Problems with the Reformist Translation

Samia

Peace all

Is there any chance that those who are rightfully theirs could mean the girlfriend or boy friend??

Or the person they have fallen in love with??

Or the person who they are planning to marry??

Partners?

Bigmo

Partners?

I wonder if it means previous partners before Islam. Or women who you have married without the wedding formalities yet done like dowries and a marriage house. What we call in Arabic "katb al kitab". Usually people do this so they can go out with them before they actually make the ceremony and pay the dowries and make the financial arrangements. It could mean slaves also.

I don't think the only issue with hadiths is just it tainted the prophet. Many hadiths praises his character also. The issue is many hadiths contradict the Koran and was compiled centuries after him and taints the Koran also. Plus the fact all sects have their own hadiths. The whole Isnad methodology is a highly subjective method. No two collectors agreed with each other. Plus many hadiths stress obedience to the rulers who in turn over saw these hadith collection efforts while their legacy was both bloody and corrupt. Than the issue of these witnessers like Abu Huraira and Ibn Abbas and Ibn Malik and Ibn Umar. All knew the prophet for a short time and some were only young teens during the prophet's time yet narrate hadiths like leaves falling from a tree. Also the conflict of interest since Sunni sectarians collected hadiths and authenticated and also compiled the biographies of the narrators and also established rulings and then made them binding. Its was not led by an independent source. Not forgetting that there are no multiple sources to back those hadiths and most of them are single narrations. And also the political rivalry and division that occured right after the prophet's death and the climbing of some of the prophet's ardent enemies to power like the Umayyids and Abbasids.

Raj-ah

Bigmo

It could mean slaves also.

That is what I want to discuss, but lets wait for Edips input.
I am going to read the attachment you mentioned.

nimnimak

Peace all

Is there any chance that those who are rightfully theirs could mean the girlfriend or boy friend??

Or the person they have fallen in love with??

Or the person who they are planning to marry??

My girl friend or her boy friend can be husband or wife of another therefore they are not rightfully.
theirs.
We can fall in love with a person, who does not love's us or he or she may be also love of another person, therefore cannot be rightfully ours.
Now if I have a sexual relation ship with a girl do whom I am planning to marriage, if the marriage doesnot carry on their will be lots of social problems, may be not in Europe and USA but rest of the world.

Partners

The most strange definition i ever heared, can the quoter describe it further.

Samia

The most strange definition i ever heared, can the quoter describe it further.

Stranger than boyfriend and girlfriend, or even fiancee?

I personally do not agree with any of the explanations mentioned on this page, including mine, but I just wanted to mention to the poster that a partner more rightfully belongs to his/her partner than does a fiancee or a girlfriend/boyfriend. People here take partners for more than a reason

To avoid expensive wedding expenditure
To avoid going to the church, which they do not believe in anymore
Because they believe it's not the government business to register them as husband/wife
Other reasons I am not aware of

However, apart from these ceremonies, they live like any other married couple and the children are registered under the father's name. The government also recognize this kind of relationship when calculating any financial dues or taxes.

Edip_Yuksel

Here is our translation of verse 43, 24 and my argument for them

43 If you fear that you cannot be just to fatherless orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from the women, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair then only one, or whom you already have contract with. So that you do not commit injustice and suffer hardship.*

424 The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.*

NOTE

004003 Polygamy is allowed only to provide psychological, social and economic support for widows with orphans (See 4127). Muhammad's practice of polygamy must have been in accordance with the condition to serve an important social service. Sure, physical attraction of widows might be one of the factors for marriage and there is nothing wrong with that. Those who could afford practicing polygamy, mentally and financially, should try hard to treat them equally, though 4129 expresses the practical impossibly of attaining that ideal. Additionally, the consent of the first wife is necessary; otherwise, she can always seek divorce. It is clear that polygamy is not an ideal form of marriage and an unusual practice allowed for difficult times, such as a dramatic reduction in the male population during wartime. The age gap between marrying men and women creates a surplus of women who will never be able to find a monogamous partner. By a strict prohibition on polygamy, millions of young women are deprived from having a legitimate relationship with men. The only hope for millions of young girls is to get married with already divorced men, perhaps with kids, or to have a relationship born out of promiscuous sexual practices. The Western world does not prohibit polygamy since many males have sexual relationships with more than one woman at the same time. The only thing that modern societies do is deprive those women from the protection of law; they are there to be used, disposed of and recycled by men! The hypocrisy in the modern attitude becomes clear when homosexuality is defended on the pretext of "consenting adults," but the same standards are not afforded to the polygamists. The conditional permission for polygamy is for the psychological and financial protection of children and their widow mothers, in cases of war or natural disaster.

