The ?God Alone? Challenge
-
Peace SHM,
If you're going to be honest, why not link to the thread where it was clearly spelled out for you that your claims of "facts" were, in fact, unevidenced. That is a forum rules violation designed to maintain the integrity of debates.
I'm not sure why you think yourself to be above the forum rules but you are not. And this harping on you getting banned for speaking out against PM/FM is tiresome. Many people have come and gone who speak their minds. Nothing wrong with it as long as the forum rules are followed. It's really simple man.
It seems to me like you want to be a victim and you want some sympathy. I'm sure there are other forums for that. This one is for the discussion of islam via the qur'an.
May peace be upon you,
Tayif you read the thread, you will understand my point. i not saying im "above" the rules. but if the rules only applies to me when i mention somethings about PM and not other people who make similar comments, then what does that say? Why dont you post the link where i point out individuals who did the same but never prosecuted like me?
May peace be upon you Tay. If you think i should be ban, then please take part in the survey. how can i deny statistical information.
-
Wow, lots of politics here I see.
Anyways about those who say rituals are wrong, then its best to understand it your own way. Nothing is really wrong unless its harmful to you or others. If a guy wants to pray running around in the rain, hey, if it makes him get closer to his creator, then let him do it.
I don't know who you mean by progressive Muslims. The ones I know of them are the ones who think sex is halal if its between consenting adults and eating pork is OK and so on. You know, liberals. they used to have a website called Muslimswakeup. They say they went down after a few good years.
-
peace
1.Can GOD reveal other religious guidance beside what is mention in the Quran?
God's guidance can be found through reason...so "yes" would be the answer. God's guidance is present everywhere.
2.If a proven messenger of GOD after Muhammad delivers a divine explanation for one verse in the Quran that was supported by evidence, would you follow that explanation even thought that explanation is not mention in the Quran?
Well, if what that "messenger" says is true, then why we must agree with it. If it's not true, then we must reject it.
3.Can there be another messenger after Muhammad who is not a prophet but explains previous scripture and message from GOD?
well, I don't know why he would have any more knowledge than us about the Quran. But again, it doesn't matter who is a messenger and who isn't, we just listen to what they have to say and if its true, we follow it. It really is that simple.
6.Does following the authority of a messenger of GOD with regards to the message delivered to him equals shirk?
Well, if I follow someone's teachings, regardless of whether they are false or not, I must recognize his authority. You know, since it's HIS teachings, he decides what his teachings really are.
But if we are following the truth, then the only authority is truth itself.
We don't follow people, we follow the truth. People are imperfect, they make mistakes, so we can't blindly accept everything someone says. When we read or listen to what someone has to say, we take the good and leave out the bad.7.If Muhammad actually did say that salat means rituals prayer, and zakat is charity, would you follow him?
If he could prove to me that ritual prayer actually has benefits and I would be worse off if I didn't do it, then yes I would follow him. If he said that we should give charity, in this case he need not explain to me the benefits because I already know that charity is a good thing, so I would follow him on that too.
8.Do you make distinction about GOD messengers by thinking some are right while others were wrong?
I believe everyone's a "messenger" when they speak the truth. The truth is from god, so when you speak it, you are channeling god's words through you, you're acting as god's agent.
None of us are correct all the time, so none of the messengers you're talking about were perfect. They were all right and wrong.10.Is GOD the only source of the religion of submission or the Quran?
I don't give a **** about religion. I do, however, care about morality, and morality is reached through truth and reason. Reality is the source of morality.
peace -
I don't know who you mean by progressive Muslims. The ones I know of them are the ones who think sex is halal if its between consenting adults and eating pork is OK and so on. You know, liberals. they used to have a website called Muslimswakeup. They say they went down after a few good years.
By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
-
By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
I don't think anyone here does this. You seem to force your own view on people so you can make your "arguments." I am perfectly fine with praying the traditional way. Brother Alen is one person I know who actually does this, yet doesn't follow the hadith has guidance or law. "PM" simply states the traditional way is not the only way.
-
By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
I don't see your point. If someone says salaat is not physical and its spiritual like thinking about God or doing some form of zikr or doing charity works that connects you do God and bowing and prostrating is of a more spiritual and less physical function, it does not mean he does not believe in salaat. Its just he has a different understanding of salaat.
