Menstruating women praying and fasting
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SALAM,
I will point out that I personally believe that God uses arbitrary words like "eqta3oo" and "daraba" and "tahara" to test us! and see if we CAN understand the Quran as a whole and thematically by knowing His values. If not, then may as well amputate the theive's hand, hit our wives and forbid them from praying and fasting during the time of the month.
That is an ineresting insight. I agree that if we fail to see the overall purpose of the whole qur'an or of those parts that deal with any aspect of life we may be lost in nonentities.
Why are we looking at the word "tahara" and automatically thinking about cleanliness or baths????? that's obviously wrong!
Tahara is a state of being free of something/ get rid of something/ to be clear of something, whether it's being clear of evil thoughts (before you touch the Quran), or being clear of drunkenness, or being clear of homosexual intercourse (verse 782, verse 2756), being purified after sex or going to the toilet or whatever.
With this also I agree, and that is why I was insisting that it was unwarranted to take t-hh-r in any "ritualised sense". After, I don't know how long, the revelation of the qur'an scholars or canonic legislators may have come up with some ritualisation of the meaning of those original words, but when they come up in the qur'an there is no reason to attribute them but the inmediate meaning, and not a "legislated" meaning. So this much mentionned "tahhar" does not have to be in connection with any foreplay for salaat, but merely getting through a fisiological process which brought about restrictions in intercourse, and once finished, the restriction is over. That is why I insisted that the meaning of t-hh-r was not restricted to the pre salaat (ritual) purification. And Peace4life has shown one of the many instances of that that appear in the qur'an.
I thank everybody for their posts. I am sure that putting and dealing with questions in good faith and spirit helps us all, and we need to do this. Sometimes we get things clearer, some times we find problems where we didn't see any before. But all is for good, I think.
Salaam
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
. But if you read my previous post, you will know that I understand "tahara" as to take a full bath.
Brother , i can safely say, that your above assetion is wrong.
You become clean when taking a whole bath and washing yourself from head to toe using pure water just as if you were in a heavy rain. That is explain, through a parable in another ayat in Al Quran of which the Suran and ayat number slip my mind right now. You can find it by searching for all the ayaat in which words from the root of tahara are used. 443 does not explain "tahara", but explains "ghusl", which does not mean to take a full bath, but it means precisely what Allah has said it does in those two ayaat. The sunnis and shias call it "wudu", Al Quran calls it "ghusl".
Good point , i was wondering , that some where in Quran God has to tell us what he means by plane simple term "Ghusal" , and as you say it has been said in some ayah by making a parable, like being in a rain. Indeed Quran contains details of everything.
However in 5-6 Allah does not precisely explain what is "Ghusal ", but explains what all parts to cleans , and how , for wadu.
He says fa ghasilloo for face and arms , and gives precise limits , till where, and then says wamasahoo for two more parts.
How can you take the above details as explanation of Ghusal? Do you mean that this is how you take Ghusal when you are recommended to to perform that ???
when you say "Fa ghasillo" for certain parts, that means wash only those parts ,
When Tag tasillo (Ghusal), in general is used , That means full body bath, Ghusal is a very common word here and almost everybody understands it like that.
443 tells you to not come to As Salaat until you have made "ghusl", as you have quoted in "hatta taghtasilloo". But it didn't tell you how to make "ghusl". Then 56 tells you how to make "ghusl" (faaghsiloo) by washing your face, hands to the arm, etc.; the details of "ghusl", not "tahara". If you are going by the translations and not the Arabic, only then will you think that it is the other way around. There is no need to tell one exactly how to bath your whole body, just use clean water from head to toe. The rest will work itself out even if we all do it differently.
The red part of your statement is wrong,because you are forgetting that 4-43 is prohibiting salat in Janaba state , till one takes a full body bath.
In normal state, you are being told what all to do , and how? before every salat in 5-6, these details are for normal state(other than janaba) Not the details of Ghusal.
I spent quite some time analysing these two ayas Arabic in detail , and can safely say that your assertions are wrong.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaikum,
SALAM,
I will point out that I personally believe that God uses arbitrary words like "eqta3oo" and "daraba" and "tahara" to test us! and see if we CAN understand the Quran as a whole and thematically by knowing His values. If not, then may as well amputate the theive's hand, hit our wives and forbid them from praying and fasting during the time of the month.
I also believe that they are a test. To test to see if you will earnestly study the book and not try to get some rigid understanding of the book based only from a totally "literal" meaning or understanding. You have to study the context of the book and the connections of where Allah discusses issues and their relationships. That's why subject matter isn't all grouped together to make it too easy for those who would only use the message to make mischief.
Understanding how words are used in different places is definitely a key to correctly understanding the guidance of Al Quran, which is why this connection about "tahara" is being made in regards to women menstruating and not being obligated to perform As Salaat during this time.
I have noooo idea why we're talking about baths and showers. Back in prophet's days they didn't have baths and showers as we know them today anyway!!! But they did have water to wash.
I don't recall mentioning showers. Bathing is done by simply using water to clean your entire body from head to toe. I don't recall mentioning bath tubs or any specific way to take a bath other than using pure water from head to toe. I think I pointed this out to some extent as well. So Im not sure why you are making this point. Regardless of "how" they took baths back then, Im sure they had some process to "tahara" (bathe) themselves physically.
