Flaws in "Islamic"/sharee3a law regarding Bequest and Inheritance

unknownuser

Peace Samia,

This is what Shahrour believes to be incorret applying one case to all, although the verse has more than one example. If the law is to give the male twice as much as the female, why giving examples of other cases (one female, more than two females)?

Perhaps best way to try and explain this is with examples.

Example 1 son and 3 daughters (one or two females? calculation)
1/2x = female share
2*1/2x = male share

2*1/2x + 1/2x + 1/2x + 1/2x = 1
x = 2/5
? (2/5) = 1/5 = female share; male share = 2/5

Example 1 son and 3 daughters (more than two females? calculation)
2/3x = female share
2*2/3x = male share

2*2/3x + 2/3x + 2/3x + 2/3x = 1
x = 3/10
2/3 (3/10) = 1/5 = female share; male share = 2/5

Notice that in both calculations it works out the same amount!

Another point is considering that the part of (if she was one, she gets the half, and if they were more than two they get 2/3) as in case there are no males, although the verse is about "awladukum your children".

The result is that when the heiress is just a girl, she gets half, and the remainder goes to people who are not mentioned in this verse. This is due to the misunderstanding of the verse being about different genders. n case of similar genders or one heir/heiress, it is simple the inheritance is divided between only those mentioned in this verse another parent and the child/children. If both parents are dead, all goes to the child, irrespective of their gender.

That is correct; example 1 daughter?

1/2x = female share
1/2x = 1
x = 2
? (2) = 1 = female share (i.e. she gets the whole inheritance)

For the example you gave we have one son and 5 females. The law applicable is
5 > 3 they get 2/3 or 14/21
male gets 1/3 or 7/21

No, the male gets a bit less; 2/7 or 6/21 as stated in prior post and 1/7 each (5/7 or 15/21 total) goes to girls.

Samia

Salaam Nun

Please read the article carefully. You are applying the understanding of "for the male twice as much as a female", whereas the verse says "for the male as much as the two females"

The rule you apply, which is Y = 2X is applicable only if you have two females. More than two, we have the other rule
"If they are women more than two, they get 2/3"

I don't get the argument here, but, it's easy enough to suppose that a male = 2 females, then split it equally. Hence, a large family of 3 males + 6 females => y/(3*2 + 6) where y is the total inheritance assigned to children, then each male recieves 1/6y, each female 1/12y.

You seem to have got it

Pardon me but doesn't it say if they are only daughters or such?

No, it does not. It is all in one verse about "your children". The law rotates around the share of the female, who is the variable and the male's share is the dependent on the value of this variable.

unknownuser

Salaam Nun

Please read the article carefully. You are applying the understanding of "for the male twice as much as a female", whereas the verse says "for the male as much as the two females"

The rule you apply, which is Y = 2X is applicable only if you have two females. More than two, we have the other rule
"If they are women more than two, they get 2/3"

OK to make sure another example 10 sons and 3 daughters then?

2/3 goes to the girls
1/3 to the ten boys

Do the above seem fair according to Qur?an?

unknownuser

Salaam Nun

Please read the article carefully. You are applying the understanding of "for the male twice as much as a female", whereas the verse says "for the male as much as the two females"

The rule you apply, which is Y = 2X is applicable only if you have two females. More than two, we have the other rule
"If they are women more than two, they get 2/3"

You seem to have got it

No, it does not. It is all in one verse about "your children". The law rotates around the share of the female, who is the variable and the male's share is the dependent on the value of this variable.

"The two females" is a different expression from "two females" and in 411, the indefinite article is used with reference to nisaan, meaning the correct translation is "The male has a portion as much as two females", not "the two females". There is no specific demarcation there, am I missing something?

Hence, we just substitute males into females (i.e. 1 male = 2 females) - hence, 1 male, 2 females => 4 females, getting 2/3rd the total inheritance, with the rest divided up, or 1 single male => 2 females, hence 2/3rd total inheritance, or 1 female => 1/2 total inheritance. That leaves a surplus of some number, either 1/3 of the overall, or 1/2 the overall which is then given to parents, after the payment of any debts, and if there is a surplus, it must be specified in a will, the same according to 47 and 48 which seems to be overlooked often.

Having 1 female or male inheriting all the inheritance, negates the rest of the verse.

OK to make sure another example 10 sons and 3 daughters then

2/3 goes to the girls
1/3 to the ten boys

Do the above seem fair according to Quran?

60 males and 2 females. Large family

unknownuser

60 males and 2 females. Large family

Marshalla!

