Quaranic Compilation Question

ayman

Peace Stephanie,

It is my understanding
The Quran was revealed to the Prophet.
The Prophet recited the passages revealed.
Then my confusion ...
The Prophet was alive while the passages were compiled into a book
OR
The book was compiled after the prophet's death

From the great reading itself, it is clear that it was in written form from the very beginning. It is described in numerous places as a "kitab", i.e. a written document. We are told that the god taught by the pen in 964 NOT the sound. There is also an emphasis in the great reading on writing even mundane things such as business contracts.

Either way how could it be that the 2nd surah opens with "This scripture ...", or "This book..."
If the prophet is speaking the word of God at the time there was no book. Would not the words be "This directive ...", "These words..." or something of that nature since at the time of revelation there was no book.

Exactly.

Now if there was a book compiled after the prophet's death, who states "This scripture ..", or "This book ...". Using the word ?book? or ?scripture? would not be the revealed words as again there was no book but would be the words of the compiler. So on whose authority were the words included, "This book ..." or "This scripture ..."? The compilers?
If in fact the compilers have added words. Where do the words that were added begin and end.

It must have been already compiled.

Just so you know where I am coming from. I believe God revealed holy words and directives to the Prophet. I believe some of them have been captured in the Quran. What I am wondering is how much of it is the actual revelation of the Prophet and how much is the work of the compilers.

The work of the later compilers is clearly superflous things such as chapter titles, verse numbering, and vocalization marks. The text itself is original.

I mean no disrespect to God. I mean no disrespect to the prophet, the book or Islam. I hold nothing higher than God. I love all the prophets and am thankful for God bringing them to help humanity. I believe of all the proported revealed words, the Quran is the most believable. I just don't know how much I can trust that everything in the Quran is the revealed word versus some percentage thereof.

You should know by reading the great reading.

Also why are not the oldest Qurans available for examination? Which verses are in the oldest Qurans and which are not?

The oldest manuscripts of the great reading date to the 7th century CE. So they are relatively early. Some of the manuscripts show signs of writing on top of faded text so the original could have been even earlier. Given that there are several such manuscripts and the fact that the probability of their survival is very low, this means that they came from a much bigger population.

Any information on this topic would be appreciated. I do not want to read the works of those that say poets and or the prophet made the whole thing up. I have read the works of Rashad K. and know about his work with 19.

Rashad K. used numerology to fool people. I recommend that you learn about the tricks of numerology so that you can judge his obsession with 19. I also suggest that you read an unbiased translation or the Arabic orginal of 7430-31 to see the fact that the counting of 19 is only a trial/affliction for the unappreciative.

I am trying to understand the compilation process of the Quran.

Why? We have much better information about the compilation process of Hadiths. Yet those are full of falshood and absurdities. All we know from the great reading is that the god compiled it and preserve it. As for the how, it really doesn't matter. As they say, the truth is in the pudding.

Peace,

Ayman

Roshan

Why? We have much better information about the compilation process of Hadiths. Yet those are full of falshood and absurdities. All we know from the great reading is that the god compiled it and preserve it. As for the how, it really doesn't matter. As they say, the truth is in the pudding.

Peace Ayman

What about all the stories about Uthman and his destruction of 'false Qurans'. We know for a fact the text has been altered with speech marks, and what about the removal of 2 verses by some?

For a group like ours, the compilation of the Quran is fundamental. Sure the Quran takes us upto T=O (as in the start) and guarantees protection, but there are still issues out there since the death of Muhammad.

Roshan

unknownuser

Peace Ayman

What about all the stories about Uthman and his destruction of 'false Qurans'. We know for a fact the text has been altered with speech marks, and what about the removal of 2 verses by some?

For a group like ours, the compilation of the Quran is fundamental. Sure the Quran takes us upto T=O (as in the start) and guarantees protection, but there are still issues out there since the death of Muhammad.

Roshan

Stories, physical evidence beats stories any day.

stephanie01

Peace all,

It sounds like and please correct me if I am wrong.

1.) The Quran was revealed as a book already compiled AND the revealed book was read by the Prophet. So were historical unfoldings known to the Prophet before they happened from his having read them in the revealed book OR did the readings by the Prophet take place after the events happened? Or, were the revelations intertwined with real-time events over time (before and/or after they actually happened)?

AND

2.) The book we are reading today is compiled in the same way with the same CONTENT as the revealed book revealed to the Prophet with the exception of a few dialectical marks, surah heading differences, numbering difference and perhaps a few words (i.e. came versus come, is versus was) which should not be viewed as seriously consequential for the sake of understanding the divine CONTENT of the book we read today.

Soooo

Who compiled the book, after the original book (the book read by the prophet)? Did they add to or take away from the original book? Were the compilers divine? Does the book contain CONTENT from the original book revealed to the Prophet AND less than divine CONTENT inserted by the compilers? Is it all divine?

