Focal Point
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane brother,
Your welcome and thanks likewise. And AGREED, lets not get off topic here. ) Another new or previous thread. But they are related since qibla has for so long been associated with As Salaat. This theory that you mention has implications for it's use in regards to As Salaat.
Peace Dear ImamQuranonly,
Thanks for your kind reply dear brother.
I think I can find/remember your ritual salat thread, perhaps we can discuss it there (when I have more time...). Let's not get off-topic here.
Peace.
May God Guide.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace Zidane,
-*** Now, in 2142 shows that some people in this ongoing debate came to ask what made the believers change their ***gathering place/qibla from what they were on. That is, why the believers come to gather here at this temple which the people of the scripture forbade? The reason is shown from the context that they come here because they want to go to re-use the temple where God entrusted Abraham to set up.
In 2142, the foolish people ask "what made them turn away from the "qibla" that they were on", not "what made them turn to this or that shrine". Reading intelligently the response of the messenger, we can know what the true "qibla" is. He responds "to the god belongs the east and the west, he guides whom he wills to a straight path".
We can empirically verify the truth in 2142. Go to any Mosque (facing Mekka) or Jewish temple (facing Jerusalem) or old Christian Church (facing the winter sunrise). While everyone is praying in their direction, "turn away" and face a random direction. You will certainly be asked by people there something equivalent to "what made you turn away from the "qibla" that you were on?". The only congregational place where you will not be asked this question is a place where people already know that the god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west) and that being on the "straight path" has nothing to do with any physical direction. Try this experiment to empirically verify the truth that, whether it is Mekka, Jerusalem or the sun, people who make it a point to face those things are foolish people.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Zidane,
In 2142, the foolish people ask "what made them turn away from the "qibla" that they were on", not "what made them turn to this or that shrine". Reading intelligently the response of the messenger, we can know what the true "qibla" is. He responds "to the god belongs the east and the west, he guides whom he wills to a straight path".
We can empirically verify the truth in 2142. Go to any Mosque (facing Mekka) or Jewish temple (facing Jerusalem) or old Christian Church (facing the winter sunrise). While everyone is praying in their direction, "turn away" and face a random direction. You will certainly be asked by people there something equivalent to "what made you turn away from the "qibla" that you were on?". The only congregational place where you will not be asked this question is a place where people already know that the god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west) and that being on the "straight path" has nothing to do with any physical direction. Try this experiment to empirically verify the truth that, whether it is Mekka, Jerusalem or the sun, people who make it a point to face those things are foolish people.Peace,
Ayman
Very important assertion ,(red part), Good post
siki
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Peace dear Dr ayman & siki,
Thanks for your suggestions & details, very interesting - I'll try to think about it more.
My question was that could "qibla" mean "gathering point"?
(Because it seems to go in harmony with the context from what I read (with my little knowledge...) as described in the post.)
The prophet and the believers with him needed a physical place to gather... Then, after seeing the revelation about the objective of Abraham's temple in 2125 - for people who visit and want to learn/remember humbly/sincerely about God alone monotheism - that was then boycott as in 2114, they wanted to set things straight (and showed in eagerness as in 2144...) Yes, like in the long post/theory above.
For me, it seems to go well with 1087 too...
In my post, I didn't mean that the "qibla" is used as a "direction" to "face to", so I find your reply - dear Dr Ayman - irrelevant to the theory I posted. (Please pardon me if I am too ignorant or too little in intelligence - please be patient and explain to me again.)
The "turn away", for me is the same as abandon/boycott as in 2114
Peace.
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Peace Zidane,
My question was that could "qibla" mean "gathering point"?
(Because it seems to go in harmony with the context from what I read (with my little knowledge...) as described in the post.)
The prophet and the believers with him needed a physical place to gather... Then, after seeing the revelation about the objective of Abraham's temple in 2125 - for people who visit and want to learn/remember humbly/sincerely about God alone monotheism - that was then boycott as in 2114, they wanted to set things straight (and showed in eagerness as in 2144...) Yes, like in the long post/theory above.
For me, it seems to go well with 1087 too...