Or $90 million fortune with one son and 60 daughters thus

2/3 or $1 million to each daughter
$30 million to the one son ;D

Samia

"The two females" is a different expression from "two females" and in 411, the indefinite article is used with reference to nisaan, meaning the correct translation is "The male has a portion as much as two females", not "the two females". There is no specific demarcation there, am I missing something?

The verse says the two females; not two females
the two females

two females

OK to make sure another example 10 sons and 3 daughters then

2/3 goes to the girls
1/3 to the ten boys

Do the above seem fair according to Quran?

This is a general law. The specific should be covered by the be bequest which is a duty to prepare and should be applied in its entirty, not just 1/3 according to the shari3a law.

Mind you, it could also be 11 girls and 1 boy.
Wise parents, knowing the number and circumsatnces of their children, should write a will. The probem is, although the will is compulsory, the shari3a law rendered it useless because it makes it subordinate to the inheritance law, whereas the quran makes it the original way of distributing the wealth, and the inheritance law is just in case no will as written, or in case some wealth was not covered by the will/gained later/compensation for the circumstances.surrounding the death of the parent...etc

unknownuser

The verse says the two females; not two females
the two females

two females

My bad, I was looking at a transliteration which didn't include that.

I guess, by 47 your understanding would be correct, but it's very strange.

Samia

I guess, by 47 your understanding would be correct, but it's very strange.

It's not my understanding, although I like it.

unknownuser

This is a general law. The specific should be covered by the be bequest which is a duty to prepare and should be applied in its entirty, not just 1/3 according to the shari3a law.

Mind you, it could also be 11 girls and 1 boy.
Wise parents, knowing the number and circumsatnces of their children, should write a will. The probem is, although the will is compulsory, the shari3a law rendered it useless because it makes it subordinate to the inheritance law, whereas the quran makes it the original way of distributing the wealth, and the inheritance law is just in case no will as written, or in case some wealth was not covered by the will/gained later/compensation for the circumstances.surrounding the death of the parent...etc

Does not make sense and believe 2/3 and ? in verse 411 only apply in cases when there is no will and there are no sons else it would make Qur'an contradict with math adding greater than whole.

Another example
A woman dies leaving husband, mother, father, and daughter. What is their share each?

411 says ? husband gets ?, mother 1/6, father 1/6, and only daughter gets ? thus?

? + 1/6 + 1/6 + ? = 13/12 > 1

Proper way is to let variable x = unit of distribution ordained by God for this case thus?

1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/2x = 1
13/12x = 1
x = 12/13

Daughter gets 1/2 * 12/13 = 6/13
Husband gets 1/4 * 12/13 = 3/13
Father gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13
Mother gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13

Likewise for two or more daughters; e.g. for 3 daughters equation becomes?

1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 2/3x = 1
3/12x + 2/12x + 2/12x + 8/12x = 1
15/12x = 1
x = 12/15

Daughters get 2/3 * 12/15 = 8/15 or 8/45 each
Husband gets 1/4 * 12/15 = 1/5
Father gets 1/6 * 12/15 = 2/15
Mother gets 1/6 * 12/15 = 2/15

peace

Samia

Does not make sense and believe 2/3 and ? in verse 411 only apply in cases when there is no will and there are no sons else it would make Qur'an contradict with math adding greater than whole.

Another example
A woman dies leaving husband, mother, father, and daughter. What is their share each?

411 says ? husband gets ?, mother 1/6, father 1/6, and only daughter gets ? thus?

Where does it say only daughter? It says one daughter. The verse concerns "your children". Of course if they are of the same gender, by common sense they take all the rest.

What you calculated makes 13/12.
And where did you get husband gets 1/4? According to the shari3a law, a girl is not "walad", as in verse "wa lakum nisf ma taraka azwajukum in lam yakun lahunna waladun and you shall have half of what is left by your wives if they do not have a child", but as explained in the first post, "walad" is understood as "boy/male child" (Look in Averroes "Ibn Rushd" Fiqh of the Sunni schools of thought, V.2; P. 512).

Now tell me, how do you solve this

A man dies and leaves

one girl and a wife
two girls and his parents and a brother and a sister
Also replace (girl/girls) with (boy/boys).

unknownuser

Peace Samia,

Main point overlooked in verse 411 is that 2/3 or 1/2 are only applicable for girls (when there are no sons) else ?to the male equal fortune the two females? is meaningless and never comes in play with any female/male combination (i.e. if # of females = > 2 they get 2/3; if one she gets 1/2).

Where does it say only daughter? It says one daughter. The verse concerns "your children". Of course if they are of the same gender, by common sense they take all the rest.

