Menstruating women praying and fasting
-
Peace,
Whilst I agree that menstruating women shouldn't be 'discriminated' against in a social context, or barred from praying/fasting etc.....
And what if that woman wants to have sex and the partner doesn't mind her period? Does the Almighty forbids them therein?
What if? What if they want to commit 3 way bestiality? What if they want to watch child porn?
My point Just because one desires it, doesn't make it okay by any means nor does it make it right.
God wants us to study the world a bit, the quran is not going to contain every single answer to our questions (or it would be a million pages long) It does contain the answer to this question. But in any case, quran is a guide. If God was going to hold our hands, there's be no point to this life.
2222
"Progressive Muslims"And they ask you about menstruation? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
peace
-
Peace,
Whilst I agree that menstruating women shouldn't be 'discriminated' against in a social context, or barred from praying/fasting etc.....
What if? What if they want to commit 3 way bestiality? What if they want to watch child porn?
My point Just because one desires it, doesn't make it okay by any means nor does it make it right.
God wants us to study the world a bit, the quran is not going to contain every single answer to our questions (or it would be a million pages long) It does contain the answer to this question. But in any case, quran is a guide. If God was going to hold our hands, there's be no point to this life.
2222
"Progressive Muslims"And they ask you about menstruation? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
peace
Peace D'Argento,
I don't believe the Almighty forbids us humans of sexual intercourse while the women are in their menstruation cycle. I think it's just a misinterpretation of the word 'impure' and/or 'harmful'... It's a pity that I don't have my Arabic dictionairy with me, because I'm very curious to know what classical Arabic words are being misinterpreted by the translators.
I believe that the Almighty warns the men of the pain and agony (both mentally and physically) that menstruation causes. When they're 'freed'/cleansed/purified of these pain (i.e. cramps and moodswings) then they're allowed, if both agree ofcourse, to have sexual intercourse.
We tend to forget about the barbaric approach of men towards their women when they desire sex. I believe the Almighty just warns them of the harm of not being gentle with their women.Just sharing my thoughts once again!
peace
-
A common accusation against Quranic Muslims is that they are modernists influenced by the West. In my opinion, this view is justified as a good number of Quranists (notably the Tulu-e-Islam movement of Pakistan) are modernists. It seems to be confirmed by the view expressed by one member here who even argues that coitus is permissible during menses. For me, the Quran is very clear on this point. No coitus during the Period. Brothers and sisters, let us not exceed the limits set by God. The Sunnis are already predicting that if we challenge the Hadith, we will eventually challenge the Quran. Let us not justify that.
-
I think that everything in this question revolves on the reason the Quran gives to keep off the wife during menses. It says that not doing so is harmful. Que cuestion should be where is the harm? Sister Latiffa is trying to find out and points to a possibility. I don't know what to say, but I think it is legitimate to try to find out in what way it is harmful. So we have had an article saying that blood is a vehicle for contagion, Latifah says it may be harmful for the woman on account of roughness...
I don't think we should immediately jump to conclusions as to anybody wanting to go against the Quran. We are practically discovering it now some of us for the second time. If we do it with due humility and trust in God, it should be a blessing, we are not barred from reflecting on it.Salaam
-
I don't think that sister Latifah is trying to understand why God has forbidden coitus during menses. She distinctly states "I don't believe that God has forbidden it". Reflecting on the divine wisdom behind Quranic injunctions is permissible but certainly not challenging the injunctions.
-
I think that the best to decide as to the meaning of her words is Latifah herself. You just took one sentence out of her whole message. From the whole message what I get is that she wants to be sure of what the aya really means. I personally have no interest in this going one way or the other, but on getting as faithful an understanding as possible of the aya for those interested. So, if you forgive me, brother, I will start studying your message because it may help get us started on that understanding.
Sister Latifah wondered about the exact formulation. Now you say coitus is forbidden. You may be right and that is the meaning, however that is not the formulation. What is said is
qul huwa 'adhan faa3tazilw-lnisaa'a fi-l mahidh wa la taqrabwhunna hatta yathurna...
then follows the rest of the aya.
