Riba as I understand
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Peace Sharp,
But what if you purchase shares of a Company upon its incorporation at its offer price (implying share of its ownership) and receive a share of its dividends (share of profits)? Is that okay?
The problem is that the offer price itself is partly based on speculation. In an ideal society, in which the offer price is based purely on actual earnings, and the demand/supply forces, then I guess your scenario would be ok.
The whole financial system is corrupt nowadays, based on worthless fiat currency, and needs to be entirely revamped. You might wanna take a look at this video which will blow your mind if you are not already aware of the truths you are about to see !!
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&q=money+as+debt&total=1775&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
If so, how does sell one sell those shares in the market if one want to dispose of those shares? Aren't market demand/supply forces in effect which are what is really affecting the prices? I mean one can't help if the other person wants to buy something from you at a higher price than what the good is worth? And this is not only limited to the share market. I mean if I am willing to sell the share at Rs. 10 in a market but the next person is willing to buy it for Rs. 15, my guess is that the equilibrium price would be Rs. 15 at which both the buyer and seller would be happy to make the trade. How much value the buyer is attributing to the shares are his own prerogative, no matter how he calculates that value.
The problem, again, is that the stock price is not determined only by actual earnings and demand/supply forces, but also by pure speculation in the form of speculated P/E ratios, which forms a significant chunk of the stock price, and can adversely affect it even when the company makes a huge profit, as I explained earlier. If that speculation component is taken out, then I think it would be ok, but for that, the whole system needs to be revamped.
The steady rise in stock prices over years mentioned by Nun also has a speculation component, which can still cause the prices to artificially crash in case of an unforeseen failure to meet the expected/projected speculations, despite the company still making large profits. Just because stock prices are steadily rising over years does not necessarily mean they will continue to rise.
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Peace Sharp,
About intoxicants and gambling/games of chance. Personally, I wouldn't go beyond the explanation provided by the Quran about their nature, i.e. in them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit. In my view, the assumption that gambling and drugs have a similar high on human emotions seems subjective to me. Of course, one can further research out what are the harms and benefits of both and simply weigh them against each other. But I truly believe that we will reach the same truth that the Quran has provided.
http//www.videojug.com/interview/gambling-addiction
Yes, some people may be able to handle not drinking, gambling, and sexual advances along with credit card responsibly while many will fall if it?s flaunted at them daily. Best way to deal with temptation is avoidance ? Surah 12 comes to mind.
A system of enslavement which gains are due to playing on people?s emotions such as providing them ?the high? of gambling, sex, drugs, or even a new red convertible which they can?t afford although by stretching payments with interest telling them sure you can afford it ? only $500/month for next 7 years is ill-gotten exploitation and hence the system no different IMO than operating a casino.
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Peace Sharp,
http//www.videojug.com/interview/gambling-addiction
Yes, some people may be able to handle not drinking, gambling, and sexual advances along with credit card responsibly while many will fall if its flaunted at them daily. Best way to deal with temptation is avoidance Surah 12 comes to mind.
A system of enslavement which gains are due to playing on peoples emotions such as providing them the high of gambling, sex, drugs, or even a new red convertible which they cant afford although by stretching payments with interest telling them sure you can afford it only $500/month for next 7 years is ill-gotten exploitation and hence the system no different IMO than operating a casino.
Peace Sharp,
The problem is that the offer price itself is partly based on speculation. In an ideal society, in which the offer price is based purely on actual earnings, and the demand/supply forces, then I guess your scenario would be ok.
The whole financial system is corrupt nowadays, based on worthless fiat currency, and needs to be entirely revamped. You might wanna take a look at this video which will blow your mind if you are not already aware of the truths you are about to see !!
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&q=money+as+debt&total=1775&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
The problem, again, is that the stock price is not determined only by actual earnings and demand/supply forces, but also by pure speculation in the form of speculated P/E ratios, which forms a significant chunk of the stock price, and can adversely affect it even when the company makes a huge profit, as I explained earlier. If that speculation component is taken out, then I think it would be ok, but for that, the whole system needs to be revamped.
The steady rise in stock prices over years mentioned by Nun also has a speculation component, which can still cause the prices to artificially crash in case of an unforeseen failure to meet the expected/projected speculations, despite the company still making large profits. Just because stock prices are steadily rising over years does not necessarily mean they will continue to rise.
Tanveer, Nun de plume,
Thanks for your invaluable input regarding the matter of intoxicants, gambling/games of chance, trading in stock markets and credit card transactions. At some point, I suppose, the discussion about these subjects tended towards individual point of views. I respect your views on the said topics as a matter of personal preference. But to summarise, I think we all agree that the following are not approved by the Quran, no matter how we reach that conclusion
(1) Intoxicants and
(2) Gambling/games of chance.As for trading in shares and interest based transactions (including credit card transactions), as I said, each of us have developed our own point of views. I welcome and would be very grateful for any further input into these matters and the matter of "Bay`a" and "Tijara(t)" that I questioned about before.
Peace
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Peace Sharp,
From PRL at http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ba-Ya-Ayn =
Selling or buying
Exchanging or exchange of property
Gaining mastery over someone, superceding or occupying their place also by superior power or force
Making a covenant, an engagement, a contract (e.g. promising allegiance, swearing, oaths)
Hire or hiring of land
Sealing the deal, also striking together hand of two contracting parties in token of the ratification of sale
Manner of selling/buying
An article of merchandiseba'a vb. (1)
n.vb. 2254, 2275, 2275, 9111, 1431, 2437, 629biya n.f. (pl. of bi'ah) 2240
baya'a vb. (3)
perf. act. 9111
impf. act. 4810, 4810, 4818, 6012
impv. 6012tabaya'a vb. (6) perf. act. 2282
LL, V1, p 321, 322
= Ta-Jiim-Ra = to traffic/trade, be in business, commerce, merchandise, dealt, sold & bought, employed property for the purpose of gain.
tijarah n.f. 216, 2282, 429, 924, 2437, 3529, 6110, 6211, 6211
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 334, 335I have not undertaken a complete study on this, but one can study all the occurrences of these words in al-qur'aan as given above, to reach a better understanding.
