The ?God Alone? Challenge
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Peace,
Firstly, God is basically synonymous with the quran (if you believe it is from God, obviously). If one replaces "the quran" with "God's message/words," this becomes evident.
Second, the argument that because we have different understandings of concepts is somehow bad or divided is purely subjective. It has no real substance, yet it is used over and over.
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You are always sensitive about the fact that PM have no consensus and great disagreement about basic issue within submission. Look, I dont want you to ban me again like you did last time about this touchy topic of yours.......so lets just focus on the questions okay.
I am sensitive about baseless commentary/accusations, especially if they include me.
Unfortunately for you, you again stated the same baseless comment. If you cannot provide evidence for your statements, you will either have to rescind your comments publicly or your case will be referred to admin/moderators, as it is a rule violation.
You will be given one week as of now to provide evidence.
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Peace,
If GOD says messenger can explain things, why do people like you have a hard time accepting the fact that a messenger can still come an explain certain verse without deviating from the fact the Quran is still fully detailed?
So I reckon you follow Muhammad's hadeeth too? No it's only Rashad's that count right! Muhammad explained things, why don't you follow it?
God does NOT run out of words (18109, 3127). God is the one who explains the quran (7516-19) and God is the teacher of the quran (551-2)
Read Quran hadith and Islam and this time replace Muhammad with Rashad.
Also, answer these questions Edip Yuksel asks
The Questions
I am presenting several questions to demonstrate that there are some people who pretend to follow the Quran alone, but in fact they do not. Here are my questions
- Who did originally use the word Islam, or Muslim? In other words, who did first coin the name of the only religion acceptable by God?
a) God (985; 319; 385; 1072; 227.
b) Abraham.
- Did God create the earth in four days (periods) because the complexity of its design REQUIRED longer period, or HE chose to create it in four days for certain reasons?
a) God is NOT required by anything; He can create anything He wants by merely saying ?be? and it ?becomes? as the case in Big Bang (2117; 347; 673; 3682; 406. But, He might have CHOSEN evolution for some reasons.
b) The complexity of Earth?s design REQUIRED longer time for its creation in 4 days.
- Does the Quran advocate consultation among believers or consensus? Do they mean the same thing?
a) The Quran advises us to consult each other (423.
b) The Quran advises us to have consensus.
- Do believers have devil companions (qareen)? (Companions; not whisperers).
a) No, devil companions are assigned by God to ardent disbelievers after they have proven that they are fanatic disbelievers (438; 4336)
b) Yes, WE ALL have DEVIL COMPANIONS from jinns.
- Can Satan be God?s representative on earth?
a) God's arch enemy cannot represent God and there is no such thing as "a temporary god" (4345). Humans are born with God's "revelation" (ruh) (329) embedded in their conscious mind (nafs), thus they are able to represent God on earth by submitting to His will (3826; 6165; 1014; 1073; 3539)
b) Satan was appointed by God as His representative.
- Is there water-dependent life on other planets?
a) Yes, life dependent creatures (dabba) are distributed on both earth and in the universe (2445; 4229; 1649).
a) No, life is only on earth.
- Did God Almighty send messengers to every community?
a) No, God did not send messenger to every community; but to every nation (3524; 2551 & 366).
b) Yes God sent messengers to every community.
- Is the so-called ?authorized English translation? the word of God which is free of contradictions (482) and unimitatable (223); or is it word of a human messenger which contains contradictions (482) and lacks miraculous evidence of its divine source (223)?
a. All the translations of the Quran carry the characteristic of their human translators fallible, limited in information, containing contradictions, and lack the divine evidence and guarantee of preservation. As an example, see the contradiction created by translating two different Arabic word with one English word 2912 x 2913. Also the verses mentioned above in the question number seven.
b. The divine statement ?Authorized English Version? means that Rashad?s translation is the same as the word of God.
- Which direction is the qibla in Tucson?
a. North-East, since the shortest curve that connects Tucson to Mecca on a round Earth shows North-East. All astronomers and experts in navigation are in agreement. You can verify this easily on a globe by connecting Tucson with Mecca with a piece of string.
b. Though we come up with various reasons, we all follow the shortest line that connects Tucson to Mecca on a flat map.. Nevertheless, the practice (not Sunnah!) of the "Messenger of the Covenant" is the real reason. Unfortunately, some of us are confused between East and South-East. Again, the words and practice of the Messenger of Covenant is different than hadith and sunnah.