There are many muslims whp pray everyday in the mosque all 5 prayers and even more yet you can't trust him with a dime. The Ayatollahs in Iran and the Islamist in Sudan and the War lords in Afghanistan all do these prayers. Many would pray the fajr in the mosque and recite Quran all night long yet they have shown us nothing but corruption, crimes and hypocrysy. So whats your point?
Now it is difficult to adjust to a situation where people understand and do things differently. Especially in Islam where we are used to Muslims all prtaying and fasting and doing haj almost identically and at the same time and often at the same place, row by row and column by column. Yet it has not changed many of us as humans for the better. Osama Bin Laden does all these things and more, yet look at him.
There is more to Islam than physical rituals.
I don't know what is it some people have about you, but at the same time I am not sure what is it thats bothering you if people have different interpretation.
The bottom line to me is this.
If God wanted to, He couldn't have made sure the Koran answers all these question tooth and nail. He could have made sure there can only be one interpretation for these rituals. But the Koran did not. So maybe there is a wisdom in all this.
Look at the verses in the Koran about the kuffar and judgement day. About the believers and paradise. About the good deeds and bad. About the prophets and their mission and propagation. So much verses and Surahs talk about these things. About our deeds being recorded and we will all face our creator and answer to our deeds. They will be those who will be happy and pleased and those who would regret their deeds they left behind them. It leaves no room for assumptions. So many verses talk about God Himself, His infinite Wisdom, His mercy, His bountiness and favors on mankind. His creation and His might and His sole role in the universe and how everything is under His command and domain. We may not know what hell and paradise really is. But we do know we will be judged and we will be facing an after life and we are here for a purpose. Thats the beef.
-
If God wanted to, He couldn't have made sure the Koran answers all these question tooth and nail. He could have made sure there can only be one interpretation for these rituals. But the Koran did not. So maybe there is a wisdom in all this.
that is my point. there is a great abuse of the "quran alone" term and the Quran claims of it being fully detailed. people selectively apply there intrepreatation of these two concept then accuse others of not following the Koran alone.
I not against different level of understanding. I remember there was an individual within this forum who believe everything in the Quran was symbolic (from messenger to angels etc). Now to me that was very extreme, but it doesnt mean his understand doesn't bring some benefits. So im not against different level of understanding. But to subjectively apply the criteria of "quran alone" is wrong. SO made made this challenge.
-
that is my point. there is a great abuse of the "quran alone" term and the Quran claims of it being fully detailed. people selectively apply there intrepreatation of these two concept then accuse others of not following the Koran alone.
I not against different level of understanding. I remember there was an individual within this forum who believe everything in the Quran was symbolic (from messenger to angels etc). Now to me that was very extreme, but it doesnt mean his understand doesn't bring some benefits. So im not against different level of understanding. But to subjectively apply the criteria of "quran alone" is wrong. SO made made this challenge.
Aha, I see your point. OK, by the way you have a tendency to assume people know what you mean. Not everyone here has been in this forum for years. Now as far as those who say only Koran should be followed and anyone else is therefore disobeying the command of the Koran by not relying on the Koran alone. Or that relying on anything else means the Koran is not fully detailed and therefore the person is disobeying God, I think the best approach is ask him about specific answers. Of course he is not going to be able to answer them from the Koran.
You know I have been through this. There is a psychological need to find answers. There is still some shame to say that there are no specifics. Question about Qibla and haj and salaat are very sensitive. And sometimes we think that our answers to those is going to shape our legitimacy. Its the 1st things people ask. How do you know how to pray? This can create a defensive complex. Then we insist that the Koran explains it, when we really know it doesn't. Or we say we got it from the prophet and passed along by his companions. Then the Koranist will ask so why does the Koran mention wadu but not the 5 salaat. Or why the fajr or Isha is mentioned but not the rest. We could have also go the wadu passed down, so why is it mentioned. Why safa marwa is mentioned but not stoning the devil. Why qibla but no azhan. It goes in circles.
There is no way out of it. There are no answers to these questions. Why should we have to find the answers when the Koran didn't? Are we to be more concerned about these things than the Koran? You see once you take it upon yourself to answer these questions you are going to get sandwiched. You will never be consistent. The Koranist can never say they have the answers and the traditionalist are never going to be able to refute the Koran's authority. Thats the beef.
-
By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
In that case you and me are in agreement .... but you are going the wrong way about it, take a break.