In my post, I didn't mean that the "qibla" is used as a "direction" to "face to", so I find your reply - dear Dr Ayman - irrelevant to the theory I posted. (Please pardon me if I am too ignorant or too little in intelligence - please be patient and explain to me again.)
The "turn away", for me is the same as abandon/boycott as in 2114I think that in 2144, it sounds like the "qibla"/target/destination is something that we are directed to "face" (literally Arabic "wagh" means "face". I am open to better interpretations but so far it doesn't make any more sense to "gather" in some place "wherever we are" than it does to "face" some place "wherever we are".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace dear Dr Ayman,
Thanks very much for your views.
Yes, it doesn't make any sense to "gather" in a place "wherever they are". I didn't mean that "wagh" means "gather" nor "face". I meant that it means "target" to go to the "gathering place"/qibla.
I meant that, wherever they are ("you" in 2144, for me, refers to the prophet and the believers with him, NOT us - according to the context), they should "wagh"/target to go there to gather and use the place Abraham has set to meet its objective as revealed.
Even though there were chased out ("go out", they should "wagh"/target to come back to use/liberate this restricted temple - this leads to the war that was then to happen - to chase the oppressors out of where they chased them (prophet and believers) out. (And probably the Crusades later... Salahuddin, etc... up to now... to liberate the "restricted temple" right there in Jerusalem. I really like your article that shows that "makka" means destruction...)
I meant that, could the "qibla" (the restricted temple - the original one Abraham has set) mean the "gathering place" that the believers were decreed to use and establish? They should "target" to gather there at the restricted temple.
Same as in 1087, the people were to use their homes as their "gathering point" for (preparing, before) their exodus out of Egypt.
Peace.
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Qibla as focal point is perfect as a description, gathering or facing comes under the act of focusing.
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As Salaamu Alaika Zidane brother,
Your welcome and thanks likewise. And AGREED, lets not get off topic here. ) Another new or previous thread. But they are related since qibla has for so long been associated with As Salaat. This theory that you mention has implications for it's use in regards to As Salaat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peacePeace,
Yes, qibla(direction) and salaat(reaching out) is very much related. But then again we differ in our understanding of how in which way they are related.
In my understanding both qibla and salaat isn't any physically terms. We shall direct our salat to masjid al haram( the truth from our lord) and Jerusalem the actually meaning of that name is state of peace(correct me if I'm wrong).
So if we add all those aspects we are asked from Quran to always turn to masjid al haram(the truth from our lord) where ever we are.
When we perform salat(reaching out) we wish and ask for things in our lives and we also are grateful for what we have already. So to reaching out is something we do for our own good. God doesn't need our reaching out but the reaching out is an echo or changing of energy.
For me all those famous places as, Makka in SA and Al Aqsa in Jerusalem etc has no status or meaning for my faith in God and reaching out to him.
If I ever want to visit these places it would be for the sake that they have been famous not for any religious purpose.Maria
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Dear Maria,
The theory that you stated sounds very nice to us and yes, that's the truth to turn to God's truth for success.
I would like to point out, however, that those verses are not talking to us - same as 1087 is not talking to us.
Yes, I'd try to research more about the theory about "masjid" not being a physical place. As for now, I'd just like to remind us all that the prophet and his believers, and us, we all need physical places to gather,learn,teach & live our lives - and please remember that the wars that happen in the quran were probably physical and should have taken a physical place to happen.
As for me, I see salat means "bond" (to God - to follow his commandments closely) and this is not the same for all people - so I wouldn't say that "salat" relates to "their homes (in Egypt)" or "the masjidal haram" for everyone.
God's laws (that we're bonded to follow) has both physical parts (NOT the ritual...) like physically speaking in a kind way to parents, helping the poor, orphans, (taking action in doing good,) etc... AND mental parts like glorifying him morning and evening, not setting up anything with him, etc.
From the context, those chapter 2 verses mentioned in the "theory" I posted are bonds/decrees to the prophet and his believers, same as 1087 is to Moses and his people. So the relation of salat to "qibla" is dependent on the different people God decreed laws to.