- Why don't you follow Muhammedan hadiths besides the Quran?
a. Because the Quran is detailed, complete and the only source of God's law (619;38;114). We should devote our religion to God alone (985), not God + messenger + ulama, etc. Accepting any authority besides God as another source of God's religion is shirk, the only unforgivable sin.
b. We do not follow hadith because they are not authentic. Otherwise, we would be glad to follow other sources besides the Quran. In fact, we follow many teachings of the Messenger of the Covenant besides the Quran. BTW, we are trying to call them with a different name, even some of us tried to call them as "part of the Quran." We know that hadith and sunnah are satanic teachings.
I chose "a" as the correct answer for all the 10 questions above. I believe that if you pick "b" as your answer for all or most of the questions you are fooling yourself by claiming that you are following the Quran alone.
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If you cannot provide evidence for your statements, you will either have to rescind your comments publicly or your case will be referred to admin/moderators, as it is a rule violation.
You will be given one week as of now to provide evidence.
LOL! this is amazing. once again Wakas wants to ban me. do what you will wakas, you will do it any way.
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Second, the argument that because we have different understandings of concepts is somehow bad or divided is purely subjective. It has no real substance, yet it is used over and over.
my argument and challenge was not about your understanding of the koran as being correct or incorrect. The questions a clear, would you follow the guidance of another messenger after muhammed. it is clear many will not because of this abuse of Quran alone. IF GOD is the source of your religion, and if GOD teaches the Quran, and if GOD says messenger explains things, then there shouldn't be hesitation to follow the guidance of any authentic messenger. but base on people reacts, this seems untrue.
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my argument and challenge was not about your understanding of the koran as being correct or incorrect. The questions a clear, would you follow the guidance of another messenger after muhammed. it is clear many will not because of this abuse of Quran alone. IF GOD is the source of your religion, and if GOD teaches the Quran, and if GOD says messenger explains things, then there shouldn't be hesitation to follow the guidance of any authentic messenger. but base on people reacts, this seems untrue.
I was addressing your oftenly used argument about division.
As for messengers, my view of a messenger is not that of a prophet. We have many messengers here, in my opinion. If they explain things in accordance with the quran, I "follow" them.
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So I reckon you follow Muhammad's hadeeth too? No it's only Rashad's that count right! Muhammad explained things, why don't you follow it?
The haidths are not Muhammed words. They cannot be proven as such. i dont follow muhammed words because GOD said Muhammed sole duty was to deliever the message (592). Now that the Quran have been deilever by Muhammed succesfully, what is the duty of a messenger after Muhammed? To deliever the Quran again? Or explain things like verse 519 says (explaining things to the people of have the scripture, the quran (519)).
God does NOT run out of words (18109, 3127). God is the one who explains the quran (7516-19) and God is the teacher of the quran (551-2)
true, true, and true, but he says messenger explains things as well (519)? Does he not say this?
Also, answer these questions Edip Yuksel asks
I have high respect for Mr Yuksel, but that doesn't mean he is free from errors. here are a few yet major errors
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Who did originally use the word Islam, or Muslim? In other words, who did first coin the name of the only religion acceptable by God?
GOD said Abraham was the first to coined the term submitters. that doesnt mean Abraham was first to create the word. Coin mean adopt as ours. for example, is the person who first coin the word "mouse" for a computer mouse created the word? Or does that mean the person simply adopted the word to market a device. the same is with Abraham. he was first to adopted the terms to related to his religion. remember, GOD says muhammed followed the religion of Abraham (2278, 367). An example of Abraham using the term is in verse 2132. -
Do believers have devil companions (qareen)? (Companions; not whisperers).
what is a whisperer? are they not jinn as well(1146). Cannot the devil whisperer to human (720, 20120). if so, how can one "whisper into the chests of the people" if he is not your constant companion. -
Can Satan be God?s representative on earth?