What you calculated makes 13/12.
And where did you get husband gets 1/4?

I should have wrote according to Qur?an verses 411 and 412; to clarify...

A woman dies leaving husband, mother, father, and daughter. What is their share each?

Since there are no sons in this case.
411 daughter gets 1/2
412 husband gets 1/4

1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/2x = 1
13/12x = 1
x = 12/13

Daughter gets 1/2 * 12/13 = 6/13
Husband gets 1/4 * 12/13 = 3/13
Father gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13
Mother gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13

Now tell me, how do you solve this
A man dies and leaves

one girl and a wife
two girls and his parents and a brother and a sister
Also replace (girl/girls) with (boy/boys).
one girl and a wife
411 ?and if she was one, so for her the half? thus girl portion = 1/2
412 ?so if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the eighth from what you (P) left" wife portion = 1/8

Depending on school of thought; Abu-Haneefa and Ibn Hanbal will divide it as...

girl gets 1/2 + 3/8 surplus = 7/8
wife gets 1/8

Malik and Shafii will give the 3/8 surplus to Islamic state.

I disagree with above and stay consistant applying proportionality to the whole according to Qur'an...

1/2x + 1/8x = 1
4/8x + 1/8x = 1
5/8x = 1
x = 8/5

girl gets 1/2*(8/5) = 4/5
wife gets 1/8*(8/5) = 1/5

Switching case - one boy and a wife
411 ?to the male equal fortune the two females? thus we calculate as if for portion of two females...

2(1/2x) + 1/8x = 1
8/8x + 1/8x = 1
9/8x = 1
x = 8/9

boy gets 2(1/2*(8/9)) = 8/9
wife gets 1/8*(8/9) = 1/9

Obviously the boy gets more due to being responsible for parents care.

unknownuser

two girls and his parents and a brother and a sister
411 "so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds" -- two girls portion = 2/3
411 "and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the sixth from what he left,if for him was a child" -- each parents = 1/6

412 "and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or father or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the sixth" -- brother and a sister because their parents and children are present get NOTHING!

2/3x + 1/6x + 1/6x = 1
6/6x
x = 1

girls get 1/3 each or 2/3 total
each parent gets 1/6 each or 1/3 total

Switching case - two boys and his parents and a brother and a sister

411 each parent gets 1/6 each or 1/3 total and boys get the rest of 2/3 or 1/3 each.

412 brother and a sister again get NOTHING!

This was like a homework assignment. ;D

Samia

Salaam Nun

Thanks a lot for solving the problems, and I apologize for giving you a homework at Sundy night.

Peace Samia,

Main point overlooked in verse 411 is that 2/3 or 1/2 are only applicable for girls (when there are no sons) else ?to the male equal fortune the two females? is meaningless and never comes in play with any female/male combination (i.e. if # of females = > 2 they get 2/3; if one she gets 1/2).

It is only meaningless if you read it through islamic law. It is very meaningful and completely different from the wrong understanding of "twice as much as a female". The point is that we have three fromulas, not one, in this verse

X/Y = 1
X/Y = 2
X/Y = more than two (where X = number of females and Y is the number of males). Remember that the number of males is not mentioned every time because it is dependent on what the female gets, and what the female gets depends on the number of females. The three poosibilities we have in this verse (1, 2, 3) are the basic formula If the ratio of females to males is 1, 2 or more.

Depending on school of thought; Abu-Haneefa and Ibn Hanbal will divide it as...

girl gets 1/2 + 3/8 surplus = 7/8
wife gets 1/8

boy gets 2(1/2*(8/9)) = 8/9
wife gets 1/8*(8/9) = 1/9

Why does the wife get 1/9 when her share is fixed and only dependent on whether the husband has children or not? This discrepancy is becaus of the misunderstanding of the main verse of inheritance (410).

two girls and his parents and a brother and a sister
411 "so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds" -- two girls portion = 2/3
411 "and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the sixth from what he left,if for him was a child" -- each parents = 1/6

412 "and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or father or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the sixth" -- brother and a sister because their parents and children are present get NOTHING!

2/3x + 1/6x + 1/6x = 1
6/6x
x = 1

girls get 1/3 each or 2/3 total
each parent gets 1/6 each or 1/3 total

Switching case - two boys and his parents and a brother and a sister

411 each parent gets 1/6 each or 1/3 total and boys get the rest of 2/3 or 1/3 each.

412 brother and a sister again get NOTHING!

This was like a homework assignment. ;D

That's correct, but this is your calculations, not any islamic law's. islamic law gives the brothers and sisters of the dead if the dead has daughters only.