Has the test of alteration ever been exacted? Please explain. Is it true that historically there have been many-compiled Quran? Was there an effort to remove the false copies? If so, who and how were the false copies discerned?

Peace to you all.

Steph

stephanie01

Peace Stephanie,

From the great reading itself, it is clear that it was in written form from the very beginning. It is described in numerous places as a "kitab", i.e. a written document. We are told that the god taught by the pen in 964 NOT the sound. There is also an emphasis in the great reading on writing even mundane things such as business contracts.

Exactly.

It must have been already compiled.

The work of the later compilers is clearly superflous things such as chapter titles, verse numbering, and vocalization marks. The text itself is original.

You should know by reading the great reading.

The oldest manuscripts of the great reading date to the 7th century CE. So they are relatively early. Some of the manuscripts show signs of writing on top of faded text so the original could have been even earlier. Given that there are several such manuscripts and the fact that the probability of their survival is very low, this means that they came from a much bigger population.

Rashad K. used numerology to fool people. I recommend that you learn about the tricks of numerology so that you can judge his obsession with 19. I also suggest that you read an unbiased translation or the Arabic orginal of 7430-31 to see the fact that the counting of 19 is only a trial/affliction for the unappreciative.

Why? We have much better information about the compilation process of Hadiths. Yet those are full of falshood and absurdities. All we know from the great reading is that the god compiled it and preserve it. As for the how, it really doesn't matter. As they say, the truth is in the pudding.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

God is the greatest not the book. I am for the worship of God Alone not the worship of the Quran. There are things that I have read that I question in the Quran so I have concerns about it's complete authenticity. I see Quran as maybe the purest source of monotheism. That is why I support the book, for what it supports about the worship of God Alone. As for whether I should "know" what is revealed, added or mixed, how should I know when you do not know either. If you do then please let me know. As for RK and numerology I am well versed in his 19 but do not understand why you even brought him up when clearly I said I was not in need of information about RK and 19. I guess you did not read that and felt you needed to direct me into what you believed to be my lack of knowledge on numerology. Thanks.

If I am to understand the word of God and any words in the Quran are passing themselves off as the word of God and are not then how can the message be clear.

Peace Ayman,

I believe God is the greatest and worthy of absolute trust not the book. I have concerns about some Quranic content. Some argue interpretation and others compilation as questionable. I have seen many Arabic scholars on this site and others interpreting the Arabic so I thought I might look into the compilation. I see Quran as the purest source of monotheism I have ever come across. That is why I support the book, for what it supports about the worship of God Alone. As for whether I should "know" what is revealed, added or mixed, how should I know. If you know then please let me know.

As for RK and numerology I am well versed in his 19 but do not understand why you even brought him up when clearly I said I was not in need of information about RK and 19 as a means for understanding the Quran compilation. I guess you did not read that and felt you needed to direct me into what you believed to be my lack of knowledge on numerology. Thanks.

If I am to understand the word of God and any words in the Quran are passing themselves off as the word of God then how can the message be clear. For me it does not discount the whole book. It just brings things into perspective. That is my current research as time permits. With all praise, trust, worship and love for God Most High, Alone.

Peace

stephanie01

Hello Stephanie,

Let me share some views, I came to understand that the Quran is indeed not preserved 100% character by character, and it didn't claim that it would be preserved character by character. Let's see what it claimed, in 159 - the rememberance. The Quran contains the "rememberance" 381 - it is not the "rememberance" itself.

I suggest to see http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/WhichQuran.pdf to realize that it isn't preserved by the character, but rather by the message.

Yes, I do see Rashad Khalifa's findings VERY intersting, but I'll take it moderately, let's see http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/19.pdf also as a practical sincere man's test. There are indeed patterns, but the reason is to increase the faith as in 7431, showing signs of the scripture(s) but I won't go beyond that.

However, if the compilation was done/changed by humans then things such as mathematical patterns like this 19 and also in http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm could not happen. Now let's see what this book that has little differences (not great like completely different versions of other books.) greatly preserved as a whole says about its compilation

7517 It is for Us to gather it into a compilation.
7518 So when We compile it, you shall follow its compilation.
(Yes, in the quran, these occurance of "We" refer to God, see its use in 5147. "We" is also used in other languages for the king speaking of himself to show greatness. Therefore, this book states that God compiled it.)

And also as you said (very good point!) about "this scripture" or "this book" being stated in the Quran itself, it clearly points out that what the hadiths/tradition about its alledgedly late compilation after the messenger's time (I used to see some hadith saying that even goats ate and made lost some parts of it until lost - the stoning part) is clearly false.

Now, Let's also see this

2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."

How can I believe in all the Scriptures now? I don't have originals of all scriptures that were sent down.

I see 2132 - 137 explaining this very well especially in

2133 Or were you present when death came to Jacob and he told his sons "Who shall you serve after I am gone?", they said "Your god, and the god of your fathers Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac; One god and to Him we submit."