Yuksel said "God's arch enemy cannot represent God and there is no such thing as "a temporary god" (4345)." Yet GOD himself says the satan is not GOD's enemy but ours (2168, 2208, 356).
Another error was that Yuksel within this article never quotes any verses next to the answer that supports RK arguments like (3660, 1651). The fact is Satan can indeed be worship like a god (4117, 1944). Plus the Quran confirms this from previous scriptures. Plus verse 230 says
Khalifa
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
Yusuf Ali
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
Pickthal
And when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee ? He said Surely I know that which ye know not.
Shakir
And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said Surely I know what you do not know.
Sher Ali
And when thy Lord said to the angels,I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth,' they saidWilt THOU place therein such as will cause disorder in it, and shed blood ? - and we glorify THEE with THY praise and extol THY holiness,' HE answered, `I know what you know not.'
"Progressive Muslims"
And your Lord said to the Angels "I am placing a successor on earth." They said "Would You place in it those who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said "I know what you do not know."It says it will place 'a' representative. One representative. Not many representatives. Not humanS as representatives. That is the crucial element many overlook. The angels says "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" They didnt say "will you place those who will do this and that.
- Why don't you follow Muhammedan hadiths besides the Quran?
An even important question is; is it impossible for GOD to deilever a messenger after muhammed, and what will that messenger mission be since the quran is already delievered?
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PS everyone. I would most likely be ban within a week by Wakas. just a heads up if i don't answer your responses. i received a personal message demanding evidence with a week or consequences.
I am sensitive about baseless commentary/accusations, especially if they include me.
did i mention your name in that statement. if "the forum/movement is not a collective group", why are you so sensitive about me using the term "progressive muslims"? is it me who is frustrated or you?
Unfortunately for you, you again stated the same baseless comment. If you cannot provide evidence for your statements, you will either have to rescind your comments publicly or your case will be referred to admin/moderators, as it is a rule violation.
what is my case. that i state "PM" and "quran alone movement" in quotations. remember the last time you said quotations were permissible? Or is it you are flip-flopping on your words because you hate me for to say "PM" have not consensus with or without evidence. Why don't you take the approach of other who say "no consensus is a good thing" and stop trying to take out your frustration on me.
You will be given one week as of now to provide evidence.
ok. thanks.
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And your Lord said to the Angels "I am placing a successor on earth." They said "Would You place in it those who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said "I know what you do not know."
It says it will place 'a' representative. One representative. Not many representatives. Not humanS as representatives. That is the crucial element many overlook. The angels says "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" They didnt say "will you place those who will do this and that.
I've never really looked at it in this way. It does kind of make sense about ONE representative possibly being the devil. But then again it could also be the first human on earth but the problem I find with that though is that Allah does say he created things in pairs. ???
PEACE
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To deliever the Quran again? Or explain things like verse 519 says (explaining things to the people of have the scripture, the quran (519)).
People of the book (ahla al kitabi) NEVER, I repeat NEVER refers to 'quran followers'. Always, repeat ALWAYS refers to previous scriptures. See (364-65, 370-71, 398-99, 4171, 515, 519, 577 etc...) Futhermore, if ahla al kitabi referred to quran followers, some of the other verses would sound absolutely ridiculous.
but he says messenger explains things as well (519)? Does he not say this?
That messenger is not/ cannot be Rashad in 519. I am not going to get into whether he's a messenger or not. We have 84 different threads about that subject anyway.
Furthermore, the message to all the messengers is the same. No-one brings any different teachings. see 4143, 4213
As for 230, It's quiet simple really, no extra-ordinary manipulations necessary to achieve a desired result. READ THE NEXT VERSE. Also, tell me where in the ARABIC is 'temporary God' in that verse?
is it impossible for GOD to deilever a messenger after muhammed, and what will that messenger mission be since the quran is already delievered?
Nothing is impossible. I do believe there are messengers after Muhammad. After all, 7th century is hardly my nation.
What will the message be? Same as the others. See 4143, and 4213.
P.S. Read the RK footnote for 2530. (For others, the claim is that RK will say the same thing as Muhammad in that verse. )
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Salam.
I am asking the person who opened this topic.