Yes, it's good to not set anything inbetween in our reaching out to God connect (tell/praise/ask etc...) with God directly.
Peace.
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Peace Br Zidane,
I agree that gathering is a good thing and we can gather for different occasions. Of course there are both physically and spiritually things mentioned in Quran. And in matter of fact that we have both a body and soul we shall treat ourselves in a good way for our own best and to be a good example for eachother and that is Quran excellent to guide us in.
But the main message from God has been the same from the very beginning, I think there is a verse which also states that.
The people of Moses and The people of Mohammad are examples for us and even if they lived during totally different times on earth their goal was the same. To uphold the law from God. To be grateful. And it was a very big challenge for them to be grateful and there are many examples of that in Quran especially about the people of Moses how stubborn and ungrateful they were even if they got saved from the tyranni of Pharao. They complained about the food and they took the golden calf as an idol etc.
The people of Mohammad were difficult to teach and they only liked to drink liquor and enjoy themselves with harem girls. The rich had difficult to accept that poor was to take care of and that they had to give of their wealth.They accused the prophet and weren't grateful even if he showed alot of patience trough difficult times to others so they could learn something out of it.
Much of the message is about being grateful and the benefits from it and the opposite of not being grateful. So the message of being grateful and being in a state of peace leads to happiness.
Maria
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The people of Mohammad were difficult to teach and they only liked to drink liquor and enjoy themselves with harem girls. The rich had difficult to accept that poor was to take care of and that they had to give of their wealth.They accused the prophet and weren't grateful even if he showed alot of patience trough difficult times to others so they could learn something out of it.
So in other words, they were just normal people as we have today? Or are the "people of Mohammad" different with different brains, reasoning and thinking?
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As Salaamu Alaikum,
Peace,
Yes, qibla(direction) and salaat(reaching out) is very much related. But then again we differ in our understanding of how in which way they are related.
In my understanding both qibla and salaat isn't any physically terms. We shall direct our salat to masjid al haram( the truth from our lord) and Jerusalem the actually meaning of that name is state of peace(correct me if I'm wrong).
So if we add all those aspects we are asked from Quran to always turn to masjid al haram(the truth from our lord) where ever we are.
When we perform salat(reaching out) we wish and ask for things in our lives and we also are grateful for what we have already. So to reaching out is something we do for our own good. God doesn't need our reaching out but the reaching out is an echo or changing of energy.
For me all those famous places as, Makka in SA and Al Aqsa in Jerusalem etc has no status or meaning for my faith in God and reaching out to him.
If I ever want to visit these places it would be for the sake that they have been famous not for any religious purpose.Maria
It amazing me at the extent that people will go to define As Salaat as something or anything other than having a physical performance. Reaching out, bond, etc. are "parts" of As Salaat, true. But when you ignore the numerous ayaat that clearly denote the "physical" performance of the ritual that perserves that knowledge, wisdom and guidance contained in As Salaat, you destroy the essence of what Allah has given you to be guided with. It's like saying read the Quran silently forever and there is never any need to physically recite it out loud because all that is important is the understanding of the message. While no one can argue that the understanding of the message is the most important thing, you will miss many hidden benefits that Allah has contained in the "physical" act of reciting Al Quran in an audible voice; i.e. the programming of the sub conscious that you have nothing to do with.
The physical acts of standing, bowing and prostrating have physical, mental and spiritual affects on those who perform them as directed by Allah, assuming that their intentions are sincere. Meditating like a buddist or something is not performing As Salaat as Allah has described in Al Quran. While you may get some benefits from it as a person may get from exercise or even drugs, it is not what Allah has called As Salaat.
While the physical places associated with names such as Al Masjid Al Haraam, etc., may have been corrupted by sunnis and shias, the fact that they exist should not be in question from the context given in Al Quran. The arguments given for Al Masjid Al Haram being "the truth from our Lord" and other such nonsense, amazes me because those arguments are so weak and don't hold up to the scrutiny of all the ayaat of Al Quran; yet many people here continue to expound these theories. If it is necessary to revisit these arguments and refute them one by one from Al Quran, I guess over time that is what will have to be done if those believing in them would like to do so.