Polygamy, according to the Old Testament, started with the seventh generation after Cain and continued as a common practice in the patriarchal age together with having concubines (Genesis 419; 62; 161-4; 2221-24; 288-9; 2923-30, etc.). However, the Old Testament also disapproves of polygamy (Deuteronomy 1717).
The Old Testament contains numerous exaggerated stories. One is about the number of Solomon's wives. The roundness of the numbers of wives and concubines and their total, the three numbers being perfectly round, indicate an intentional exaggeration. "And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines and his wives turned away his heart? (1 Kings 113). It is highly plausible that the word "hundred" was inserted in the text by later scribes to damage the reputation of Solomon for some political agenda. The following verses depict Solomon as an evil person and idolater. The Quran neither accuses Solomon of indulging in a hedonistic sexual life nor of associating partners with God. Ironically, modern Christians are now bashing Solomon for not sticking to monogamy. To be politically correct, modern Christians do not hesitate to condemn the common practice of polygamy among Jews and their prophets.

Contrary to the Quran, which exhorts muslims to help widows, the misogynistic Rabbinical teachings inserted into the Old Testament put them in the category of harlots, and finds them unworthy of marriage by the privileged class priests (Leviticus 2114).

The expression Ma malakat aymanukum has been translated by most translations as "whom your right hands posses" or "captives" or "concubines." We translated this and similar expressions found in 43,24,25,36; 1671; 236; 2431,33,58; 3028; 3350,52,55; and 7030, as "those with whom you have contractual rights." These were the wives of the enemy combatants who were persecuted because they acknowledged the message of Islam and sought asylum at the Muslim community (6010). Since they did not get through a normal divorce process, an exceptional contract allows them to marry muslims as free women. Marrying them could create some social, economic and personal complications for the husband. They have nothing to do with IBaD (slaves), as sectarian translations and commentaries state. As we will learn, the Quran categorically rejects slavery and considers it to be the greatest sin (See 379; 425,92; 589; 867; 2432-33; 583; 9013; 2286; 1239-42; 7924). The practice of slavery was justified and resurrected to a certain extent via the influence of Jewish and Christian scholars, as well as fabricated hadith and sharia laws, decades after Muhammad's departure.

It is ironic that Jews who suffered the most from slavery and were saved by God through the leadership of Moses (Exodus 113-14), later justified enslaving other people, including selling one's own daughter, and inserted that practice into their holy books (Exodus 217-8; 2121-22; 26-27; Leviticus 2544-46; Joshua 96-27).

Though Jesus never condoned slavery, St. Paul, the founder of modern Christianity, once asked the masters to treat their slaves nicely (Colossians 322), and asked the slaves to be "submissive to your masters with all fear" (1 Peter 218; Ephesians 65; 1 Timothy 62; Colossians 322; Titus 29) justifying the Marxist maxim, "Religion is the opium of masses." The use of religion by the privileged class to enslave or exploit people is vividly depicted by the South African archbishop Desmond Tutu "When the missionaries came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'let us close our eyes and pray'. When we opened them, we had the Bible, and they had the land."

The word YaMYN means "right hand" or metaphorically "right," "power" or "control." However, its plural form aYMaN is consistently mentioned in the Quran to mean not "right hands" but to mean "oaths" or "promises," implying the mutual nature of the relationship (See 433 589; 912; 1691-94; 2224-225; 3028; 662; 553; 6109). This unique Quranic usage is similar to the semantic difference between the singular and plural forms of the word Ayat (signs) (see 2106).
The expression in question, thus could be translated as "those whom your oaths/contracts have rights over" or "those whom you hold rights through your contracts," or by reading aYMaN (oaths/contracts) as an object rather than a subject, "those who hold/possess your contracts."

The marriage declaration is a mutual partnership between two sexes and is formed by participation of family members. A married woman cannot marry another man without getting divorced from her husband. However, if a woman escapes and joins muslims while her husband stayed behind participating in a war against muslims, she may marry a Muslim man without actually getting divorced from her combatant husband; she will legally be considered a divorcee (6010). Since this contract is different from the normal marriage contract, this special relationship is described in different words. The same is valid for a man whose wife allies with the hostile enemy. See 2431 and 3355. Those who work for another person according to employment contracts are also referred to with the same expression. See 1671; 3028. Also, see 425,36; 236; 2458; 3350; 3352; 7030.