Sorry that i have to answer with a question but what do you like/dislike about The Quran, Islam, Muslims, if anything? I ask you because i wanna be informed, not to cause problems?
No offence, my friend.Peace.
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SHM, you talk much but evidence little...
I will add another to your baseless comments
I would most likely be ban within a week by Wakas
No moderator or admin has the power to ban anyone. It must be a group decision, unless its an obvious spammer etc.
tick tock...
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The ?God Alone? Challenge
1.Can GOD reveal other religious guidance beside what is mention in the Quran?
a.Yes, GOD is the source of the religion (6114).
b.No, the Quran is fully detailed with regards to all religious guidance.
c.I don?t know I will need evidence I guessANSWER The Quran is fully detalied and if something is not in there then it does not matter or the decision has been left to you, that's how God is soooo Merciful, yet many don't see that Mercy or care for it.
2.If a proven messenger of GOD after Muhammad delivers a divine explanation for one verse in the Quran that was supported by evidence, would you follow that explanation even thought that explanation is not mention in the Quran?
a.Yes, I believe and follow what GOD revealed (7456)
b.No, it not in the Quran and the Quran is fully detailed.
c.I only follow it because it was supported by evidence and not because it was divinely revealed to that messengerAnswer What does The God say about Muhammad in The Quran? Is he the last prophet, next to last, will there come another messenger ....? There's your answer.
3.Can there be another messenger after Muhammad who is not a prophet but explains previous scripture and message from GOD?
a.Yes, God send messengers to explain (519). GOD teaches the Koran (552).
b.No! The Quran is fully detailed and needs to explanations.
c.I don?t knowAnswer Look at the sentence you asked can there be another messenger who is not a prophet? Then what is he? And if he is not a prophet that means he cannot explain something that a prophet can.
4.Is GOD limited to what he revealed in the Quran, or can He reveal other religious explanation and guidance?
a.Yes, GOD is not limited to anything.
b.No, the Quran is fully detailed and if GOD reveal something else it contradict the claim of it being fully detailed.
c.I don?t knowAnswer God revealed in The Quran what a human being needs to do, know and say and believe in order to reach Paradise. Clear enough?
5.Does an authentic messenger of GOD after Muhammad proven false because what was revealed to him is not mention in the Quran thought the message agree with the message of the Quran and he provided proof of it?
a.No, GOD is the source of the religion can reveal what he pleases (6114).
b.Yes, the Quran is fully detailed and anything reveal to that messenger is false or his mistake since it not in the Quran.
c.I don?t know.Answer Where in The Quran does The God say a messenger is coming after Muhammad dies?
6.Does following the authority of a messenger of GOD with regards to the message delivered to him equals shirk?
a.No, because GOD is the source of the religion and GOD is not limited to previous scripture and can reveal what he pleases (6114).
b.Yes, the Quran is fully detailed and following anything not explicitly mention in the Quran including proven divinely inspired explanations would be shirk.
c.I don?t know.Answer No, where did you get that? We follow Muhammad. Muhammad followed The Quran. Muhammad was of the same religion as Ibrahim - Islam, therefore we all follow Ibrahim, they did practice the same religion - Islam. Clear.
7.If Muhammad actually did say that salat means rituals prayer, and zakat is charity, would you follow him?
a.Yes (581).
b.No, the Quran is fully detailed and anything not mention in the Quran should not be follow. Even with regards to the messenger of GOD and what was reveal to him.
c.I don?t know.Answer Muhammad followed The Quran, we follow Muhammad, ergo, we follow The Quran.
8.Do you make distinction about GOD messengers by thinking some are right while others were wrong?
a.No, all messengers deliver a message from GOD (7456).
b.Yes, some made mistake with regards to what was divinely inspired to them and can misguide people.
c.I don?t know.Answer We are told in The Quran that we are not to make distinction between any of the God's messengers and prophets. Christians failed that test, remember?
9.Do you make distinction about GOD messengers by believing some while disbelieving another?
a.No, I make no distinction among any of His messengers. I hear, and I obey (2285).
b.Yes, I believe in some and reject some and find a middle ground (4150).
c.I don?t know.Answer Fear God.