These types of understanding are not freeing people to understand Al Islam better, it is only separating your idea of Islam as being opposite of sunnis/shias, etc. To go from one extreme to another is not generally considered progress. Just my 2 cents.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Neither does your idea of praying to God and hoping problems will vanish. Ref 470-80.
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So in other words, they were just normal people as we have today? Or are the "people of Mohammad" different with different brains, reasoning and thinking?
Peace,
Yeah the people of Muhammad was very likely as the people of today, but can even that be a good lessons for us to learn. I mean it's so easy to be blind of what you have just infront of your eyes but when you read about someone else and how they behave then it can be more easy to grasp it and invoke it in your life.
Maria
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Neither does your idea of praying to God and hoping problems will vanish. Ref 470-80.
Not sure if this was directed towards me or not, but I will respond. I don't have an idea of praying to God and hoping problems will vanish. I pray to Allah and ask for forgiveness, mercy and guidance. To let His will be done. This means that some problems I have will not go as I want them to because maybe my idea of what is best is not what is best in the long run. Allah understands everything and I barely understand a little of what's going on. So I pray and put my faith/trust in the fact that Allah will choose what is best for me and direct that. After I pray, I do what is in my power to direct my life according to the principles laid down by Allah. What happens after that is just a part of life, and I welcome life whether it is difficult or ease. Surely with every difficulty comes ease.
I have no idea what your reference to the ayaat of 470-80 have to do with this thread or your comment. Maybe you would like to explain.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As Salaamu Alaikum,
It amazing me at the extent that people will go to define As Salaat as something or anything other than having a physical performance. Reaching out, bond, etc. are "parts" of As Salaat, true. But when you ignore the numerous ayaat that clearly denote the "physical" performance of the ritual that perserves that knowledge, wisdom and guidance contained in As Salaat, you destroy the essence of what Allah has given you to be guided with. It's like saying read the Quran silently forever and there is never any need to physically recite it out loud because all that is important is the understanding of the message. While no one can argue that the understanding of the message is the most important thing, you will miss many hidden benefits that Allah has contained in the "physical" act of reciting Al Quran in an audible voice; i.e. the programming of the sub conscious that you have nothing to do with.
The physical acts of standing, bowing and prostrating have physical, mental and spiritual affects on those who perform them as directed by Allah, assuming that their intentions are sincere. Meditating like a buddist or something is not performing As Salaat as Allah has described in Al Quran. While you may get some benefits from it as a person may get from exercise or even drugs, it is not what Allah has called As Salaat.
While the physical places associated with names such as Al Masjid Al Haraam, etc., may have been corrupted by sunnis and shias, the fact that they exist should not be in question from the context given in Al Quran. The arguments given for Al Masjid Al Haram being "the truth from our Lord" and other such nonsense, amazes me because those arguments are so weak and don't hold up to the scrutiny of all the ayaat of Al Quran; yet many people here continue to expound these theories. If it is necessary to revisit these arguments and refute them one by one from Al Quran, I guess over time that is what will have to be done if those believing in them would like to do so.
These types of understanding are not freeing people to understand Al Islam better, it is only separating your idea of Islam as being opposite of sunnis/shias, etc. To go from one extreme to another is not generally considered progress. Just my 2 cents.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace Brother,
You said that I ignore the physical performance of salat that are mentioned in Quran, but why do you really see them as physical?
If I take all those verses and look to the whole of the message in Quran I cannot see them as physically anymore.
There is no meaning and effect of physically bow down to God, but to bow down spiritually is alot more beneficial for you because then you will be in contact in a more direct way.But Ok, if someone practise both physical and spiritually salat they can of course do that, who stop you really!?
But to claim that I must perform a physical ritual to uphold salat do I found wrong.You also said that meditating like a buddhist is not a performing of salat, that can only stand for you, I have not said that I do meditate as a form of salat but I said that salat is a spiritually way of connecting directly with God.
God is a force and we are also forces, to connect we do it with intensive thoughts which changes recievers and then boomerang back to you.