The Quran does not demand those who lived together based on a mutual promise (AYMaN) during the days of ignorance, without a marriage contract, to get divorced. Similarly, it does not want those who married two sisters before accepting islam to be a way of life (423). This tolerance does not encourage living together without marriage. It only does not want to incur further damage to the family structure and does not want to create hurdles for those who wish to live according to the principles of islam.

NOTE for 425

004025 Slavery as an evil practice of Pharaoh and other polytheists is abolished by the Quran (379; 43,25,92; 589; 867; 2432-33; 583; 9013; 2286; 1239-42; 7924). No wonder, this verse emphasizes the equality between men and women, between the free and those who were unjustly enslaved by polytheists. See 6010.
God issues a lighter penalty for formerly slave women who commit adultery because of their past. Their tragic history and experience is considered a mitigating factor. This rule, at the same time, rejects the Sunni and Shiite punishment for adultery (death), since there cannot be half of a capital punishment. See 242.

siki

Dear Brother Edip,

Salam, it is indeed a pleasant surprise to find you here in this forum after a long time. Good , that you have taken some time off your busy schedule .

your above explanation is a good effort , however it is still far from being perfect

424 The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.*

To start with, You have translated Mohsinnats, in 4-24 as , Married women, which in my opinion is wrong. You may like to check the other occurrences of this term.

just to give you a clue, right in the next verse 4-25 it is again being used , and here the meaning of it could be any, but Married.

The conclusion i have reached after a long study of the term mohs7innat is, that it simply conveys expression of a chaste woman.

NOTE for 425

004025 Slavery as an evil practice of Pharaoh and other polytheists is abolished by the Quran (379; 43,25,92; 589; 867; 2432-33; 583; 9013; 2286; 1239-42; 7924). No wonder, this verse emphasizes the equality between men and women, between the free and those who were unjustly enslaved by polytheists. See 6010.
God issues a lighter penalty for formerly slave women who commit adultery because of their past. Their tragic history and experience is considered a mitigating factor. This rule, at the same time, rejects the Sunni and Shiite punishment for adultery (death), since there cannot be half of a capital punishment. See 242.

Above is another contradiction , you have explained MMA as the women whom you have contract with, but are of combatant enemies undivorced Azwajs, but in 4-25 exactly the same expression has been used (MMA) ,but now you are explaining them to be the previously enslaved women ?

peace

siki

unknownuser

Who are these rightfully theirs, because Spouses have been mentioned at the beginning of the verse?

The same persons mentioned in these verses -- no denying there was slavery in 6th century Arabia...

2221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe A SLAVE woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe A man SLAVE who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind That they may celebrate His praise.

492 Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due) If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing SLAVE, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing SLAVE (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing SLAVE be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

Peace

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Brother Edip,

Salam, it is indeed a pleasant surprise to find you here in this forum after a long time. Good , that you have taken some time off your busy schedule .

your above explanation is a good effort , however it is still far from being perfect

Dear Siki

You have two excellent points. Inshallah I will study them and come back here within one or two days.

Peace,
Edip

Samia

Salaam Nun

Putting the word SLAVE in capital in both verses gives the impression that the SAME WORD IN ARABIC is what's used in both verses, which is not true.

Bigmo

The same persons mentioned in these verses -- no denying there was slavery in 6th century Arabia...

2221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe A SLAVE woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe A man SLAVE who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind That they may celebrate His praise.

492 Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due) If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing SLAVE, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing SLAVE (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing SLAVE be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

Peace

But the word for slave used here is not "right hand possess"

Raj-ah

Therefore we are still at ground zero. Any other explanation may be by Arnold Mol, Wakas or Nadeem?? or any one.

AspeRin

this question goes to either edip or layth.(excuse me, i didnt wanted to make a thread about it)
i have a problem.
i have gotten the book recently and in one of the first pages i see the symbol of the flower of life.
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/Flower-of-Life-small.png
what does this has to do in such book.
explanations please?

peace be with you all

Edip_Yuksel

Dear AspeRin

I did not know that it was called Flower of Life, but I just wanted to put a visual design, or a geometrical object. When I came across this one, I liked it, since it was hexagon with 19 circles, resembling the 19x6=114 chapters of the Quran.