10.Is GOD the only source of the religion of submission or the Quran?
a.GOD (6114).
b.Quran
c.I don?t know.Answer Quran is the word of The God.
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Salam.
I am asking the person who opened this topic.
Sorry that i have to answer with a question but what do you like/dislike about The Quran, Islam, Muslims, if anything? I ask you because i wanna be informed, not to cause problems?
No offence, my friend.Peace.
i have no problem with islam, muslims or the quran. but it seem people have problems with me asking tough questions, saying things about "progerssive muslims"
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tick tock...
lol!. brother just ban me already. you have done it before and we have a long argument about your justification. it doesn't surprise me if i said PM have no unity that you will get mad and gather you allies against me. im use to it.
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DArgento,
People of the book (ahla al kitabi) NEVER, I repeat NEVER refers to 'quran followers'. Always, repeat ALWAYS refers to previous scriptures. See (364-65, 370-71, 398-99, 4171, 515, 519, 577 etc...) Futhermore, if ahla al kitabi referred to quran followers, some of the other verses would sound absolutely ridiculous.
You are correct. I was wrong.
That messenger is not/ cannot be Rashad in 519. I am not going to get into whether he's a messenger or not. We have 84 different threads about that subject anyway.
My initial thread was not about RK, but about people believe or disbelieving a messenger after Muhammed. About people worshiping the Quran and not GOD as the true source of the religion.
Furthermore, the message to all the messengers is the same. No-one brings any different teachings. see 4143, 4213
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I have to disagree with this. Prophets bring new laws, each messenger bring different proofs etc. Even certain messengers were delivered to specific people like Jesus the ethic people of Jews. The message is the same, but different elements of the message are brought with that message. Abraham was giving the practices of Submission (2132 2127-2, Muhammad was given the Quran etc.
As for 230, It's quiet simple really, no extra-ordinary manipulations necessary to achieve a desired result. READ THE NEXT VERSE. Also, tell me where in the ARABIC is 'temporary God' in that verse?
it 'temporary god' NOT 'temporary God'
Plus RK place it in parenthesis to show that those words are not part of the verse themselves but implied.This is touchy issue. And honestly, it sound wired to me too. How can Satan be a ?representative.? But if you look at the context you will see. Here are so important question
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If GOD was planning to place Adam as a representative on earth why would he place him in paradise and then only evict him after he tasted the tree (23?
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If His plan was to place ONE representative on earth, why will GOD place ALL humans on earth to be subject to Satan influence (1539, 7172)?
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IF GOD was planning to place one representative on earth, why would evict them to earth (727)? Why evict someone if they were no meant to be there in the first place (727)? Unless the representative was already chosen for earth (1539).
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If Adam was initially meant to be a representative, since he is gone (dead to us), who is the representative now?
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If Adam was initially meant to be a representative, since he is gone (dead to us), why was only Satan specifically (not a devil) given respite during this period (1762)?
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If humans (believers) were meant to be representativeS on earth, why would GOD say He is placing ONE representative? Especially not ignoring the fact that Adam and Eve existed. Was Adam alone meant to be the representative and not Eve?
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If you assume 230 is referring to man you are wrong because it specifically mention Adam. Adam was a real human being who lived and died. Assuming 230 refer to mankind, how can it be for mankind when it specifically mentions Adam?
Adam as a representative, even mankind as a representative is not suitable answers to these simply questions.
HOWEVER, God vanish Satan first for not submitting to GOD (713). Then Satan told his plans for ALL humans (714-15, 3882-83). But here is the most important part, Adam and Eve were still in Paradise, not earth (719) during this time. It is clear to me that 230 - 33 was to expose Satan. That is why GOD challenge the angel then told the ANGELS He knows what they conceal (233).
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Can you explain what relevance this story has to do with the authenticity of RK's message?
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Can you explain what relevance this story has to do with the authenticity of RK's message?
what story? plus this thread is not about RK. everyone is assuming im talking about RK but i talking about any messenger after muhammed. what mission would he have? would you believe it especially if it not mention in the Quran. that is the real question people are avoiding. are you worship the quran as the only source or GOD himself?
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15657.0
