The ?God Alone? Challenge

savage_carrot

Thanks bro Navid for the succint explanation. I think it's pointless to go further with this due to obvious reasons .

Raj-ah

Umm, I think she means it's what everyone finds individually, since we're all at different levels. This is actually a higher plateau of "democracy" and freedom. It does not exclude people and force them to follow pointless traditions in order to be a "Muslim." Everyone is happy with what they have on their own level, while still following the quran. Perhaps you should check who has the real "autocratic personality"

Peace

Well; you are also un-official speaker for Savage-Carrot, I did not knew about that. You still have several un answered questions in different threads, where I called you to respond but you did not and now i know the reason

Savage-carrot

Few months back when some one asked me is there any Muslim Forum where you can discuss anything you want without any fear? without banning or getting abused? I referred them to Free-minds, but it was before Ahmed Baghat and myself( for a week or so) getting a ban on the forum. I think most of the moderators and Administrators of this site are sensitive on many issues and I am trying to avoid direct involvement with them debating so may be I would not be banned in future.
When I joined the forum may be 2005 the traffic was slow with only few active members, but it was contribution of each and every member of the forum including Me, Ahmed or any one who got banned to get a fame it desrves.

Remember Islam is Unity, If it would have been personal, no pain would have been taken by these messangers to teach us. So you are telling us that Majority does not matter is a cry far away.

savage_carrot

Well; you are also un-official speaker for Savage-Carrot, I did not knew about that. You still have several un answered questions in different threads, where I called you to respond but you did not and now i know the reason

I am trying to avoid direct involvement with them debating so may be I would not be banned in future.

But "indirect involvement" by insulting their names is fine, no matter.

When I joined the forum may be 2005 the traffic was slow with only few active members, but it was contribution of each and every member of the forum including Me, Ahmed or any one who got banned to get a fame it desrves.
Maybe we should have a Wall of Fame nope

Remember Islam is Unity, If it would have been personal, no pain would have been taken by these messangers to teach us. So you are telling us that Majority does not matter is a cry far away.
If even after pointing it out, one still doesn't get it...I do feel like crying far away but I'll restrain myself.

Jack

If the majority is so bloody important, you should be following jesus! Follow his way! Or you are doomed! Doomed I tell ya!

Your way is through Jesus christ! yes

huruf

I must be missing something. When has anybody counted anything? I have not been counted. And should we wait for everybody to be counted for everything in order to have a proper behaviour?

Navid

Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp? Withon the people who choose to follow the quran, there is no "majority" or "minority," everyone is free to go by their own understanding at their level. This is an even higher level of freedom. Everyone goes at their pace in striving to become a better muslim with their own unique understandings and view, while at the same time following all quranic laws. AND we are all at peace with each other. This is undeniable fact, and very easy to understand. Perhaps an example will help

Let's say we lived in a democracy, where we all voted for who the president will be. The majority would obviously win and some would be left to be stuck with whoever was voted in, unhappily. Now, imagine a society (although impossible in politics) where everyone got who they voted for, and were still following the rules. This is what we have. You have a misconception that a group where the majority doesn't agree on everything, they're automatically "autocratic." Whereas we have surpassed that level and are the exact opposite. I hope this helps

Peace

Raj-ah

Dargento

If the majority is so bloody important, you should be following jesus! Follow his way! Or you are doomed! Doomed I tell ya!

Your way is through Jesus christ!

Yeah it is so bloody important, otherwise Prophet would not try to convert people all over Arabia, he would have been rather confined with Minority of followers he had.

I love Jesus! D

Allei lou ya; Allei lou ya.

Samia

Dargento
Yeah it is so bloody important, otherwise Prophet would not try to convert people all over Arabia, he would have been rather confined with Minority of followers he had.

The prophet was not trying to convert anybody. He was delivering a message. He had no control over anyone.

Raj-ah

Samia

The prophet was not trying to convert anybody. He was delivering a message. He had no control over anyone.

Funny as usual, your posts are treat to read

Prophet was delivering a Message; why?

Without any purpose
He wanted people to be as they were after listening to his Message
He wanted them to embrace Islam

Any balance minded person knows it is #3.
He fought wars for this purpose, he took capitives, he travelled, he killed, he pardoned.

Raj-ah

Navid

Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp? Withon the people who choose to follow the quran, there is no "majority" or "minority," everyone is free to go by their own understanding at their level. This is an even higher level of freedom. Everyone goes at their pace in striving to become a better muslim with their own unique understandings and view, while at the same time following all quranic laws.

If you assure me that you will not run away this time as you did in "Ijtihaad" thread, I start a new thread and you prove it to me what you just wrote above. I am sure soon you will realize that what you are saying was due to sentiments and to gain high marks in the eyes of one of the mOds.

savage_carrot

I start a new thread and you prove it to me what you just wrote above

When someone's mind is made up, they can't see it even when it's right in front of them. What a waste of time.