As it seems, its intricate yet symmetric design has received attention of those who appreciate mathematics. I personally find no harm in using a geometrical design with such a diverse and rich appeal. I do not necessarily subscribe to the speculations made about the design, but I personally find it visually artistic and structurally-numerically interesting. Please see the information about this design.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_Life

PS After posting this article I learned that a charlatan named Drunvalo Melchizedek is abusing this design for his religious business. I might delete it from the book in future editions.

What do you think, folks?

Peace,
Edip

AspeRin

peace edip

thanks for the quick reply.

i didnt notice it had 19 circles, it is amazing now that i know that. as the number 19 has to do with God, message, life and all the good about signs of God...
the coincidence could make one say all religions that hold this symbol are related(as in coming from the same source, same deity). incorporating islam now because of the number of circles and the fact that number is really important in the quran.
or... why 19 circles then? maybe a sign for those who are related to it, take a look at islam? God knows best.

still i would not advice anyone to use symbolism as i personally oppose to all kinds of symbolism on anything related to islam and beyond. the symbol does look nice, but for me it doesnt belong in that book because of the history of who has used that symbol, and that the book has a full quran content in it, and nothing but quran related material should appear.

peace

Edip_Yuksel

Dear AspeRin

Thank you very much for your reminder.

Peace
Edip

kshad99

Here is our translation of verse 43, 24 and my argument for them

43 If you fear that you cannot be just to fatherless orphans, then marry those whom you see fit from the women, two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair then only one, or whom you already have contract with. So that you do not commit injustice and suffer hardship.*

you have translated "maa malakat aymaanukum" as
whom you already have contract with

Please can you explain it?

Edip_Yuksel

Dear kshad99

Please see my posting on this verse on top of THIS page.

Peace,
Edip

kshad99

Dear kshad99

Please see my posting on this verse on top of THIS page.

Peace,
Edip

Dear Edip
You have based the translation of "

On the following verse
6010
060.010
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them Allah knows best as to their Faith if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them. But pay the Unbelievers what they have spent (on their dower), and there will be no blame on you if ye marry them on payment of their dower to them. But hold not to the guardianship of unbelieving women ask for what ye have spent on their dowers, and let the (Unbelievers) ask for what they have spent (on the dowers of women who come over to you). Such is the command of Allah He judges (with justice) between you. And Allah is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! When believing women come unto you as fugitives, examine them. Allah is Best Aware of their faith. Then, if ye know them for true believers, send them not back unto the disbelievers. They are not lawful for them (the disbelievers), nor are they (the disbelievers) lawful for them. And give them (the disbelievers) that which they have spent (upon them). And it is no sin for you to marry such women when ye have given them their dues. And hold not to the ties of disbelieving women; and ask for (the return of) that which ye have spent; and let them (the disbelievers) ask for that which they have spent. That is the judgment of Allah. He judgeth between you. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and kt them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

If we analyse this verse then we came to know following facts about these women

these women are primarily non muslims but have become muslim
these have migrated to the muslim state
these are tested or questioned about their motive of migration
If these are upto the mark of the test then these are not returned to the Kuffaar
these are now not "Halaal " for their unbeliever husband and vise versa
All that was spent on them by unbeliever husband will be returned to them.
Muslims are allowed to take them in "nikaah"
If we look at this summary ,these women are now as trustworthy and dependable and righteous muslim as any other muslim woman is .

AND YOU HAVE CATEGORIZED THEM AS

AND SAID
"
These were the wives of the enemy combatants who were persecuted because they acknowledged the message of Islam and sought asylum at the Muslim community (6010). Since they did not get through a normal divorce process, an exceptional contract allows them to marry muslims as free women. Marrying them could create some social, economic and personal complications for the husband"

According to you
1THEY DID NOT GET NORMAL DIVORCE PROCESS (edip)

But this is wrong.Divorce was done by Allah .Even courts declare divorce if the husband does not give formal divorce.
2 AN EXCEPTIONAL ALLOWS THEM TO MARRY MUSLIMS AS FREE WOMAN.(edip)

You did not explain what was the nature of this "EXCEPTIONAL CONTRACT"
Suppose today a non ?muslim woman embraces Islam and her husband does not divorce her.The court declares the divorce ,we would like to know that EXCEPTIONAL CONTRACT " which is going to be arranged for her.