-
There is no way out of it. There are no answers to these questions. Why should we have to find the answers when the Koran didn't? Are we to be more concerned about these things than the Koran? You see once you take it upon yourself to answer these questions you are going to get sandwiched. You will never be consistent. The Koranist can never say they have the answers and the traditionalist are never going to be able to refute the Koran's authority. Thats the beef.
Bigmo, you are truly a smart person in my eyes. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thats why (to me) this "debate" and "re-definition" on salat is some what pointless. I realize what you have said about four to five years ago when i participate in this forum (and then decided to stop debating it). And to this date, no one has brought any tangible concert evidence on what salat is or is not. To me it just proves two things;
(1) "You will never be consistent." Everyone is using external source, from article, translations, science, life, opinions etc etc etc to understand the Quran. The difference is it some admit it, will other don't. Sunnis admit is BUT try to justify it. Those who claim "quran alone" simply don't admit it in my view.
(2) It proves the traditional and universal understanding of salat is not wrong. if so, GOD within the koran would have blatantly rejected that understanding and interpretations of it and not beat around the bush (2189). But it doesn't.
would you agree?
-
By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
In that case you and me are in agreement .... but you are going the wrong way about it, take a break.
that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What we need to ask yourself is;
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread
-
that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What we need to ask yourself is;
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread
People who constantly study and seek to gain a better understanding (if you want to call them PM, ok) progress and are seeking to become better muslims. Maybe you're confused? No one that I know of here says that, for example, x salat method is the only way and all others are wrong. It's ironic because the people who follow hadith are the ones guilty of this.
-
the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM
Does it matter what the majority agrees with? It's what we ourselves find. We don't find it worth our time, we leave. We want it out of cyberspace, we make our case...so far the case for it's dissolution or the bad it brings, is quite shaky being opinion based with no evidence besides "anonymous people in the majority (4-5 people on a forum of 2000 something members) agree to some questions thus they must automatically have the same outlook as I do".
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What you defined as a progressive movement By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression.
simply chucking away stuff rather than on the basis of right or wrong is hardly the norm amongst members here. Thus this is a misleading question. Most no one here will tell you "we do this because it's oh so cool to thumb our nose at convention". They will give you reasoning as to why they think it right or wrong. Thus if you want to know about this "movement", you have to go look somewhere else.
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
No forum is meant to solve or create problems. It's meant as a place for discussion. That is all. Once again, it depends on individuals and what they take from it, whether it is a book, the tv or a forum.
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.
Once again, find this "progressive Muslim movement" as defined above somewhere else. Better yet, ask people this, exactly how you defined this movement. Let's see who is going to say "yeah we did it 'cause tradition is so uncool".
-
that has been my case since the start. here is the problem, because i can be harsh, people think im "rankling" or somthing. that is not the case. and if you read the result of my survey, the majority agree with my view about consensus, progression and clarity on issues of islam with PM. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15692.0;attach=1275
what i want is information. i simply want to know if the progressive muslim movement is actually PROGRESSING? its that simply.
What we need to ask yourself is;
Is this forum actually solving problems or creating them?
Is the progressive Muslim movement actually solving problems or creating them? I think these are simply questions that can be answer.however, when i ask that question, or make such statement, i am accuse of attention seeking or i need "to take a break". you know what i will post that in a thread
Thats a good question, and I myself asked that question. Is the movement to rely on the Koran as a sole source of inspiration for Muslims benefiting the reformist programe or hurting it. But once again it goes down to these rituals. This is because Sunni Islam's strongest argument is still about these rituals. Hence the constant need to find "the" answer. As you said, some of these answers are really desperate attempts and may sound like an attempt to escape the issues by changing the meaning of the salaat. But I disagree with you that they need outside sources to do that. The salaat HAS different meanings in the Koran and there is no need for anyone to look for outside sources to show that. They may use outside sources to do that, but they don't need those sources. Someone is trying to to convince someone else and so he relies on an outside source. The fact that he relies on any outside source is an indication that his answer can not be detected by the Koran explicitly. Traditionalist are afraid of this trend more than you think. This is because they fear the authority of the Koran. Once the masses get into it, there will be all kinds of opinions about these things. They fear that. The Koran is not a secretive book and we all have the same verses, so the same issues we are dealing with will be dealt by all kinds of people. Right now those debating these issues are a minority but growing. Its the authority the Koran has on the Muslim masses that is causing this fear of the Koranist.