As far as I can see what is said TO MEN is to keep off women. If we follow the idea pointed out by Latifah, does this imply that women can't approach men? Coitus is not mentionned. I think that in other ayas and addressing men sexual intercourse is alluded with verb L-M-S-A. I can't remember whether anywhere in the Quran it is expressed with a formulation similar to the one in this aya.
Then it goes on to say that after they are cleaned of the menses men can approach them as God ordered, and Allah loves those who are conscious of Him and those who purify themselves.
As far as I can ascertain than is -and I copy directly from the dictionnary har, injury, trouble, annoyance, grievance, wrong, offense, insult.
What I can see from this is that the reason to tell the men to keep off is that it is harmful, not that it is sinful.
I suppose that what we would like to know is what the harm is. The insistence on purifying or cleansing to me would indicate a matter of hygene. Hopefully some more interested people have a better analysis.
Salaam
-
Peace All,
Although it is not mentioned in the Qur'an that menstruation nullifies the Salaat, but what about the "excretions in verse 443 that nullifies the ablution.
Doesn't this make it impossible for a menstruating woman to prepare for the Salaat?
Or perhaps the word "excretion" refers to something else than blood? -
The Qur'an says Approach not prayers ...... junuban
I have looked this junub in several dictionnaries and I didn't find any "secretion" or similar. All that oculd relate to the context we are looking for says "ritual impurity". So we are back to square one, unless we have a quranic description of ritual impurity where menses are mentioned or identified.
Salaam
-
isn't junuban referring to that if you have gone to the toilet then get cleansed before praying?
It is unlikely that God would create women to menstruate every month and forbid them from praying and fasting because of something that is beyond their control .. then what? you have to make up for all these days you haven't prayed and fasted?
In another verse if a man had sex and couldn't find water then he can do tayammum (with dirt/sand) and still pray so ?????
someone told me that you're not allowed to pray if your hair is wet .. Oh but you can pray if you have cat hair on you. There are many rediculous rules such as women can't pray if they're wearing pants .. it must be a long skirt etc.
please comment
-
Salaam peace4life
In another verse if a man had sex and couldn't find water then he can do tayammum (with dirt/sand) and still pray so ?????
Good point, although the address is not just to men. Women are included, too.
isn't junuban referring to that if you have gone to the toilet then get cleansed before praying?
"It is said" that junuban means had intercourse, although none of the classical dictionaries (well one of them does, but see below, please) states this meaning. This, I just found out, is one of the words that I suspect has been heavily manipulated by interpreters and dictionaries authors subsequently.
All the dictionaries explain, extensively, its meaning related to the root "janb" near, and the derivative verb jaanab alienated. Even "junub" is explained as "alien" as in verse 436 "..and the neighbour related to you/next to you and the alien/far neighbour", moreover the verbs "ijtanaba" and "jaanab" which is of the same root, is excessively used in the quraan as a negative command/request " don't approach". No other usage of this word, in the quraan, as "having intercourse" apart from in the two verses discussing salaat (17 words of this root).
The dictionaries are starnge in this account each one has just one or two lines on this, or a related, meaning, compared to between one and three pages for other meanings. Not only that, but these are the accounts of this word in the different dictionaries
Al Sahaah fil Lughah
. .
. .
The bolded words are "janaba" the second line is just five or six lines away from the first one, which could mean it is the same meaning of the entry "janabato stay with people as a guest", no mention of any intercourse.
Al Muheet
The only mention of this meaning in this line
.aljanaaba al-mani semen (without explaining how such a word is derived from this root, although we have a definite word for semen (mani) used in the quraan and is still used to this day in everdaylife). Why would a language create two words for one definite thing?
Further more, such an expalnation excludes women, since they have no semen.
Maqaayeesul Lugha
This, I think, is the most honest of all! Here is what it says
It's said that the "junub the one who has intercourse with his wife" is derived from this, because he is alienated from what others can do such as salaat, mosque and such! Note the "it's said", which is like saying "I can not prove that, I just heard it and have no opinion on it". The justification of the usage of the word for this meaning is also not convincing is being junub the only thing that keeps one from salaat or mosque?