Hope that helps.
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Peace Sharp,
From PRL at http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ba-Ya-Ayn =
Selling or buying
Exchanging or exchange of property
Gaining mastery over someone, superceding or occupying their place also by superior power or force
Making a covenant, an engagement, a contract (e.g. promising allegiance, swearing, oaths)
Hire or hiring of land
Sealing the deal, also striking together hand of two contracting parties in token of the ratification of sale
Manner of selling/buying
An article of merchandiseba'a vb. (1)
n.vb. 2254, 2275, 2275, 9111, 1431, 2437, 629biya n.f. (pl. of bi'ah) 2240
baya'a vb. (3)
perf. act. 9111
impf. act. 4810, 4810, 4818, 6012
impv. 6012tabaya'a vb. (6) perf. act. 2282
LL, V1, p 321, 322
= Ta-Jiim-Ra = to traffic/trade, be in business, commerce, merchandise, dealt, sold & bought, employed property for the purpose of gain.
tijarah n.f. 216, 2282, 429, 924, 2437, 3529, 6110, 6211, 6211
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 334, 335I have not undertaken a complete study on this, but one can study all the occurrences of these words in al-qur'aan as given above, to reach a better understanding.
Hope that helps.
Thanks, Tanveer. I agree this is going to take some research. But this is a good starting point.
Peace
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Selling or buying
Exchanging or exchange of property
Gaining mastery over someone, superceding or occupying their place also by superior power or force
Making a covenant, an engagement, a contract (e.g. promising allegiance, swearing, oaths)
Hire or hiring of land
Sealing the deal, also striking together hand of two contracting parties in token of the ratification of sale
Manner of selling/buying
An article of merchandiseFunny you should say that because all those remind me of
http//www.wisegorilla.com/images/african/Africa_satellite_plane.jpg
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Funny you should say that because all those remind me of
http//www.wisegorilla.com/images/african/Africa_satellite_plane.jpg
Brother OPF,
Funny you should say that, because what reminds you of
http//www.wisegorilla.com/images/african/Africa_satellite_plane.jpg
is the definition of the root of "Al-Bay`a" which Allah has permitted as opposed to "Al-Riba", in 2275. Also, what are your thoughts on this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.msg152484#msg152484
Peace
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Peace "tanveer" and all,
...even though the company made a huge profit for that quarter.
JK- Yes this maybe very true for small and/or new companies who open and close every now and then. Hence i suggest to only SHORT TERM invest in forex(foreign exchange; in particular on a change of interest on the main currecneies like USD, EUR, GBP and AUD). You almost always get the right direction immediately(ON INTEREST CHANGE IF AGAINST GENERAL EXPECTATIONS OR SURPRISE CHANGE) and significant leverage here allows you to make a 5% or more profit sometimes within minutes/hrs depending on the expectations of whether interest was toi be raised or not, and not risking more than 2% even if the market moves in the other direction. The danger with small companies is also THAT YOUR STOP LOSS ORDERS WOULD NOT BE HONOURED IN CASE OF A CRASH. Eg product share price at 1.45. You enter and place a SL at 1.43 which youve valvulated equals 2%. Suddenly overnight company collapses and the price rushes down to 1.2 per share. THERES NO TRADING AT ALL IN BETWEEN and although you set our stop at 1.43 your broker just ignored that coz theres no one on the other to trade. THIS IS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY WITH JOINT COMPANY STOCKS LIKE THE DAX, GOLD, SILVER and MAJOR CURRENCIES(forex) due to their high liquidity. Hence stick to those if you trade at all. GOD Bless!
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Brother OPF,
Funny you should say that, because what reminds you of
is the definition of the root of "Al-Bay`a" which Allah has permitted as opposed to "Al-Riba", in 2275. Also, what are your thoughts on this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.msg152484#msg152484
Peace
The specific one I boldened out is what I meant. In the quran that meaning is impossible with reference to "Al-Bay'a" because the quran doesn't sanction oppression or anything other than full measure. The quran also carries slightly more authority than Lane's Lexicon with regards to definitions of its words.
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The specific one I boldened out is what I meant. In the quran that meaning is impossible with reference to "Al-Bay'a" because the quran doesn't sanction oppression or anything other than full measure. The quran also carries slightly more authority than Lane's Lexicon with regards to definitions of its words.
Brother OPF,
It seems I owe you an apology again, on account of my misunderstanding of your post. I agree with your assertion that that particular definition doesn't complement the rest of the definitions.
Peace
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Another thing I thought of today
Trade includes buying something at ?X, and selling it at ?X+Y, i.e. adding ?Y, which would be your profit.
The above is Quranic to me because ?Y is a fixed addition/increase, i.e. it does not continuously grow.
In this thread, I suggested that "riba" does not include a fixed addition/increase. For example, A lends B ?100 and says in one year, return ?110. Even if a year lapses it cannot be increased, i.e. it can never go above ?110 (unlike compound interest today). If it cannot be repaid, it would be written off.
Note Of course, using fiat money in the first place is not right, so any scenario involving such money is not ideal.
Thoughts?