Why are we looking at the word "tahara" and automatically thinking about cleanliness or baths????? that's obviously wrong!
If you think that "tahara" never has anything to do with cleanliness or purifying with water, then you have missed the boat. No one is saying that the word, actually the words derived from it's root, can never mean anything else. But if you think cleanilness or baths are never implicated, then you need to study this word again from Al Quran, IMHO.
Tahara is a state of being free of something/ get rid of something/ to be clear of something, whether it's being clear of evil thoughts (before you touch the Quran), or being clear of drunkenness, or being clear of homosexual intercourse (verse 782, verse 2756), being purified after sex or going to the toilet or whatever.
Bathing gets rid of physical impurities, and this also has a spiritual effect for those conscious of it; to purify the mind and heart as well. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings. Most things in the physical affect us mentally and spiritually as well. Getting rid of something usually has a "physical" implication. To be clear of drunkedness means to physically leave off intoxicants....to be clear of homosexual intercourse means to physically leave off sex with the same genger, etc., etc.
As you investigate the Quran you see that the way you become clear of something (taher) is not always to 'wash' ... it can be "tayammum" as in the case of someone had sex and can't find water. Or as in verse 2222 (tahara) T-H-R appears twice.. the first means to get rid of something (menstruation), and the second means to avoid something (as in avoiding intercourse from where God said not to).
While this is true, "tayammun" can be used to purify yourself, this condition only exists if one CAN'T find any water. So what is the water used for? Could it be that this water being referred to is because you are to use it to bathe your whole body for this "tahara" mentioned? I think so. That should have been enough for you to get the correct picture. But maybe because you feel as some others do that women being given a mercy to not have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed", means some sort of violation of women's rights, then maybe this is causing you to not be able to see this simple fact clearly. Maybe you are associating the reference to women not being required to perform As Salaat during this time with "hadeeth" that say this means that her religion is defecient. Please understand that this is not what I believe or am prompting because Allah gives women a mercy to not have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed". Many women, maybe not you and Samia, have severe issues during this time and are not mentally, and sometimes physically, capable of performing As Salaat at this time even if it is the ardent desire. Allah knows the human being that He created well.
Also, ayat 222 didn't say when they were "finished" with "al maheed", it said when they are purified/cleansed (yathurna) and when they have purified/cleansed (tatahharna) themselves. Or are you erroneously suggesting that these words mean "finished" and "have finished themselves" in these ayaat?
Verse 2222 Wayasaloonaka AAani almaheedi qul huwa athan faiAAtaziloo alnnisaa fee almaheedi wala taqraboohunna hatta yathurna faitha tatahharna fatoohunna min haythu amarakumu Allahu inna Allaha yuhibbu alttawwabeena wayuhibbu almutatahhireena
both T-H-R above mean to be clear of something, but it's not necesseraly about baths. Below is another T-H-R word which has nothing to do with baths.
I don't or have never heard of women that don't "bathe and clean" themselves and their private areas after menses or post child birth bleeding. Maybe you do, I don't know. Do you think that once this bleeding stops that a woman is now purified or cleansed? Or are you still erroneously trying to insinuate that these words that derive from t-H-r mean some sort of "finish(ed)"? You said it is not necessarily about baths...can it be or can it not be about baths? It doesn't have to be about baths ALL the time, but if it is sometimes about baths; in which ayaat of Al Quran is it about baths if not these two ayat 56 and 2222?
355 Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona
355 Behold! Allah said "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and CLEAR thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
above, you see that the tahara is to be clear/rid of something.
Yes, so do you want to now limit all instances of the use of the word to this usage only? Study carefully this ayat if you will
811
{11}Transliteration Ith yughashsheekumu alnnuAAasa amanatan minhu wayunazzilu AAalaykum mina alssama-i maan liyutahhirakum bihi wayuthhiba AAankum rijza alshshaytani waliyarbita AAala quloobikum wayuthabbita bihi al-aqdama
Literal If/when the slumber/dozing/lethargy covers/comes upon you safety/security from Him, and He descends water on you from the sky to purify/clean you with it and eliminate/wipe off the devil's filth , and to bond/encourage on your hearts/minds and affirm/strengthen with it the feet.
Free-Minds Sleep overcame you from Him to give you peace; and He sent down to you water from the sky to cleanse you with it and cause the affliction of the devil to leave you; and so that He may strengthen your hearts and set firm your feet.
Rashad Khalifa He caused peaceful slumber to overtake you and pacify you, and He sent down water from the sky to clean you therewith. He protected you from the devil's curse, reassured your hearts and strengthened your foothold.