How can you achieve it with only physical bow down?
Ok, you see me as extremes and I can understand that, but I'm not a warmonger and my goal is not to blame other believers but instead promote that there is another form of believe in God or Universe.
Thanks
Peace
Maria -
Peace SwedenMajidah sister,
Peace Brother,
You said that I ignore the physical performance of salat that are mentioned in Quran, but why do you really see them as physical?
If I take all those verses and look to the whole of the message in Quran I cannot see them as physically anymore.
There is no meaning and effect of physically bow down to God, but to bow down spiritually is alot more beneficial for you because then you will be in contact in a more direct way.But Ok, if someone practise both physical and spiritually salat they can of course do that, who stop you really!?
But to claim that I must perform a physical ritual to uphold salat do I found wrong.You also said that meditating like a buddhist is not a performing of salat, that can only stand for you, I have not said that I do meditate as a form of salat but I said that salat is a spiritually way of connecting directly with God.
God is a force and we are also forces, to connect we do it with intensive thoughts which changes recievers and then boomerang back to you.
How can you achieve it with only physical bow down?
Ok, you see me as extremes and I can understand that, but I'm not a warmonger and my goal is not to blame other believers but instead promote that there is another form of believe in God or Universe.
Thanks
Peace
MariaI see them as physical because the clear evidence of the Prophet and his followers making a physical performance of As Salaat is irrefuteable from ayaat such as 4102 and many others.
Physically bowing down to God is only a representation of submitting to do His will and not your own, just as not eating pork. Bowing down physically is supposed to make you connect with bowing down spiritual as well. The physical ritual is a reminder for you to do so spiritually. If you bow down physically, but not spiritually, then it does have no effect on you.
I only claim that those who say that they have trusting faith in Allah must bow down physically as well as spiritually because that is what Allah commands in Al Quran, clearly. So it is not my opinion, but written scripture from Al Quran.
It is the word of Allah in Al Quran that will reprogram your sub conscious to obey Him properly, if you use the manual as instructed. Bowing and prostrating as well as reciting Al Quran in an audible voice are part of the manuals instructions, not mine.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace SwedenMajidah sister,
I see them as physical because the clear evidence of the Prophet and his followers making a physical performance of As Salaat is irrefuteable from ayaat such as 4102 and many others.
Physically bowing down to God is only a representation of submitting to do His will and not your own, just as not eating pork. Bowing down physically is supposed to make you connect with bowing down spiritual as well. The physical ritual is a reminder for you to do so spiritually. If you bow down physically, but not spiritually, then it does have no effect on you.
I only claim that those who say that they have trusting faith in Allah must bow down physically as well as spiritually because that is what Allah commands in Al Quran, clearly. So it is not my opinion, but written scripture from Al Quran.
It is the word of Allah in Al Quran that will reprogram your sub conscious to obey Him properly, if you use the manual as instructed. Bowing and prostrating as well as reciting Al Quran in an audible voice are part of the manuals instructions, not mine.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Wow, we differ alot in our beliefs.
Maybe because I see flaws in Quran. I doubt that we shall obey God. We shall obey ourselves. We have the power, we are one with the higher power so we are a team or something.Muhammad was a human and he had visions and his visions came in form of a scripture but who has said that his visions was 100% true?
There are alot of healthy advices in Quran but there are also alot of strange things you cannot grasp and find no meaning in because it goes against the law of nature and law of attraction as well.
You create your own life and you choose if you want to live in paradise or hell, there is no god who put you in a place, come on it feels like some people are neanderthals i'm sorry the language but i feel so frustrated when people cannot open up for the reality.
There is no religions and there is no god in that concept most people think of. We are a part of Universe and we are effected of the planets and stars sun and moon etc all energy forces.
So the focal point is what we wish for what is our goal and that can differ from person to person. The only truth is that the Universe are very fair, it gives back to you what you have begged for may it be positive or negative, you are the only one who can change that.
So in the beginning you'll have to be egoistic because you must start with yourself. You shall love yourself and then you can love others.
Maria