The ?God Alone? Challenge
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Savage_carrot, i have alot of repsect for you but i have to disagree with this statement. forum are meant to help solve problems, educated, and answer questions THROUGH discussion. Are so how suggesting that free-minds.org has no purpose but just to have discussions? That doesn't sound logical especially base on the selective articles it presents on it main page.
Forums are meant for discussion (arguments in reality). This is a fact. You can have an agony aunt forum "meant for solving problems" but that doesn't mean the problem is/will/was ever meant to be solved. Or if it's a problem at all. In conceptual/theoretical discussions, there might not be any clear right/wrong/correct/incorrect answer and that's the way it is. A forum is a place for discussion between lots of people, there are no self appointed, or "officially appointed" Mr./Ms. Fixits (guaranteed to solve all your problems without a fee) here. THROUGH discussion...one takes what they do and it is what it is. It's very simple. Another thing, you need to get your definations straight. FM/PM/Forums/Websites etc.
please dont become sensitive like Wakas when i discuss PM. PM it is an organization. it a movement. free-mind.org is the project of proressivemuslims.org which as an agenda to http//progressivemuslims.org/organization.htm. Im not the one creating these labels. Some within the movement indeed reject anything traditional, but not all. Now im not against the movement or the organization. All im saying is, can you determine if the project, free-minds.org is solving problems or creating them? confusing issues or clarifying them? these questions carry no insult or attack, they are indeed valid questions. Dont you ask question like this before you participate or help organization or movements?
sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.
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sigh we're back to it again. How many more times... If YOU think it's helped you great, if YOU don't know, asking people if it's helped them and making up your mind based on that is not really the way to go about it, because one doesn't have the whole picture. If you think it hasn't helped you, then thats fine too...it might've helped even ONE person out there. What about 19.org and it's forums? Have you any research on that? I'd like to read it, for research purposes.
why dont you conduct a survey then?
19.org purpose is to promote the 19 sign. Yuksel should do a survey as well?
what? do you think im care only about PM, EVERYONE should determine the performance of their actions and not have wish thinking.
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why dont you conduct a survey then?
Explained countless times in my posts.
19.org purpose is to promote the 19 sign. Yuksel should do a survey as well?
I see, so Yuksel should do a survey on the 19.org forums, hence Layth should be the one conducting the survey here. I'm glad it's all finally settled then.
what? do you think im care only about PM, EVERYONE should determine the performance of their actions and not have wish thinking.
However afaik, uptil now PM (and all associated stuff with it inclusive of it's forum) has borne the sole brunt of this zest born out of quality assurance. I hope to forthwith see more .orgs (and all associated stuff with it inclusive of it's forums) being similarly dealt with and the results posted for the benefit of all, with statistics, graphs and pretty pictures.
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Very nicely you have described the mentality of FM/PM.
As you seem to care much about grammar and spellings, I am sorry; in both I am weak.
Based on the former quote, I would add comprehension and logic to the latter list and would suggest posting constructively from now on, instead of uselessly generalising and attacking/accusing.
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savage_carrot,
you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.
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Peace, can anyone tell me why you all like to use the expression 'islamic reform'?
It seems that to reform means to change something with positive expectations. Beliefs of people are not something we can reform. Tariq Ramadan considers himself as a reformer too but yet relies on hadith. All his efforts as a so called reformer hasn't yielded anything. We've seen a rise in intolerance and islamophobia.
There is nothing to reform in islam. The quran is complete. people need to be reformed, but only themselves can do that, and only then God guides them. So, finally what is there to reform? -
Peace, can anyone tell me why you all like to use the expression 'islamic reform'?
It seems that to reform means to change something with positive expectations. Beliefs of people are not something we can reform. Tariq Ramadan considers himself as a reformer too but yet relies on hadith. All his efforts as a so called reformer hasn't yielded anything. We've seen a rise in intolerance and islamophobia.
There is nothing to reform in islam. The quran is complete. people need to be reformed, but only themselves can do that, and only then God guides them. So, finally what is there to reform?Tariq Ramadan is a scam.
As far as progressive Muslims, i am not sure what it is. If its a progressive movement to progress islam by returning Muslims to accept only Koran, then it can not do more than this. If its about interpretating the Koran in a progressive matter, it will only achieve what it can once people accept the Koran as the sole or pivotal authority in Islam. This is because you can not control the interpretation of the Koran. Persuading people to return to the Koran is a very broad based objective. This is because very Muslim on Eartrh accepts its authority and is aware of what it is. Even if he is not aware of what it actually says. Everyone will interpret it in different ways, not much different from here.
You can't control the Koran and thus won't be able to control its interpretation. There are no madhabs and Isnad methodologies and different variations to thwart the average person from interpreting the Koranic verses. Everyone has access to it. No need to get educated through fiqh and no need to be certified and you don't need to go to some college or even library.
But thats whats great about the Koran. Its nobody's property and for everybody.
As far as organizations, well they can contribute by awareness and providing material and forums for debate. But no human can control a movement as broad and as universal as the Koran following movement.
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savage_carrot,
you cannot prove that FM is clarifying issues about Islam. and this is okay with you? Meaning, if it is doing damage you dont care? That seem illogical to me.