Yusuf Ali Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith.There is no indication that God forbids women from praying in that time of the month. This is just another one of Satan's tricks to keep us away from God like when people say you cant pray if you have cat hair on you, you cant pray if you have a dog, you cant pray if your hair is wet, women cant pray in pants, and the list goes on and on and on ...it's rediculous! makes you paranoid about your state of cleanliness instead of thinking about God, until you give up on God. Very smart Satan.
http//submission.org/women/hygiene.html
Allah indicates that if you are not in a state of "tahar", that you should not approach As Salaat. That doesn't mean that women can not make dua or pray to Allah that way. Doesn't stop a woman from reaching out to Allah. As Salaat is more than just prayer, it is ritual obedience to Allah, worship. It is for your benefit, not Allah's. So for Allah to give a mercy to relax the requirement for women during a difficult time, this is more in line with a merciful Allah that wants to impose no difficulty on His servants than what some may feel is something negative against women. Maybe you feel that women who just gave birth should also be required to perform As Salaat immediately afterwards if it is the time for As Salaat.
I don't think Satan would be so merciful to women. I do think that he tried to use this mercy from Allah to make men think that because women are not required to perform As Salaat at this time, that they therefore were "deficient" in their religion somehow. But that is Satan for you. He is sly and cunning. Maybe this part of Satan's cunningness is what is making you fight so hard against a mercy that Allah provided for women. I noticed that you and others that fight against this mercy like to continue to point out other restrictions against woman/etc. that are not being discussed from Al Quran so as to try to put them on the same level when there is nothing from Al Quran to warrant those discussions. It seems that you are being influenced heavily by your previous hadeeth experiences verses taking these ayaat at their own value without any previous hadeeth influence.
Allah gives many instance in Al Quran of when a restriction or obligation can be relaxed or changed. This is mercy from Allah to not impose difficulty on us. For the believer who has trusting faith in Allah, it is no way possibly takes him away from rememberance of Allah. On the contrary, it makes them remember Allah more that He has had mercy on us.
Trust me, we have read the article about how women are not told that they should not pray on their menses. That's why the article is being proven wrong from Al Quran only, not from outside sources.
So that is that.
Nex, if you argue that women are sick at that time so they shouldn't or don't have to pray, then why is it that in verse 443 if you are ill you can do tayammum and pray?????
That is that, maybe to you. But no one is forced to accept another opinion or understanding. But you have not made a valid argument that Allah didn't make this a mercy for women to relax the obligation of As Salaat when they are in a state where they can't be "tahar". Why does Allah even ask us at all to wash our hands, arms, head, feet, etc.? What does washing these areas have to do with remembering Allah, worshipping or obeying Him? Why such rituals if we are pure simply if our minds don't think bad thoughts?
All in all...do as you feel most comfortable with sister. I am sure that everyone else will as well. Allah is the one that knows best. No need to get upset because of our opinions and conclusions.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Bother IQO
salam
let me explain it to you one more time,
Tahara is purification. God says in 5-6 that you should do certain steps for purification before every salat.
So Tahara for salat is precisely told ( 4 steps). However if you cant find water then you may not tahara, but still can pray.
But when you have been under certain 4 conditions ( sick, been to toilet, touched women sexually or been travelling) and now if you don't have water to Tahara, you are not exempted for it, because the above conditions put you in a dirtier state , which do require some kinda Tahara, so he mentions a new tahara under these conditions which is , cleansing face and arms with clean dry soil.
But when you are in a state of janaba (sexual intercourse resulting into discharge of semen) It is the dirtiest possible state.
So God tells you "Tahara" for this state is neither wadu, nor dry ablution with clean soil, but Gusal, which is a complete body washing. The explanation of which you say is in some aya , and the parable is like , out side in the rain and your whole body is washed out.
The only exception from this kinda Tahara has been granted as a sub clause in 4-43 to Abri sablin" who is a traveller. The traveller if enters into a janaba estate and is unable to find water, he can do dry ablution and still pray, other wise 4-43 prohibits praying in all other situations till one is able to do the tahara recommended in this condition, which is "Ghusal' ( full body bath).
Brother 5-6 details so much, and takes care of every situation in a very logical manner , do you think God ran out of words? couldn't he spell out the menstruating women as the fifth category? or add it in 4-43 along with Janaba state?
Tahara in 2-222 is for sexual intercourse, and it has nothing to do with the three different kinda of Taharas for salat.
And that Tahara happens when the women's periods are over. So now she is automatically Tahar for the intercourse procedure.
peace
siki
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Why does Allah even ask us at all to wash our hands, arms, head, feet, etc.? What does washing these areas have to do with remembering Allah, worshipping or obeying Him? Why such rituals if we are pure simply if our minds don't think bad thoughts?
It may be looked into from another angle; the limitation of human mind to abruptly switch from one mood/state to another one absolutely different to the first one. One is working. His "RAM" is loaded with all the data he was working on. RAM has limited capacity. To start new project it is always better to "refresh" so that henceforth retrieved unnecessary data goes back to the hard disk. And RAM has extra capacity. This washing and cleaning process takes slowly to the new assignment one is going to undertake. When one is tired with mental work washing face with water refreshes the brain.
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Brother , i can safely say, that your above assetion is wrong.
Goood point , i was wondering , that some where in Quran God has to tell us what he means by plane simple term "Ghusal" , and as you say it has been said in some ayah by making a parable, like being in a rain. Indeed Quran contains details of everything.