2136 Say "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."

I see this One god and to Him we submit as the main objective that came through from the various messages.

2137 So, if they believe exactly as you have believed, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then they are in opposition and God will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.

Then consider all the confusion in the various intrepetations/roots/views of small small issues in the quran all over the "muslim" world. So, I think it's more sincere to focus on the message of things - what God wants to tell us. I see that the objective of a message is to tell you something.

Then we see in a few places saying things meaning like "whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." (262, 569, 6511) So if we want to stick to the objective - we should stick God Alone, not quran alone. Many things I don't understand yet in of the interprations of many verses or many verses seem as though as they aren't even talking to us. BUT I'm sure there's God! So I like to tell/talk/praise/thank/ask/etc to Him directly!!! He's the True Nature. He's Omnipresent, Omnipotent, all knowing, all hearing.

Best Sincere Regards!

Peace to you Zidane,

BUT I'm sure there's God! So I like to tell/talk/praise/thank/ask/etc to Him directly!!! He's the True Nature. He's Omnipresent, Omnipotent, all knowing, all hearing.

Thank you. It seems that what we find is that it is safest to believe in God Alone.

AGREED!

stephanie01

simply put, because it doesnt say "THIS is the scripture", it says "THAT is the scripture"
Thalik means that.
I have only seen one translation which has the correct meaning.

Peace Globalgrey,

Was there a point to saying that versus this other than stating the correct word which I am not negating as important?

stephanie01

Peace Ayman

What about all the stories about Uthman and his destruction of 'false Qurans'. We know for a fact the text has been altered with speech marks, and what about the removal of 2 verses by some?

For a group like ours, the compilation of the Quran is fundamental. Sure the Quran takes us upto T=O (as in the start) and guarantees protection, but there are still issues out there since the death of Muhammad.

Roshan

Peace Roshan,

I agree that the compilation of what we read today is important to understand.

stephanie01

Stories, physical evidence beats stories any day.

I agree stories should not be used as facts but I have not found the physical evidence.

wildguest1956

The Prophet was alive while the passages were compiled into a book
OR
The book was compiled after the prophet's death

The Prophet was alive while the passages were compiled into a book, I think

Either way how could it be that the 2nd surah opens with "This scripture ...", or "This book..."
If the prophet is speaking the word of God at the time there was no book. Would not the words be "This directive ...", "These words..." or something of that nature since at the time of revelation there was no book.

You may wish to have a look at QXP's rendition of the verse .
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/default.htm#002_002

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Stephanie, all,

I agree that the message of The God is "God alone" and not "qur'aan alone". The qur'aan itself points towards that fact, that the signs/aayaat are not just in the qur'aan but in the horizons and within us, and the truth, including the qur'aan itself, can be confirmed using all those signs.

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

As far as the scriptures are concerned, we are asked to TRUST/BELIEVE in them, and not KNOW them, and use the signs within ourselves and the horizons to confirm the truth of their message, using our mind, logic, and reason, instead of trusting/believing in them blindly, and then to act upon that message

4136 O you who trust/believe; trust/believe in God and His messenger, and the Scripture which was sent down to His messenger, and the Scripture that was sent before. And whoever rejects God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers, and the Last Day; then he has strayed a far straying.

The addressees are "O you who trust/believe", not "O you who know".

692 And this is a Scripture which We have sent down, blessed, authenticating what is present with him, and that you may warn the capital of the towns and those around it. And those who trust/believe in the Hereafter trust/believe in it, and they are dedicated to their connection.

2121 Those to whom We have given the Scripture, they recite it as it truthfully deserves to be recited; they trust/believe in it. As for those who disbelieve in it, they are the losers.

3199 And from the people of the Scripture are those who trust/believe in God and what was sent down to you and what was sent down to them; fearful to God, they do not purchase with God's revelations a cheap price. These will have their reward with their Lord. God is quick in reckoning.

2946 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and say "We trust/believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we submit."

37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God. Those who are well founded in knowledge, they say "We trust/believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.

1644 With clarity and the Psalms. And We sent down to you the Reminder to make clear to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think.

Also see

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who trusts/believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the Connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

The qur'aan being a compiled and written book from the onset of revelation, does not contradict with quotation of facts in it which occurred at a later date, after the onset of revelation. Following is an explanation of this

A book could consist of a few written pages bound together, and then we can keep expanding the same book by adding more written pages to it, and the expanded book would still be a book. For example the current Bible consists of many "books" that were added to it at different periods, but the end result is still a book, and the Bible was still a book before other "books" were added to it !

The Qur'aan was a written book even when it comprised of only a few written pages kept together containing a few verses in the beginning. Subsequently, as more verses were revealed, those verses were written on additional pages and added to the starting book, and thus the book grew in size until all the verses were revealed, at which time it was still a book. Thus it was a compiled and written book at all those stages !

Zidane

bravo Very interesting, brother Tanveer!

stephanie01