Please comment!!
So, what's the real meaning of junub in this verse?
-
Salam,
Here is one translation,
56 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
cleanse if you've been to the toilet is already mentioned (ja'a ahadun minkum min algha-et)
sexual intercourse is already mentioned (laamastum annisaa)
if you were junuban thus means something different .. e.g. ejtanibooh in 590590 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
If you do not ejtanibooh (avoid alcohol or intoxicants) then you must be junub ... so get cleansed/ rid of it (ettahharoo)
So junuban must mean state of being intoxicated or drunk or whatever .. remember the reference again in the Quran where Allah says do not go to pray if you are drunk/off your head so that you know what you are saying.
so anyway, where do we forbid women from praying during menstruation?
-
From these two last messages I reason that in fact junuban means roughly and simplifying "without having kept aside of those things from which you should have kept aside"and for which indeed you should purify before salat,
which effectively would rule out menstruation, since there is now way that one should keep aside of it. Would that make sense?Salaam
-
very smart huruf D you can't junub (side from / avoid) menstruation.
It all makes sense now.Junub is when you haven't avoided what God told you to be junub from (alcohol , drugs , intoxicants ) etc. ejtanibooh sun
-
I think that everything in this question revolves on the reason the Quran gives to keep off the wife during menses. It says that not doing so is harmful. Que cuestion should be where is the harm? Sister Latiffa is trying to find out and points to a possibility. I don't know what to say, but I think it is legitimate to try to find out in what way it is harmful. So we have had an article saying that blood is a vehicle for contagion, Latifah says it may be harmful for the woman on account of roughness...
I don't think we should immediately jump to conclusions as to anybody wanting to go against the Quran. We are practically discovering it now some of us for the second time. If we do it with due humility and trust in God, it should be a blessing, we are not barred from reflecting on it.Salaam
when you dont know a verse you are allowed to DISCUSS it HOWEVER at the same time you have rejected all the hadeeths because some have been fabricated why not discuss them and follow the ones that are valid?
-
isn't junuban referring to that if you have gone to the toilet then get cleansed before praying?
It is unlikely that God would create women to menstruate every month and forbid them from praying and fasting because of something that is beyond their control .. then what? you have to make up for all these days you haven't prayed and fasted?
In another verse if a man had sex and couldn't find water then he can do tayammum (with dirt/sand) and still pray so ?????
someone told me that you're not allowed to pray if your hair is wet .. Oh but you can pray if you have cat hair on you. There are many rediculous rules such as women can't pray if they're wearing pants .. it must be a long skirt etc.
please comment
It is unlikely that Allah has put feelings in us and then forbids us to have sex before marriage
It is unlikely that Allah has made some people gay (well Allah hasnt made them gays but Allah can prevent it if He wants to) and then forbids them to act on it
It is unlikely that Allah has given us pubic hairs yet He wants us to shave it
It is unlikely that We have wet dreams and such and yet Allah wants us to clean ourselves before praying if we have wet dreams (or have sex)
It is unlikely that Allah has given us free will yet He wants us to obey HIM and will punish if we dont believe into HIM?
It is unlikely that Allah has given us so a choice of so many foods that can be eaten YET forbidden us to eat some (pork and carnivore animals)?
and on and on...You cannot say that these rules are ridiculous.. you are insulting your LORD, ALLAH.. you can rephrase as saying "please explain" or "WHY" etc but you cant call them ridiculous... is this where your progressiveness has taken you? Maybe its because you dont take hadeeths to be valid you are falling short on explanations and reasoning..
-
when you dont know a verse you are allowed to DISCUSS it HOWEVER at the same time you have rejected all the hadeeths because some have been fabricated why not discuss them and follow the ones that are valid?
It's like taking good examples out of pornos. So you agree 'some are fabricated' but somehow the rest are okay?1 What kind of logic is that. If you were reading a book, and you KNEW just ONE thing was a proven lie (and we have more than one example), why would you believe anything else in that book? You would conclude successfully that the author is a liar and is not to be trusted.