I am sure soon you will realize that what you are saying was due to sentiments and to gain high marks in the eyes of one of the mOds.
Yes, that's right, however did you know? And I thought second sight was only for the highlanders.

To clarify even though there is absolutely NO need and things are obvious...not everyone is stupid enough to debate things because of sentiments and to gain high marks in the eyes of their peers...wait a sec, could this be a case of because I do it, they must do it too? Kinda like the "autocratic personality" bit?

When people make such statements in public and still expect to be taken seriously... )

Raj-ah

Savage_Carrot

When people make such statements in public and still expect to be taken seriously...

Take it lightly then....
Whatever; nothing is gona change my preception regarding your personality until I see a change; offcourse you don't care for how I preceive about you, but that is what I felt and I said that.
Those who donot care about majority are not democratic minded people that is for sure and here is the proof

Savage_Carrot
"Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find.

That is why you and your mind alikes are trying to destroy Islam, by building their own mosques and Kibla's every where, you are doing the same thing which was done by the builders of Mosque Zaraar (dharar).
How can a person have his unique understanding and view of Quranic Ayats and at the same time he will be following all the laws of Islam? When people make such statements in public and still expect to be taken seriously...

Just for a moment leave the biasness and get rid of the thought that all the "tradionalists" as you call them are fools and backward people, the same way most of Atheists think and say about those who beleive in any religon.

Today Mushraff has declared sort of Martial Law over here, and I hope you will not after reading my post.

Thanks.

savage_carrot

Take it lightly then....
Whatever; nothing is gona change my preception regarding your personality until I see a change; offcourse you don't care for how I preceive about you, but that is what I felt and I said that.
Those who donot care about majority are not democratic minded people that is for sure and here is the proof

Of course I will take it lightly until I see a change. You don't care about how I perceive so what's the point? We learn by exchange of information, seeing both sides, when one person's mind is made up...there is no point.

Savage_Carrot
"Does it matter what the majority agrees with?
It's what we ourselves find.

That is why you and your mind alikes are trying to destroy Islam, by building their own mosques and Kibla's every where, you are doing the same thing which was done by the builders of Mosque Zaraar (dharar).
Stop being insecure. If all the "mosques" and kiblas built lead to God alone, there should be no problem but obviously there is, because some think there should be only one way of doing things and anyone else is wrong. Pity. And here is the real "autocratic personality" rearing its head. If anything is being destroyed, those are the illusions built up to make it look like the real thing. People will follow what they think is right, that's freedom for you...no compulsion in religion, why does it bother you so much?

How can a person have his unique understanding and view of Quranic Ayats and at the same time he will be following all the laws of Islam? When people make such statements in public and still expect to be taken seriously...

Of course useless statements such as "you will soon realise you are doing this because of sentiments...etc" should be taken seriously eh. It has been explained time and time again in this thread alone.

Just for a moment leave the biasness and get rid of the thought that all the "tradionalists" as you call them are fools and backward people, the same way most of Atheists think and say about those who beleive in any religon.
Irrelevant unfounded accusations/statements. Leave your biases aside and stick to the topic not emotional jaunts.

Today Mushraff has declared sort of Martial Law over here, and I hope you will not after reading my post.

Irrelevant, but that was yesterday btw. And I hope you'll realise after reading all the posts what the problem is. I won't hold my breath.

Navid

Navid
If you assure me that you will not run away this time as you did in "Ijtihaad" thread, I start a new thread and you prove it to me what you just wrote above. I am sure soon you will realize that what you are saying was due to sentiments and to gain high marks in the eyes of one of the mOds.

Firstly show me one verse where the word "ijtihaad" is used and how it means what you want it to mean. You have yet to do this. It is you running away, not me.

Are you joking? Freud called, he wants his psychoanalysis back bro. Oh well, this is expected of someone who cannot respond to the actual argument, and instead makes silly comments.

Samia

Samia
Funny as usual, your posts are treat to read

Prophet was delivering a Message; why?

Without any purpose
He wanted people to be as they were after listening to his Message
He wanted them to embrace Islam

Any balance minded person knows it is #3.
He fought wars for this purpose, he took capitives, he travelled, he killed, he pardoned.

Raj-ah

Well, God says so (8822). If you have any issues, bring them up with Him.
People change themselves, AND God says He does not change people until they change themselves. The prophet has no say in whether someone converts or not.

Of course you have no time reading the quraan as much as reading, and insisting on, this nonesense

the builders of Mosque Zaraar (dharar).