Who is it doing damage to exactly? Can they not come to the forum, if it is so damaging? This forum helps me a lot, honestly. It is all subjective. If FM damages/hurts/bothers people, no one is forcing them to come here.
I really don't understand what the problem/question is?
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Who is it doing damage to exactly? Can they not come to the forum, if it is so damaging? This forum helps me a lot, honestly. It is all subjective. If FM damages/hurts/bothers people, no one is forcing them to come here.
I really don't understand what the problem/question is?
Maybe its politics and question about leaderships and personality clashes. But I think SHM may know things we don't.
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Savage-Carrot
Quote from Rajah
Very nicely you have described the mentality of FM/PM.Quote from Rajah
As you seem to care much about grammar and spellings, I am sorry; in both I am weak.Based on the former quote, I would add comprehension and logic to the latter list and would suggest posting constructively from now on, instead of uselessly generalising and attacking/accusing.
Thank you for your advice.
But the fact is you said "Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find"
This statement of yours gives a view of an autocratic personaility and I think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as you have, so I just expressed it IT is nothing Personal.SHM has valid points.
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But the fact is you said "Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find"
This statement of yours gives a view of an autocratic personaility and I think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as you have, so I just expressed it IT is nothing Personal.The "statement gives the the view of an autocratic personality"?
You think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as I so that makes them "autocratic personalities"?
Autocratic
An autocracy is a form of government in which the political power is held by a single self appointed ruler, usually a dictator.
1 of, relating to, or being an autocracy absolute <an autocratic government>
2 characteristic of or resembling an autocrat despotic <an autocratic ruler>Please explain how that statement relates to an "autocratic personality". Bear in mind, the we was definitely not referring to the admin/mods, as is obvious.
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The "statement gives the the view of an autocratic personality"?
You think many members of PM/FM have the same point of view as I so that makes them "autocratic personalities"?
Autocratic
An autocracy is a form of government in which the political power is held by a single self appointed ruler, usually a dictator.
1 of, relating to, or being an autocracy absolute <an autocratic government>
2 characteristic of or resembling an autocrat despotic <an autocratic ruler>Please explain how that statement relates to an "autocratic personality". Bear in mind, the we was definitely not referring to the admin/mods, as is obvious.
Please explain first in easy english what you are asking me to explain? I am not able to understand specially the one in red.
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Please explain first in easy english what you are asking me to explain? I am not able to understand specially the one in red.
Please explain how does that statement relate to an "autocratic personality"? Forget anything else, just explain the relation of that statement with autocratic.
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Savage-Carrot
Please explain how does that statement relate to an "autocratic personality"? Forget anything else, just explain the relation of that statement with autocratic.
Your statement
"Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find.Democracy Where it does matter what the majority agrees with
Autocracy where it doesnot matter what the majority agrees with
I can't make it simpler.
Have a nice day.
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Savage-Carrot
Your statement
"Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find.Democracy Where it does matter what the majority agrees with
Autocracy where it doesnot matter what the majority agrees with
I can't make it simpler.
Have a nice day.
Umm, I think she means it's what everyone finds individually, since we're all at different levels. This is actually a higher plateau of "democracy" and freedom. It does not exclude people and force them to follow pointless traditions in order to be a "Muslim." Everyone is happy with what they have on their own level, while still following the quran. Perhaps you should check who has the real "autocratic personality"
Peace
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Thanks bro Navid for the succint explanation. I think it's pointless to go further with this due to obvious reasons .
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Umm, I think she means it's what everyone finds individually, since we're all at different levels. This is actually a higher plateau of "democracy" and freedom. It does not exclude people and force them to follow pointless traditions in order to be a "Muslim." Everyone is happy with what they have on their own level, while still following the quran. Perhaps you should check who has the real "autocratic personality"
Peace
Well; you are also un-official speaker for Savage-Carrot, I did not knew about that. You still have several un answered questions in different threads, where I called you to respond but you did not and now i know the reason
Savage-carrot
Few months back when some one asked me is there any Muslim Forum where you can discuss anything you want without any fear? without banning or getting abused? I referred them to Free-minds, but it was before Ahmed Baghat and myself( for a week or so) getting a ban on the forum. I think most of the moderators and Administrators of this site are sensitive on many issues and I am trying to avoid direct involvement with them debating so may be I would not be banned in future.
When I joined the forum may be 2005 the traffic was slow with only few active members, but it was contribution of each and every member of the forum including Me, Ahmed or any one who got banned to get a fame it desrves.Remember Islam is Unity, If it would have been personal, no pain would have been taken by these messangers to teach us. So you are telling us that Majority does not matter is a cry far away.
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Well; you are also un-official speaker for Savage-Carrot, I did not knew about that. You still have several un answered questions in different threads, where I called you to respond but you did not and now i know the reason
I am trying to avoid direct involvement with them debating so may be I would not be banned in future.
But "indirect involvement" by insulting their names is fine, no matter.
When I joined the forum may be 2005 the traffic was slow with only few active members, but it was contribution of each and every member of the forum including Me, Ahmed or any one who got banned to get a fame it desrves.
Maybe we should have a Wall of Fame nopeRemember Islam is Unity, If it would have been personal, no pain would have been taken by these messangers to teach us. So you are telling us that Majority does not matter is a cry far away.
If even after pointing it out, one still doesn't get it...I do feel like crying far away but I'll restrain myself.