Saying my assertion is wrong, doesn't automatically make it so dear brother. I have given the ayat that I was mentioning before in my previous post response to peace4life. And yes, I agree with you, Al Quran contains many details of things we need to understand by making parables/examples/connections/etc.
However in 5-6 Allah does not precisely explain what is Ghusal , but explains what all parts to cleans , and how , for wadu.
Wadu? Can you show me anywhere in Al Quran what is "wadu" and how to do it? What you are calling "wadu" is not what it is called in Al Quran. That is a sunni/shia name for this concept of washing before As Salaat. Allah calls it "ghusl".
As you will explain clearly below for me.."ghusl" means simply to "wash". What Allah describes in 56 is exactly what to wash for preparation before As Salaat. This makes the Quranic/Islamic "ghusl" to mean those things ONLY in regards to preparing for As Salaat. So this ayat in fact DOES explain what is "ghusl" for the deen of Al Islam.
He says fa ghasilloo for face and arms , and gives precise limits , till where, and then says wamasahoo for two more parts, when you say Fa ghasillo for certain parts, that means wash only those parts ,
Thank you for this clear explanation. This alone should have been enough for you to see it. The only reason I can think of as to why it doesn't suffice to make it clear for you is that you have preconceived notions about these concepts from something other than Al Quran.
But when Tag tasillo , in general is used , That means full body bath, Ghusal is a very common word here and almost everybody understands it like that
"Ghusl" is a very common word with the meaning you acert because of sunnism and shiaism, not because that is how Allah describes it in Al Quran. Many words have meanings relating to Islam and otherwise because of Islam that have no Quranic basis. That's why we choose to follow Al Quran only here. To correct this misconceptions and follow the clear guidance from Allah in Al Quran.
The red part of your statment is worng,because you are forgetting that 4-43 is prohibiting salat in Janaba state , till one takes a full body bath.
I understand your confusion here because of the use of "junuub". But if you try to understand the two ayat with 56 being a further explanation and clarification of 443, then maybe you will see the progression of the procedures as they were given.
In normal state, you are being told what all to do , and how? before every salat in 5-6, these details are for normal state(other than janaba) Not the details of Ghusal.
I understand how you are coming to your conclusions, but I think you are not considering the Quranic development of these concepts and are therefore missing what is being said. The term "ghusl" is throwing you off because you don't see the progression of how the instructions are being given from one point to the next. Pay attention to how Allah using "tahara" now in 56 for those that are in a state of "junuub".
I spent quite some time analysing these two ayas arabic in detail , and can safely say that your assertions are wrong.
siki
I would recommend spending some more time studying them from arabic and trying to understand the progression of what Allah is telling the believers from point to point. There is a reason that all of this information wasn't given one time, so at either ayat. The reason is probably that they two ayat were revealed at different times during the progression of the muslim community and their growth. Just as many requirements were not immediately put upon all the followers at once, so did many other concepts evolve and develope as Allah saw fit to implement them for the believers. This concept of preparation for As Salaat is one of those evolving concepts.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Bother IQO
salam
let me explain it to you one more time,
Tahara is purification. God says in 5-6 that you should do certain steps for purification before every salat.
So Tahara for salat is precisely told ( 4 steps). However if you cant find water then you may not tahara, but still can pray.
What is purification? How do you become purified of anything? The steps described as "ghusl" in 56 are not describing the mentioning of the words derived from "tahara" in this same ayat. The four "conditions" that you mention necessitate "tahara" are not always limited to the definitions that you have given, i.e. junuub meaning only sexual intercourse. Allah didn't mention that if you fall into an oil spill and are covered with oil that you need to take a full bath either, but I would suppose that you would conclude that it would be best. The same would go for other conditions such as performing surgery on someone, being covered in blood or someone elses blood or animal blood; and I could go on and on. The concept is purification/cleaning, not just that sex is dirty.
Tahara is the "process" of cleaning/purification that is "done" by taking a full bath, or if you can find no water, then rubbing the face and hands with clean earth.
So the lesson learned from this is that it is best to perform "tahara" (cleaning/purification) with clean water, but if you have no water, you AT LEAST have to perform "tahara" with clean earth. If you can not perform "tahara" at least in one of these two ways, then As Salaat is not recommended to say the least. No permission is given to perform As Salaat after being in a state necessitating "tahara", if you have neither clean water or clean earth. Yet restriction is place on performing As Salaat until you can perform "tahara" in one of the two ways mentioned, one being preferenced over the other (washing with clean water being primary).
To say that you don't have to be "tahara" in order to perform As Salaat is incorrect.
But when you have been under certain 4 conditions ( sick, been to toilet, touched women sexually or been travelling) and now if you don't have water to Tahara, you are not exempted for it, because the above conditions put you in a dirtier state , which do require some kinda Tahara, so he mentions a new tahara under these conditions which is , cleansing face and arms with clean dry soil.
Exactly, you still have to perform "tahara" in order to perform As Salaat. ONLY, and only if you DON"T have water, then you may use clean earth to wash the face and hands/arms. But this is still "tahara", cleaning/purifying; just the mercy of Allah is making the deen easy for you if you don't have water.