And BTW, if you read the quraan, you will find that it is written "DHaraarAN" not DHaraar . Now find me a name of someone ending with accusative nunnation brickwall
Why do you forget their partners "Kufran" ? ;D 9107 ( )
Are they the same construction company, "Zaraar", mentioned in this verse 2231 " "?
I explained this to you many times, but as long as you think that my posts are a treat to read, how can you understand? giveup

Raj-ah

Samia

Raj-ah
Well, God says so (8822). If you have any issues, bring them up with Him.
People change themselves, AND God says He does not change people until they change themselves. The prophet has no say in whether someone converts or not.

Your statement is irrelevant to what I replied to Bigmo's post.
Samia I know you can understand what I am trying to say but you wont accept it.

WHY WAS PROPHET DELIVERING THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM? He was on mission assigned to him by Allah, and what was he trying to acheive by delivering the Message? offcourse even a third grader can know this

TO CONVERT THOSE WHO DONOT BELIEVED IN ONE GOD

to acheive his goal he

Fought Wars, He Killed, He Travelled, He pardoned, He preached.

Raj-ah

SAMIA

{107}
And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.

Samia

And BTW, if you read the quraan, you will find that it is written "DHaraarAN" not DHaraar . Now find me a name of someone ending with accusative nunnation
Why do you forget their partners "Kufran" ? 9107 ( )
Are they the same construction company, "Zaraar", mentioned in this verse 2231 " "?
I explained this to you many times, but as long as you think that my posts are a treat to read, how can you understand?

Oh Samia are you this Innocent, did I said in any of my post that Quran has named that Masjid mentioned in the verse as Dharaar, NO, it was the name given to the Masjid by the People and Prophet after revealtion of the verse

DHERAAR (verbal noun ?MASDAR)

Harming other, or damaging wealth , dignity and body, or offending their personal rights, in the word DHERAAR the person who cases the harm is also included. (causing harm) Or harm done by some one with purpose. There is a sense of subject or the one who did the harm in it.

So who built that Mosque were actually HARMING ISLAM as I pointed out to Savage_Carrot. And Allah said about those who built that Mosque

And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.

See what Allah says about the people who talk about disuniting Muslims and telling us to built a KIBLA anywhere we wish.

Samia

Raj-ah

I understand you and you understand me. We do not agree!!

Do you mean the prophet fought and killed those who refused to convert? I disagree here.

He behaved as the quraan orders him (and us) no killing of those who refuse to convert just for that reason. No compulsion.

Did he fight the people of the book in order to convert them? If he is a messenger of all the world, and his mission is to convert everyone, why did he fight some but not the others?

He travelled and fought to deliver the message and killed the transgressants, and those who fought him to block the message from the masses.

Why didn't he fight the kings of Abyssinia and of Egypt? These two countries continued to be Christians a long time after him. But he fought the Romans who were also Christians.

Samia

SAMIA

{107}
And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.

Samia

Oh Samia are you this Innocent, did I said in any of my post that Quran has named that Masjid mentioned in the verse as Dharaar, NO, it was the name given to the Masjid by the People and Prophet after revealtion of the verse

DHERAAR (verbal noun ?MASDAR)

If those people are stupid, why do you follow them? Why do you even believe someone saying that they called the mosque "Zaraar"?

The prophet understands the message delivered to him. He would not make a common noun a proper name. Caling it "Dharaar, or actually Dhiraar" makes it quite innocent, as it removes the "harmful" translation and makes it untranslatable....just a name. And by the way, this name DOES exist. I mean Dhiraar.

Raj-ah

Samia

I understand you and you understand me. We do not agree!!

Do you mean the prophet fought and killed those who refused to convert? I disagree here.

He behaved as the quraan orders him (and us) no killing of those who refuse to convert just for that reason. No compulsion.

Did he fight the people of the book in order to convert them? If he is a messenger of all the world, and his mission is to convert everyone, why did he fight some but not the others?

He travelled and fought to deliver the message and killed the transgressants, and those who fought him to block the message from the masses.

Why didn't he fight the kings of Abyssinia and of Egypt? These two countries continued to be Christians a long time after him. But he fought the Romans who were also Christians.

I am sorry to say then you may have not gone through many verses which talk about "Captives/Slaves" "Jihaad" etc.

Samia

He travelled and fought to deliver the message and killed the transgressants, and those who fought him to block the message from the masses.

So he Killed, why? While answering this may be you will arrive at what I failed to made you understand.

Samia

Why didn't he fight the kings of Abyssinia and of Egypt? These two countries continued to be Christians a long time after him. But he fought the Romans who were also Christians

So he fought, WHy?

Samia

Did he fight the people of the book in order to convert them? If he is a messenger of all the world, and his mission is to convert everyone, why did he fight some but not the others?

The time from which he was appointed as a Messanger till his death, he tried to fullfill his mission through travelling, Preaching, Killing, Fighting, Pardoning, may be if he lived further Abyssinia and Egypt would also be included in the list.