I don't think you need an answer for these questions. There is no need to feel ashamed. Why should we answer what the Koran did not answer. If you want to pray 2 times a day and face the whatever, then you can do that from the Koran. You can also pray 3 or even 5. Even if they say where did you get the 5, you can also ask them how do you know its 2 or 3. Just because 2 are mentioned does not mean there is only 2. Someone can say the Koran uses tasbih for Salat and use these verses
Bear patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night glorify Him, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which God shall give you. (20114)
Glory be to God whenever you reach evening and whenever you rise in the morning. All praise is for Him in the heavens and on Earth, in the late afternoon, and whenever you reach the noon. (3017-1
Everyone can find his explanation in the Koran but he can not refute someone else.
Those who barge in and accuse others of disobeying the koran and attacking others as bringing innovation and abandoning the Quran, practicing Zoroastrianism and shirk and following the pagan rituals are the same people when asked a couple of question have no answer themselves.
And those who barge in and accuse others of abandoning the Sunnah and the consensus of the Ummah and following vain desires and bringing in divisions and innovation into the religion and are deviant apostates when asked to provide evidence for any of this from the Koran are silent.
There is no way out of it. One side can not provide the answers and thus have no business accusing others, and the other side can not refute the authority of the Koran and thus have no business accusing others.
-
Those who barge in and accuse others of disobeying the koran and attacking others as bringing innovation and abandoning the Quran, practicing Zoroastrianism and shirk and following the pagan rituals are the same people when asked a couple of question have no answer themselves.
And those who barge in and accuse others of abandoning the Sunnah and the consensus of the Ummah and following vain desires and bringing in divisions and innovation into the religion and are deviant apostates when asked to provide evidence for any of this from the Koran are silent.
There is no way out of it. One side can not provide the answers and thus have no business accusing others, and the other side can not refute the authority of the Koran and thus have no business accusing others.
Bigmo for president!
wise words indeed. i think you have a good understanding
-
No forum is meant to solve or create problems. It's meant as a place for discussion. That is all. Once again, it depends on individuals and what they take from it, whether it is a book, the tv or a forum.
Savage_carrot, i have alot of repsect for you but i have to disagree with this statement. forum are meant to help solve problems, educated, and answer questions THROUGH discussion. Are so how suggesting that free-minds.org has no purpose but just to have discussions? That doesn't sound logical especially base on the selective articles it presents on it main page.
Once again, find this "progressive Muslim movement" as defined above somewhere else. Better yet, ask people this, exactly how you defined this movement. Let's see who is going to say "yeah we did it 'cause tradition is so uncool".
please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
-
please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
I believe sister Nadia specifically asking about your definition of PM. You stated "By Progressive Muslim i mean a movement to redefine islam. Thoes who say no ritual salat and only abandon traditional views SIMPLY because it is traditional (not if it is right or wrong). Such basis judgment is contra productive to progression." As far as I know, this is simply not true. I addressed this earlier in the thread and you did not respond.
As for your questions above, people who believe in the quran alone and wish to better their understanding of the quran and reality through study believe they are solving problems. This is purely a subjective question; I don't see how it would get us anywhere? Obviously we think we're "solving problems," bettering ourselves and increasing our knowledge. Whereas some others might not. I hope this answers your question.
-
Savage_carrot, i have alot of repsect for you but i have to disagree with this statement. forum are meant to help solve problems, educated, and answer questions THROUGH discussion. Are so how suggesting that free-minds.org has no purpose but just to have discussions? That doesn't sound logical especially base on the selective articles it presents on it main page.
Forums are meant for discussion (arguments in reality). This is a fact. You can have an agony aunt forum "meant for solving problems" but that doesn't mean the problem is/will/was ever meant to be solved. Or if it's a problem at all. In conceptual/theoretical discussions, there might not be any clear right/wrong/correct/incorrect answer and that's the way it is. A forum is a place for discussion between lots of people, there are no self appointed, or "officially appointed" Mr./Ms. Fixits (guaranteed to solve all your problems without a fee) here. THROUGH discussion...one takes what they do and it is what it is. It's very simple. Another thing, you need to get your definations straight. FM/PM/Forums/Websites etc.
please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.
-
sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.
why dont you conduct a survey then?
19.org purpose is to promote the 19 sign. Yuksel should do a survey as well?
what? do you think im care only about PM, EVERYONE should determine the performance of their actions and not have wish thinking.