What you don't see is another statement in this ayat or any other, stating that if you find neither clean water nor clean earth, that you are just to perform As Salaat anyway. (Of course where can you be on earth where there is no water or earth? Well, I guess there may be some place where you can not find "clean" water or "clean" earth...Allahu Alim.)
But when you are in a state of janaba (sexual intercourse resulting into discharge of semen) It is the dirtiest possible state.
When did sex become the dirtiest state possible? I can think of plenty of filth that would be dirtier than sex. I don't understand this concept of the semen that gives life being something filty and dirty. Allah telling us to clean before performing As Salaat does not make this filthy say like rolling in pig slop or manure. Do you think women's menses are cleaner than men's semen also? (just curious, both are natural excretions to me, but with some differences)
So God tells you "Tahara" for this state is neither wadu, nor dry ablution with clean soil, but Gusal, which is a complete body washing. The explanation of which you say is in some aya , and the parable is like , out side in the rain and your whole body is washed out.
If I were to accept your definition of "ghusl", then how does one completely "body wash" their face? I think you see the logical argument here. The concept that I gave you from Al Quran for "tahara" would be what is a full body wash.
The only exception from this kinda Tahara has been granted as a sub clause in 4-43 to Abri sablin" who is a traveller. The traveller if enters into a janaba estate and is unable to find water, he can do dry ablution and still pray, other wise 4-43 prohibits praying in all other situations till one is able to do the tahara recommended in this condition, which is "Ghusal' ( full body bath).
You do have a point in that Allah prohibits praying for one who is unable to perform "tahara" in one of the two ways prescribed; preferably and foremost with clean water, or if no clean water is available then with clean earth.
One thing about performing "tahara" (purification/cleanliness) is that the state causing the necessity for it MUST BE OVER OR COMPLETED! You can't perform "tahara" if you are still in the middle of sexual intercourse, for example. Likewise, a woman can not perform "tahara" during her menses, they must be completed first before you can perform "tahara". I hope this adds some insight or clarification about the issues.
Brother 5-6 details so much, and takes care of every situation in a very logical manner , do you think God ran out of words? couldn't he spell out the menstruating women as the fifth category? or add it in 4-43 along with Janaba state?
I dont think that Allah ever or will ever run out of words. Do you think he put different subject matter spread throughout Al Quran by accident or so that we would study the whole of it? Many items of Al Quran are not "spelled out" as you have indicated here, but they are still contained in Al Quran and are clear and detailed, or become that way for those who study the book with earnestness and sincerity, as Allah wills.
This is a common strategy for those who don't want to see "insight" in Al Quran to state "Do you think Allah ran out of words?" My question to you is do you think that Allah gave parables/example/etc. for no reason?..or for us to ponder on so that we may come to understand?
Tahara in 2-222 is for sexual intercourse, and it has nothing to do with the three different kinda of Taharas for salat.
Tahara in 2222 establishes another condition that is a condition in a state of non-"tahara", i.e. necessitating "tahara". If Allah gave any other condition that necessitated "tahara", I would also conclude that to perform As Salaat during that condition mentioned would be prohibited until you can perform "tahara" in one of the two ways prescribed. I am not partial to this prohibition because it is for women, it really has no affect on the issue itself to me. It is as Allah has made it, not according to my own desires.
And that Tahara happens when the women's periods are over. So now she is automatically Tahar for the intercourse procedure.
peace
siki
How is a woman purified/cleansed just because her menses or post partum bleeding has finished? Are you suggesting that just finishing something means that you are now "tahara"? If that were that case, wouldn't one also be "tahara" when they have "finished" sexual intercourse? I think this should cover that point clearly. After "al maHeed", women need to take a full bath, which would include cleaning their private area, as a condition to fulfill "tahara"; unless they could find no clean water in which case they would do the second prescribed method before performing As Salaat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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While this is true, "tayammun" can be used to purify yourself, this condition only exists if one CAN'T find any water. So what is the water used for? Could it be that this water being referred to is because you are to use it to bathe your whole body for this "tahara" mentioned? I think so. That should have been enough for you to get the correct picture. But maybe because you feel as some others do that women being given a mercy to not have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed", means some sort of violation of women's rights, then maybe this is causing you to not be able to see this simple fact clearly. Maybe you are associating the reference to women not being required to perform As Salaat during this time with "hadeeth" that say this means that her religion is defecient. Please understand that this is not what I believe or am prompting because Allah gives women a mercy to not have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed". Many women, maybe not you and Samia, have severe issues during this time and are not mentally, and sometimes physically, capable of performing As Salaat at this time even if it is the ardent desire. Allah knows the human being that He created well.
When you say that it is a mercy, your are still asserting that women are not allowed salaat while in their menses. I mean, you are not saying that it is left to their own discretion to do or not do salaat, in which case, and if indeed I were to admit your argument, I could see that mercy. If you feel awfully, ok you skip it and that is it, but in fact what you are saying is that no matter how much you want to do salaat and no matter how much you need it, you are not allowed to do it.
I point this out, because at times it seems as if you were saying that it is left to the woman's discretion. You might clear up if this is so or in effect you are saying that no matter what there is no salaat for women while in their menses.