But in fact the women who are grouped as

Are considered categorically as a different group

43

424

In the next paragraph you said

" The word YaMYN means "right hand" or metaphorically "right," "power" or "control." However, its plural form aYMaN is consistently mentioned in the Quran to mean not "right hands" but to mean "oaths" or "promises," implying the mutual nature of the relationship (See 433 589; 912; 1691-94; 2224-225; 3028; 662; 553; 6109). This unique Quranic usage is similar to the semantic difference between the singular and plural forms of the word Ayat (signs) (see 2106).
The expression in question, thus could be translated as "those whom your oaths/contracts have rights over" or "those whom you hold rights through your contracts," or by reading aYMaN (oaths/contracts) as an object rather than a subject, "those who hold/possess your contracts."

No doubt that "Yameen" means

right
right hand
power
oath

and the word "aymaan" is plural of "yameen' and the actual phrase is

What your "Aymaan" Possessed
You are ignoring the word " " which is giving the meaning of

to take control
to possess
to have authority over it

Secondly this is a well know Arabic phrase and phrases in any languages should be translated in the sense in which people of that language use it.
For example in English if someone say that
1 Person so and so is 'beating about the bush" .Does is really mean that that he has some stick in the hand and is beating the ground around some bush ??
2 Do not believe person so and so ,he is "spinning the yarn".Would you translate is literally without paying attention what is meant by 'to spin the yarn'
Many examples can be given

Is an Arabic phrase which does mean "Possession" no matter what is the nature of possession

If it has some other meaning please bring the Proof from the classical Arabic literature.

Look at these reference which clearly explain whether this "Aymaan means "right hand or oath

( 1 / 6790)
( 10 / 491)

So this phrase has nothing to do with "Oaths".

Edip_Yuksel

Dear brother kshad99

Thank you very much for your time trying to improve the translation.

I found your lengthy exposition mostly irrelevant for the main point you are trying to make. First, I think it is obvious that a divorce done with the participation of two parties is different than the divorce done without the participation of both party.

As for the meaning of the "Ma malakat aymanUkum" or "Ma malakat aymanAkum" I disagree with you that we should rely on the traditional meaning ascribed to the expression. Interestingly, you ignored he references I gave in my short discussion on the translation of this verse

" The word YaMYN means "right hand" or metaphorically "right," "power" or "control." However, its plural form aYMaN is consistently mentioned in the Quran to mean not "right hands" but to mean "oaths" or "promises," implying the mutual nature of the relationship (See 433 589; 912; 1691-94; 2224-225; 3028; 662; 553; 6109). This unique Quranic usage is similar to the semantic difference between the singular and plural forms of the word Ayat (signs) (see 2106).

I do not think that "ma malakat ayman!kum" is an expression like "beat around the bush", which cannot be analyzed to its components linguistically. Your evidence is the very sources that I have no trust in; especially when the issue is about slavery, wars, freedom, women's rights, etc.

Peace,
Edip

kshad99

Dear brother kshad99

Thank you very much for your time trying to improve the translation.

I found your lengthy exposition mostly irrelevant for the main point you are trying to make. First, I think it is obvious that a divorce done with the participation of two parties is different than the divorce done without the participation of both party.

As for the meaning of the "Ma malakat aymanUkum" or "Ma malakat aymanAkum" I disagree with you that we should rely on the traditional meaning ascribed to the expression. Interestingly, you ignored he references I gave in my short discussion on the translation of this verse

I do not think that "ma malakat ayman!kum" is an expression like "beat around the bush", which cannot be analyzed to its components linguistically. Your evidence is the very sources that I have no trust in; especially when the issue is about slavery, wars, freedom, women's rights, etc.

Peace,
Edip

"I do not believe " expression can be put anywhere.Poeple have rejected Prophets.Who could stop them.
As far as classical Arabic is concerned authority is not Edip but those persons who have spent there lives in this field.
Taj ul Aroos and Lisaan ul arab such references which no one has ever dared to contradict them.
you are saying so because it clearly rebutted your translation.
As far as my example of "beat about the bush " is concerned ,that is true.

Probably you did not know that "Maa malakat Aymaanukum" is an arabic phrase.
As far divorce is concerned ,again you are not aware if any court declares a divorce ,that is implemented and considered to be as valid as that lady has been formally divorced.

You have circumvented my question about "exceptional contract' If a married non-muslim lady becomes muslim now.What "exceptional contract " as prosposed by you she has to undergo to get into nikaah of a muslim.
By putting such type of unusual behaviour to those neo - muslim lady you are in fact degrading her when Islam (Quran) does not discriminate her from rest of muslim ladies.
I am waiting for explanation of "Exceptional contract"