-
As Salaamu Alaikum all,
From http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14102.0
- PHYSICAL PREPARATION FOR; OR UNREADINESS FOR AS-SALAAT
We will begin with one of the ayah used in the last section, 443, on how Allah tells us to be physically prepared for As-Salaat. We will use three ayah that we are aware of that deal with the aspect of physical preparedness for As-Salaat. Several key words such as ?ghusl? and ?tahharah? in their various grammatical forms for usage will be pointed out to denote the guidance given to the believer.
Ghasala verb form I ~ to wash
b) impf. act. (yaghtasilu)
{43}
Transliteration Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la taqraboo alssalata waantum sukara hatta taAAlamoo ma taqooloona wala junuban illa AAabiree sabeelin hatta taghtasiloo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum inna Allaha kana AAafuwwan ghafooran
Literal You, you those who believed, do not approach the prayers and you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying, and nor distant from God/impure, except crossing a road/way, until you wash yourselves with water, and if you were sick/diseased or on a long distance travel, or any of you came from the safe and hidden depression in ground used for human discharge (toilet) or you touched repeatedly/touched and felt repeatedly (could mean had intercourse with) the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust, pure/good dust, so wipe with your faces and your hands, that God was/is often forgiving/pardoning, forgiving.
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.The important aspects of this ayat regarding physical preparation for As-Salaat can be pointed out to be those of physical purity. In this ayat, Allah gives us the command to ?taghtasiloo?, or to ?wash? if we are in a state of impurity, except when traveling; before approaching As-Salaat. ?How to wash? is not yet explained to the believer, but will be done so by Allah in another ayat. This ayat continues with the command to ?tayammamoo?, or to use clean sand, earth, or dust to wipe your faces and your hands with if, you are on a journey, have used the bathroom, or you have been in contact with women, and you can find no water.
c) impv. (ighsil)
{6}
Transliteration Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona
Literal You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones, and if you wereimpure/unclean, so be purified/cleaned, and if you were sick/diseased or on (a) journey/trip/voyage or one of you came from the safe hidden depression in the ground (toilet), or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust good/pure dust, so rub/wipe with your faces and your hands from it, God does not want to make/put on you strain/hardship, and but He wants to purify you mentally and physically and to complete (E) His blessing on you, maybe/perhaps you thank/be grateful.
O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.This ayat is more specific in that Allah tells us exactly how to make ?ghusl? to prepare physically for As-Salaat. The first command is ?faghsiloo?, or ?wash? your faces. Continuing in that command is the order to also ?wash? your hands to the elbows, which includes your forearms obviously. Then Allah tells the believers ?wamsaHoo?, or to rub or wipe clean our heads and feet up to the ankles.
Allah gives us a new command here for the state of ?junub?, also termed ceremonial impurity; which is ?faT-Tah-haroo?, or to bath your whole body. This command is for any believer that is in a state of ?junnub?, i.e. one that necessitates ?tah-haroo?, or bathing completely.
Allah again completes and restates His Mercy upon us by stating that if we are ill, on a journey, have relieved ourselves by nature, or have been in contact with women and don?t find water to perform the above functions; we are commanded ?fatay-yam-mamoo?, or to clean with sand, earth or dust our faces and hands before starting As-Salaat. Allah tells us the He gives us this Mercy because He does not want to make the Deen difficult on us, He wants to purify or cleanse us, and that He wants to complete His Blessings on us so that maybe we will become grateful!