Salaam
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As Salaamu Alaika huruf,
When you say that it is a mercy, your are still asserting that women are not allowed salaat while in their menses. I mean, you are not saying that it is left to their own discretion to do or not do salaat, in which case, and if indeed I were to admit your argument, I could see that mercy. If you feel awfully, ok you skip it and that is it, but in fact what you are saying is that no matter how much you want to do salaat and no matter how much you need it, you are not allowed to do it.
I point this out, because at times it seems as if you were saying that it is left to the woman's discretion. You might clear up if this is so or in effect you are saying that no matter what there is no salaat for women while in their menses.
Salaam
Thanks for your comments and I understand your question I think. What I mean by it being a mercy is that Allah knows how He created the woman and that it is best for them to not perform As Salaat during this time; not for Him since He is not affected if He released them from the "obligation" to have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed". Surely many women could pray during this time if they choose to do so, I mean physically. But so could any married person do the same after intercourse if they choose to. Just because you want to perform As Salaat, Allah gives you conditions in which to approach this act of worship.
I don't think that it is left to the discretion of a woman to choose. To me Allah clearly indicates that it is a state necessitating "tahara", and because of this, approaching As Salaat would be incorrect. That being said, neither do I think that it is something that Allah would consider as "haram", and that is why it is not called as such and maybe given in the manner that it is in Al Quran. To pray during this time might not be accepted by Allah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it also would constitute a "sin"; most probably just something ignored or frowned upon by Allah. Allah knows best of course. But Allah recommends against many things in Al Quran without specifically calling them "haram". This is a part of following the guidance of Allah instead of just staying away from what is prohibited clearly as haram. One can stay away from "haram", but still not follow all of the guidance that is given by Allah. I hope that makes sense.
So while I am saying that there is no salaat for women during menses, I also believe that if a woman still does it, she is just not following the best guidance; not necessarily commiting a sin that could lead to hellfire. To not accept the mercy given to you by Allah is a violation of accepting guidance, not necessarily a sin. Again, Allah knows best.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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IQO
Brother salam
lets have a debate on 5-6 and 4-43.
5-6.O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful
Ya aioo allzina amnoo iza kumtum wasalate, Fa ghasilloo. wojoohokum wa aidekum illal mafaraqe,
oh you who believe when you want to pray, then wash, your faces, and your arms till elbows,
wa masahoo beroosakum wa arjolakum illal kabeienna, wa in kuntum junabaon fa tahroo.
and wipe your heads, and your feet till ankles, and if you are junabon then cleans your self,
First lets see what these two lines are saying,
oh belivers when you want to salat then you should perform the following,
wash your faces and your arms till elbows and wipe your heads and your feet till ankles. Any confusion ? no i dont think so.
The above means when ever we have to salat we should be doing the above before salat. (Note there is no Taharoo here)
Now the next clause comes, wa in kuntum junaboon fa tharoo,
Now Tahroo comes, Tahorroo is required for the state which is junaboon, what is this state ? we leave at this for the time being , and will sort out later, but one thing is sure that This Tahroo is required for the state of junanba.
Now if you are with me till this i will proceed further in next post
siki
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to continue,
Wa in kuntum ila marzee, oo alla safreen, oo jaan ahdun minkum minal ghaiteen, oo lamastumum nissaun, falam tajidoo maa un, fa tayyama mmo saeedan tayyaben , famassahoo be wojoohkum wa aidekum
and if you have been ill or travelling or you been to a place of relieving, or you have touched the women, and if you dont find water then take pure clean soil and rub your faces and your arms,
God has already recommended that before salat one should do 4 steps with water as told earlier,
lets say that there is no water available to carry out the above 4 steps , what should we do? pray or not ,?
I think we should still pray without doing any thing, because the dry soil cleansing is only required in the above 4 conditions ,which are spelled out in detail.
If one is sick or travelling or been to toilet or touched women , then God wants us to still carry out some kind of cleansing/purification ,because now we are in a relatively dirtier state.Because when we are sick we are dirtier than normal conditions due germs, when we travel, we are out on the road we are exposed, and hence are comparatively dirtier than the normal routine, when we go to toilet or touch the women , we again go into a state which is comparatively dirtier than normal.
That means if we don't have water and if we have not been through those mentioned 4 situations then we can pray without doing any thing.
siki
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wa alaika as salaam siki brother,
IQO
Brother salam
lets have a debate on 5-6 and 4-43.
5-6.O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful
Ya aioo allzina amnoo iza kumtum wasalate, Fa ghasilloo. wojoohokum wa aidekum illal mafaraqe,
oh you who believe when you want to pray, then wash, your faces, and your arms till elbows,
wa masahoo beroosakum wa arjolakum illal kabeienna, wa in kuntum junabaon fa tahroo.
and wipe your heads, and your feet till ankles, and if you are junabon then cleans your self,
First lets see what these two lines are saying,
oh belivers when you want to salat then you should perform the following,
wash your faces and your arms till elbows and wipe your heads and your feet till ankles. Any confusion ? no i dont think so.
