysis (Thanks Kais Dukes... wish you had time to finish the project).
Both verses are talking about (as I understand it) to whom the Quran is a guidance and glad tidings "believers" (2723) and "Muslims" (168924).
272 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27
1689 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=89I didn't count, but browsing through these dozens of translations http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/16/89/default.htm, it looks like about as many people translated the word as didn't (e.g. "surrendered themselves to God" vs. "Muslims"
My question involves parts of speech.
For you knowledgeable classical Arabic grammarians, I'm hoping someone can explain exactly what the difference is between these two words whereby one has been labeled a noun ("believers" and the other a proper noun ("Muslims" as seen in the links.
Both words have been categorized (in the links) as "genitive masculine plural (form IV) active participle" / " ".
In summary Is there anything in the derived word "" that indicates that it is a proper noun instead of a noun, or is this just an opinion (much like the opinion of those who choose not to translate the word)? Or another way to ask the question, how does one recognize whether an Arabic word is a proper noun?
My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.
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My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.
Salam Sister.
I agree with your statement above.
I would like to offer some thoughts on the usage of the term muslim or islam. Per my understanding of Qur'an, islam is the name of our DEEN and deen does not mean religion. My preferred translation of deen is "resolution", but alternative translations like - "life-view" or "way of life" can be used.
On the other hand our religion (millat) is supposed to be Millat-i-Ibrahim (i.e. Abrahamic Religion). Judaism, Christianity, Shiaism, Sunnism, Sufism, Shikhism, Bahaism, Submission (RK) and in some cases Quranism (where the proponent thinks Quranism is the only acceptable path) are all various sects within the Millat-i-Ibrahim.
Per my understanding, although sectarianism is strongly discouraged in Qur'an, it is theoretically possible for any of the followers of sects under millat-i-Abraham to be a muslim, if they are clear and uncompromising about their deen (resolution) they believe in God, believe in Last Day and submit to God by striving to lead a righteous life. I believe Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism etc. are religions outside Millat-i-Ibrahim, but their followers, too, can be muslims if they meet the underlined criteria above. The necessary ingredients for deen of Islam is built into human soul - we do not necessarily have to believe a particular messenger or follow a particular book to believe in God and to submit to Him by upholding our conscience and intellect. But that being said it is extremely difficult to be firm on resolution (deen) while being negligent about religion (millat) - and that's why we have been mandated to follow Millat-i-Ibrahim in Qur'an.
So for my identity - I prefer to say, my resolution (deen) is submission (islam) and my religion (millat) is Millat-i-Ibrahim.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