Tahara verb form I ~ to be or become clean or pure
b) impf. act. (yaThuru)
Tahhara verb form II ~ to purify, to cleanse. (n. vb.) purification, cleansing. (pcple. act.) one who purifies or cleanses. (pcple. pass.) purified, clean.
b) impf. act. (yuTahhiru)
taTahhara verb form V ~ to be purified; to cleanse oneself, to keep oneself clean. (pcple. act.) one who cleanses himself.
a) perf. act. (taTahharna)
c) impv. (iTTahar for TaTahhar)
d) pcple. act. (mutaTahhir and muTTahir)
{222}
Transliteration Wayas-aloonaka AAani almaheedi qul huwa athan faiAAtaziloo alnnisaa fee almaheedi wala taqraboohunna hatta yathurna fa-itha tatahharna fa/toohunna min haythu amarakumu Allahu inna Allaha yuhibbu alttawwabeena wayuhibbu almutatahhireena
Literal And they ask/question you about the menstruation, say "It is mild harm, so separate/withdraw the women in the menstruation, and do not approach them (F) until they be cleaned/purified, so if they became cleaned/purified, so come to them (F), from where/when God ordered you, that God loves/likes the repentant, and He loves/likes the pure/clean.
They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say They are a hurt and a pollution So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.This ayat is important to physical preparedness before As-Salaat because of it?s implication for women. This ayat tells men not to approach women during their menstrual cycles or post birth bleeding, ?Al-MaHeeD?; until they have cleansed or purified themselves thereof, ?yathurna?. And when they have cleansed or purified themselves, ?ta-Tah-harna?, then men can approach their wives in the ways approved of by Allah. This is very important because it connects the state of ?Al-MaHeeD?, or menstruation and post birth bleeding, as one necessitating ?tah-hara? or cleansing and purification. Allah has told us in the last ayat given, 56, that we should not approach As-Salaat in a state necessitating ?tah-hara?. So this establishes from the Qur?an that women are exempted from As-Salaat as long as they are in a state of ?Al-MaHeed? as a Mercy to them from Allah!
An important point needs to be made here about this special Mercy given to women by Allah. It specifically deals with the state of bleeding dealing with the womb and the birthing function of women. This is the method by which Allah has chosen to continue the chain of human life on earth. The wombs are told to be reverenced in Sura 4 ayat 1. Allah shows us how He has reverenced the wombs of women and their importance by giving them a special permission to not have to perform As-Salaat because of this state. This does not in any way denote a ?defiency? in a female?s religion as is commonly stated or believed. That would clearly be against the Qur?an, since Allah has told us to reverence the wombs that bore us. Also the word for the womb itself, ?Al-ArHaam?, comes from the word ?RaHma?, which means mercy. ?RaHma? is the root word of the two most used attributes of Allah, Ar-RaHmaan and Ar-RaHeem!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
It is unlikely that Allah has put feelings in us and then forbids us to have sex before marriage
It is unlikely that Allah has made some people gay (well Allah hasnt made them gays but Allah can prevent it if He wants to) and then forbids them to act on it
It is unlikely that Allah has given us pubic hairs yet He wants us to shave it
It is unlikely that We have wet dreams and such and yet Allah wants us to clean ourselves before praying if we have wet dreams (or have sex)
It is unlikely that Allah has given us free will yet He wants us to obey HIM and will punish if we dont believe into HIM?
It is unlikely that Allah has given us so a choice of so many foods that can be eaten YET forbidden us to eat some (pork and carnivore animals)?
and on and on...You cannot say that these rules are ridiculous.. you are insulting your LORD, ALLAH.. you can rephrase as saying "please explain" or "WHY" etc but you cant call them ridiculous... is this where your progressiveness has taken you? Maybe its because you dont take hadeeths to be valid you are falling short on explanations and reasoning..
Salam,
I totally disagree with you because you keep mentioning things about God that you have no knowledge of.
Free will we have got so we can create the life we want with the help of the scriptures guidence.
Being gay, is a cause of your own free will and you can turn and become heterosexuell if you really want it strong enough.
Ban of some food is only an advice for our own good, our healths sake.
Sex before marriage is also similiar to that of food, it's what is best for us. keep to one partner and be careful to spread your seed and so on, nothing strange I think.And The punishment if we not obey our Lord, well if you instead turn the sentence and put it as "If you not obey your own inner voice" yes, then you will go against yourself and that is a punishment itself.
You are the master of your thoughts, The God or Universe only give you the feedback, so why blame something you have create on your own!?
That is so classical to point fingers and blame the faults on others, when in fact you are the one who can change this and turn the whole deal if you want.
Maria