The above means when ever we have to salat we should be doing the above before salat. (Note there is no Taharoo here)
Now the next clause comes, wa in kuntum junaboon fa tharoo,
Now Tahroo comes, Tahorroo is required for the state which is junaboon, what is this state ? we leave at this for the time being , and will sort out later, but one thing is sure that This Tahroo is required for the state of junanba.
Now if you are with me till this i will proceed further in next post
siki
Faghasiloo, so "wash". What to wash? Your whole body? No, because "ghusl" in Al Quran doesn't mean to take a whole bath! This ayat should have proved that to you because Allah is telling you EXACTLY what He wants you to wash before preparing for every Salaat. There is no "tahara" at that point because we are not required to take a "full bath" before every salaat. How are you missing that "faghasiloo" is describing what is "ghusl"?
And agreed that "tahara" from the moment 56 was revealed now means that it is required for any state which is considered "junuub".
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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salaams again brother,
To continue
to continue,
Wa in kuntum ila marzee, oo alla safreen, oo jaan ahdun minkum minal ghaiteen, oo lamastumum nissaun, falam tajidoo maa un, fa tayyama mmo saeedan tayyaben , famassahoo be wojoohkum wa aidekum
and if you have been ill or travelling or you been to a place of relieving, or you have touched the women, and if you dont find water then take pure clean soil and rub your faces and your arms,
God has already recommended that before salat one should do 4 steps with water as told earlier,
lets say that there is no water available to carry out the above 4 steps , what should we do? pray or not ,?
I think we should still pray without doing any thing, because the dry soil cleansing is only required in the above 4 conditions ,which are spelled out in detail.
If one is sick or travelling or been to toilet or touched women , then God wants us to still carry out some kind of cleansing/purification ,because now we are in a relatively dirtier state.Because when we are sick we are dirtier than normal conditions due germs, when we travel, we are out on the road we are exposed, and hence are comparatively dirtier than the normal routine, when we go to toilet or touch the women , we again go into a state which is comparatively dirtier than normal.
That means if we don't have water and if we have not been through those mentioned 4 situations then we can pray without doing any thing.
siki
I dont agree with your conclusion that if we find no water that we should then pray without doing anything. I think the principle laid down is that if we can't take a full bath, then to use clean earth to clean our face and arms; would also suffice if we have no water to make "ghusl". To go to the extreme and just say that since you have no water you don't have to wash or do anything before prayer is to assume a lot when you already have a principle being given in Al Quran for a situation where no water is availabe. Considering also that using clean earth to rub the face and arms with is more similar to the "ghusl" preparation, it would be more logical to use this method for "ghusl" also if there is no water available at all, IMHO.
So I definitely can not agree with your premise here that I have highlighted in red siki.
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Now we are left with , wa in kuntum junaboon fa thahroo,
A state known as junaba requires Tahhroo?
what is this state of junnaba?
and what procedure is required to become Tahar which would enable us to perform salat?
i will continue tomorrow
peace
siki
I think you ask some good questions here. But I dont think you will get your answers from the "ghusl" in 443. You are still maybe not considering and/or reflecting on the implications that 443 was most likely revealed before 56; and what that will mean for the evolving definitions and conditions surrounding this issue. But we can continue tomorrow if you like, Allah willing.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace,
Oh My God, what a mess, you are all so fixed with physically stuff, have you forgot about the most important part of being a follower of the mighty power?
Tahara is not only to be clean at body but also in your mind, if you have filthy thoughts hmm how then can you reach your goals if your goals in general terms are not filthy!?
I guess a reminder for all to uphold the balance between your body and soul. Our body is only the host for our valuable soul.
Maria
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As Salaamu alaika SwedenMajidah,
Peace,
Oh My God, what a mess, you are all so fixed with physically stuff, have you forgot about the most important part of being a follower of the mighty power?
Tahara is not only to be clean at body but also in your mind, if you have filthy thoughts hmm how then can you reach your goals if your goals in general terms are not filthy!?
I guess a reminder for all to uphold the balance between your body and soul. Our body is only the host for our valuable soul.
Maria
I don't think that any of us discussing this issue would disagree with you that the spiritual and mental aspect of "tahara" are the most important. We are discussing the relevant issues around it's physical implications also. I dont think that you think yourself as a human is only mental and spiritual. Surely you can't ignore your physical aspect. Im sure you have to eat, sleep, go to the bathroom, have menses if you haven't pasted that age, etc. So we are not saying that the physical is more important than the spiritual or mental, but only discussing what Allah is telling us or not telling us from the ayaat of Al Quran.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salam,
Well, I did say that we should uphold a balance between our body and soul and that speaks for itself.
I don't want to change the subject or go off topic, but menstruating women who prays depends how you perform your salat.
Muslims who perform their salat in a ritual and physically way may think that women who have their menses are not clean and cannot pray.But muslims who consider their salat to be of spiritual way may think that menses are not a reason to feel unclean in your thoughts.
So it all depends how you feel, and how you understand it.
And the main reasons why menstruations are mention in Quran is to protect the women, because we know that there is another verse that says that the husband can approach his wife as often as he pleases but this is an exception from that statement. A woman can be harmed and more easy infected when she has her menses. But to state that she is unclean in her mind and cannot pray to God is a big assumption.
Maria
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As Salaamu Alaika huruf,
Thanks for your comments and I understand your question I think. What I mean by it being a mercy is that Allah knows how He created the woman and that it is best for them to not perform As Salaat during this time; not for Him since He is not affected if He released them from the "obligation" to have to perform As Salaat during "al maHeed". Surely many women could pray during this time if they choose to do so, I mean physically. But so could any married person do the same after intercourse if they choose to. Just because you want to perform As Salaat, Allah gives you conditions in which to approach this act of worship.
I don't think that it is left to the discretion of a woman to choose. To me Allah clearly indicates that it is a state necessitating "tahara", and because of this, approaching As Salaat would be incorrect. That being said, neither do I think that it is something that Allah would consider as "haram", and that is why it is not called as such and maybe given in the manner that it is in Al Quran. To pray during this time might not be accepted by Allah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it also would constitute a "sin"; most probably just something ignored or frowned upon by Allah. Allah knows best of course. But Allah recommends against many things in Al Quran without specifically calling them "haram". This is a part of following the guidance of Allah instead of just staying away from what is prohibited clearly as haram. One can stay away from "haram", but still not follow all of the guidance that is given by Allah. I hope that makes sense.
So while I am saying that there is no salaat for women during menses, I also believe that if a woman still does it, she is just not following the best guidance; not necessarily commiting a sin that could lead to hellfire. To not accept the mercy given to you by Allah is a violation of accepting guidance, not necessarily a sin. Again, Allah knows best.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
So what you mean is that the woman cannot choose to pray salaat or not to pray salaar. In other messages i found that you did not make your thought clear on that.
Still, I haven't seen any valid indication that the qur'an even remotely establishes any connection whatsoever between menses and salaat, be it for one reason or other. No connection. I would have to do a lot of violence to my reasoning and even then I would still be bluffed as to how someone may come to such conclusions. Not that I have great passion one way or the other, it is simply that the connection is established on assumptions for which I can't see any proof or reason. Add to that that I definitely find that if God didn't want women to do salaat a number of few days every month, He would have stated it without playing guesswhats, which if indulged can only lead to get out of the qur'an whatever whim we may happen to have.
There is also in one of your messages something that has shocked me and it is where you say something about God accepting or not the salaat when done while menstruating. It is not your fault, it is my sensibility, but I have never been able to hear that kind of expression "God will not accept this, God will not accept that, or God may or may no accept whatever" without feeling the utmost shock. How dare any human even speculate about what our Creator and knower may or may not accept? Has anybody signed any priviledged information pact with HIM, or got some private channel where God has no secrets for him or her or has anybody managed to make Dhul jalala walikram to his own size as if He was some cashier or other checking means of payment and not our maker and planner that knows us better than ourselves and has known us forever? What "accept" is this?
I have believed for many years this thing about menses precluding salaat. I just took people's word and explanations for it and although it has always intrigued me, it has not bothered me beyond measure. Recently, when I have seen it questioned I have looked at it attentively and I find that this widespread assumption springs in fact out of nothing, only from the stubborness that menses must be accompanied by some kind of folklore, and what better folklore than what we can pick from the judaic tradition, where it seems that menses are duly milked. And now that we talk about milking, had women's milk represented some hindrance for intercourse, who knows but that we might be saying that women cannot do salaat as long as they aren't purified, t-hh-r, of milk secretions. And I trust that by putting some milk in the matter I will not be opening a long thread on de difference between milk and blood, because then I would feel forever guilty of torture against my fellow forumers.
Salaam
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Salam,
Well, I did say that we should uphold a balance between our body and soul and that speaks for itself.
I don't want to change the subject or go off topic, but menstruating women who prays depends how you perform your salat.
Muslims who perform their salat in a ritual and physically way may think that women who have their menses are not clean and cannot pray.But muslims who consider their salat to be of spiritual way may think that menses are not a reason to feel unclean in your thoughts.
So it all depends how you feel, and how you understand it.
And the main reasons why menstruations are mention in Quran is to protect the women, because we know that there is another verse that says that the husband can approach his wife as often as he pleases but this is an exception from that statement. A woman can be harmed and more easy infected when she has her menses. But to state that she is unclean in her mind and cannot pray to God is a big assumption.
Maria
If you read all of my posts, you will know that I don't believe that women can't reach out to Allah and make "dua" (prayer) to Allah in their minds and spirit during their menses. But I don't consider these acts alone as As Salaat. I don't think that "al maHeed" constitute a woman being impure in here thoughts, just physically not "tahur" for approaching As Salaat. Allah makes it clear that certain PHYSICAL CONDITIONS warrant a reason to not appoach As Salaat. None of those conditions mean that anyone is impure in their thoughts, yet Allah still tells everyone, not just women, to not approach As Salaat until they have physically cleansed themselves in some way. This cleansing is physical for sure, although it most certainly will contain mental and spiritual connotations about it.
If you think As Salaat is only mental meditation or something of this sort limited to mental thoughts only and not a physical ritual designed to preserve the guidance, then you should just ignore everything I am saying in this thread as none of it will make any sense to you dear sister.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace