If incest is prohibited, how did the human race populate from Adam?
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When Mankind began to divide as a tree into branches and each were busy with getting only the fruit of their own branch.
1019
All mankind were but one community (and are meant to be so); then they differed. Had it not been for a Word that went forth from your Lord (the Law of free will), He would have judged their disputes immediately.
Thus the moment of the fall is when Mankind started to live in larger societies, forming cities. This is also confirmed by archeology, class-differences emerged when cities were formed and the workers-class and the ruler-class was created.
This was the downfall of Adam, as people were focussed on personal gain and not collective gain as was done before when living in smaller groups.
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Peace Arnold
Thats an interesting way of looking at it, thanks. Makes a lot of sense.
One question that I never got an answer (or dont think) is you believe that Jannat and Jahannam are on this world, correct? So when we die, is that it? Thats similar to the Jewish idea of how we live on in other peoples memories. I personally don't believe that, but just asking your view on that. When we die, what happens to us, literally.
Peace
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Peace all,
Then at which point in evolutionary tree is Adam or when humanity starts?
http//www.drzach.net/images/evolution101.jpg
Or is Adam the initial germ thingy which all life (animal and plant) sprang from?
If so, what's the difference; single person pair or from single germ?The animal kingdom (i.e. nature) has incest occurring all the time; look at a pair of rabbits.
Difference with humans is that we are told ? don?t do it!
This is one of those rules like don?t eat pig meat; not about health reasons entirely for one is not guilty if unawares or if forced and even the best veal is forbidden as food if offered as sacrifice to another god.
The same would apply if someone married their sister unawares.
We are only guilty of things that we are conscious of ? don?t do it!
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This is exactly the danger of interpretation of allegorical verses. From just one hint, it branches out into numerous theories and speculations. The wonder is this is happening right in front of our eyes.
Sister huruf, please don't take this the wrong way. You are entitled to your imagination and opinion and I am sorry if I have offended you in any way.
Peace
No ofence. I said myself that I was speculating. But on the other hand, the point is that I don't know that this aya is allegorical, or that it is factual. Till that is not settled , it is but natural that I should try to find out what it is, and see what fits and what not. May be it is not allegorical. Also many things factual can also be very good alegories. If it serves to communicate a meaning which is beyond its instant scope. In fact I would say that reality as we know it may well be an allegory of a higher order of reality. God speaks about dream in a way that we could say is an allegory of death.
Salaam
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Peace all,
Then at which point in evolutionary tree is Adam or when humanity starts?
http//www.drzach.net/images/evolution101.jpg
Or is Adam the initial germ thingy which all life (animal and plant) sprang from?
If so, what's the difference; single person pair or from single germ?The animal kingdom (i.e. nature) has incest occurring all the time; look at a pair of rabbits.
Difference with humans is that we are told dont do it!
"Adam" would start from the first sapient man/woman.
The animal kingdom has cannibalism occuring all the time, homosexuality occuring all the time, etc, etc.
Or is Adam the initial germ thingy which all life (animal and plant) sprang from?
If so, what's the difference; single person pair or from single germ?Does the quran ever tie "first life" (41) to "adam"? There's a difference.
The difference with humans, also, with incest is that there are natural safeguards to prvent it, just like natural safeguards against adultery, same with theft, and generally every other quranic law. The only thing is, these natural safeguards tend to be quite unsafe for humans.
Someone marrying their sister unawares... Are you serious?
For starters, we are in 2007 now, and that clock isn't turning back any time soon (;D) so you can forget about the days of no DNA testing.
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Salaam,
The word Rabb means "One that developes from one stage to the other until it has reached its completion", sorry to say but this word screams evolution. Sadly, people uphold rather the Christian beliefs and force them on the QUran.
Please see this article on Quran and evolution
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,415,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=46095bd550baa0c4f6bab793e3d871a9
Br. Arnold,
How about the fact that the theory of "evolution" has been smashed against the wall? And I am not talking about evolution as a biological change, where, a life starts of as a sperm and an egg and "evolves into a feeble old human being. Those "stages" are apparent and verfiable, not just for human being but other forms of life.
However, evolution in the Darwinian sense, has so many large "missing" links between stages that it is more of a wish for an easy answer to purpose of life than anything else. Think about it. If Darwinian evolution were true, then, you have your answer to why life exists in this universe... "By accident". No divine being. No grand scheme of things. Just a chance mixture of the right stuff and the right conditions and voila, presto! We have life and from that human beings. Strangely enough, the humans haven't been evolving much after reaching their current stage, I would have assumed that some would have adapted to living in the water or flying in the air or something. Why aren't they?
Br. Arnold, I have utmost respect for your opinions, but to say that creation is a christian concept is just too opinionated for me. We are asked to use our reasoning and research, right? Considering the current situation of the evolution theories, is it really wise to attribute them as having Quranic backing?
Again, this is just my opinion of the matter. But I would rather try to be safe than attribute something to God and his system, without having substantial proof.
Peace
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Peace Arnold
Thats an interesting way of looking at it, thanks. Makes a lot of sense.
One question that I never got an answer (or dont think) is you believe that Jannat and Jahannam are on this world, correct? So when we die, is that it? Thats similar to the Jewish idea of how we live on in other peoples memories. I personally don't believe that, but just asking your view on that. When we die, what happens to us, literally.
Peace
I believe Jannah and Jahannam are descriptions of states of Mankind that occur in this Life AND the Next Life.
Never did I claim it was only in this Life. Jannah means an Garden that has so much growth, the ground is not seen (JNN=covered/not seen, same root as Jinn). Jahannam is the name of the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, people were sacrificed and executed in the old days there. So it was used as a metaphor for a state of Mankind which cannot develop. Jahim does not only mean fire, it also means to stop something from progressing.
When we live according to System of Allah we can create a state of Mankind in which it can develop without stopping (no Jahim/barriers), this is Jannah, an ever growing garden. In this state the Human Nafs/Self can develop itself so it can conquer death and develop further after death and go into the next phase of the Universe, this is also again being in the state of Jannah. The Quran talks about 2 Jannah's, in this Life and the Next.
If Mankind does not live accroding to the Divine Laws of the Universe, it will keep going up and down and constantly be in a state of Jahannam, where it cannot develop (jahim/barrier), it is in a state of fire as its potentials are wasted and burned up. As a person keeps going against the Laws of the Universe, it cannot conquer death in a positive way and ends up in the Universal garbagedump, metaphorically called Jahannam.
Just as the Quran says in 1317, only that which benefits Mankind will keep existing, just as evolution throws out what is not useful or strong enough, in the same way the Universe will throw out those people which are not fit for further development.
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Then at which point in evolutionary tree is Adam or when humanity starts?
Adam in Arabic means Intelligent man, this is exactly the meaning of Homo Sapiens, Thinking Man...
The Quran says clearly we developed from lower species
6133 Your Lord is Absolute, the Lord of Mercy. He could replace you with whomever He Will, like He RAISED YOU FROM THE GENERATIONS OF OTHER FOLK.
7628 (Who gave them the mind and body to behave the way they choose?)We it is Who have created them, and strengthened their frame. And if We Will, We can replace them entirely with other nations.
7114 Knowing that He has created you in successive stages.
7117 And Allah has caused you to grow as a growth from the earth/as a (geneological) tree.
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Br. Arnold,
How about the fact that the theory of "evolution" has been smashed against the wall? And I am not talking about evolution as a biological change, where, a life starts of as a sperm and an egg and "evolves into a feeble old human being. Those "stages" are apparent and verfiable, not just for human being but other forms of life.
However, evolution in the Darwinian sense, has so many large "missing" links between stages that it is more of a wish for an easy answer to purpose of life than anything else. Think about it. If Darwinian evolution were true, then, you have your answer to why life exists in this universe... "By accident". No divine being. No grand scheme of things. Just a chance mixture of the right stuff and the right conditions and voila, presto! We have life and from that human beings. Strangely enough, the humans haven't been evolving much after reaching their current stage, I would have assumed that some would have adapted to living in the water or flying in the air or something. Why aren't they?
Br. Arnold, I have utmost respect for your opinions, but to say that creation is a christian concept is just too opinionated for me. We are asked to use our reasoning and research, right? Considering the current situation of the evolution theories, is it really wise to attribute them as having Quranic backing?
Again, this is just my opinion of the matter. But I would rather try to be safe than attribute something to God and his system, without having substantial proof.
Peace
Peace,
Evolution theory was developed by Muslims, Darwin only developed the theory a bit further. In the middle ages, it was normal for Muslims to believe in Evolution.
Allah has created the Laws that eventually would allow Life to emerge and eventually us. Thus evolution is not blind chance, it is an outcome of a developed enviroment. Precisely calculated.
I have studied Biochemistry, and evolution has more proof then whatever theory out there.
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Peace to all,
Great posts Arnold, you have again helped explain some very difficult topics, I for one believe in both creation and evolution, why cant God do both, in fact I know there is a verse in the Quran that says God created and then he continues his creation, which matches both what we believe without proof (creation) and what we see and can prove (evolution) both are from God, and we are asked to believe in the seen and the unseen in the Quran so this fits nicely I think.
Kurt
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Peace Kurt,
God created the Universe as a precise mechanism, through cause and effect and the boundaries of the mechanism, intelliegnt had to emerge in this universe. This is His Law.
A God that has to interfer constantly in the creation is not a smart god to me, but one that creates a precise mechanism in which a definite outcome of life would emerge is one smart indeed.
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Bro Arnold gave a simple and effective hint of evolution when he indicated the implications of thw word " Rabb".
Here is another clue
1528 And your Lord said to the malai'ka "I am creating a human being from a hardened clay."
1529 "So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him."Note that in the Arabic text of 1529, we encounter the phrase word " "
One point worth mentioning is that in the eclassical Arabic language, the word " " actually means WHEN, not IF. It implies something that is certain to happen at a future date. Whereas the correct equivalent for "if" would be " " ("inn". You can easily verify this.
So when God declared to the malai'ka that he would be creating a human being from clay, this human being wasn't yet qualified to become the vicegerent of God on Earth. However, WHEN God perfected this human creation (at a later time) through breathing if his Spirit (Ruuh) into it, it became Adam. It was only then that Adam was able to make the forces of nature (mala'ika) subservient to him. (Hence the command to the malaika to " prostrate" to him.
The usage of the word "WHEN" in 1529 also screams evolution.
The breathing if God's RUUH into us is what made us distinct and superior to His other creations. This is the missing link that Darwin supporters are still searching for. No one can tell for sure when it happened. But it is safe to assume that from the time of first creation to the time if evolution into Adam, was a gradual process which may have taken thousands of years. This is the grand scale of things, and it does resemble, to a certain extent, how the fetus evolves slowly over a period of 9 months in the mother's belly, as described in the following verse
7113 "Why do you not seek God humbly."
7114 "While He created you in stages?"Such is evolution but on a smaller scale.
Peace..
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And what about verse 359?
359 - "The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was."
Peace
Jesus came about as any other human being?
What about 252?
2520 - "And We have not sent before you any messengers but they most surely ate food and went about in the markets; and We have made some of you a trial for others; will you bear patiently? And your Lord is ever Seeing."
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peace
And what about verse 359?
359 - "The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was."
Peace
i think that this verse was sent because christians up until then believed that jesus was created without a man, someknd of miracle birth that goes against laws of nature and in this verse we see that his (jesus's) case is just like adam's (rest of mankind) who came from both male and female.
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Peace Arnold
I believe Jannah and Jahannam are descriptions of states of Mankind that occur in this Life AND the Next Life.
Never did I claim it was only in this Life. Jannah means an Garden that has so much growth, the ground is not seen (JNN=covered/not seen, same root as Jinn). Jahannam is the name of the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, people were sacrificed and executed in the old days there. So it was used as a metaphor for a state of Mankind which cannot develop. Jahim does not only mean fire, it also means to stop something from progressing.
When we live according to System of Allah we can create a state of Mankind in which it can develop without stopping (no Jahim/barriers), this is Jannah, an ever growing garden. In this state the Human Nafs/Self can develop itself so it can conquer death and develop further after death and go into the next phase of the Universe, this is also again being in the state of Jannah. The Quran talks about 2 Jannah's, in this Life and the Next.
If Mankind does not live accroding to the Divine Laws of the Universe, it will keep going up and down and constantly be in a state of Jahannam, where it cannot develop (jahim/barrier), it is in a state of fire as its potentials are wasted and burned up. As a person keeps going against the Laws of the Universe, it cannot conquer death in a positive way and ends up in the Universal garbagedump, metaphorically called Jahannam.
Just as the Quran says in 1317, only that which benefits Mankind will keep existing, just as evolution throws out what is not useful or strong enough, in the same way the Universe will throw out those people which are not fit for further development.
Sorry if I offended you. What I meant was that when I read your description of Jannat and Jahanam on your pages, it was directed towards this life and I didnt see any mention of the next (meaning akhirah) unless I misread it.
I really like your intrepretation, it takes away the fairytales that Muslims, Christians, etc. blindly follow. I also believe about Janaat and Jahannam in this life as well. Its a state of mind.
Keep up the good work.
Peace
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Peace Br. OPF, Pazuzu,
I think my explanation have been very sparse. What I am implying is I accept that man was/is created in stages. But those stages are fairly obvious, aren't they? Like you said, Br. Pazuzu
But it is safe to assume that from the time of first creation to the time if evolution into Adam, was a gradual process which may have taken thousands of years. This is the grand scale of things, and it does resemble, to a certain extent, how the fetus evolves slowly over a period of 9 months in the mother's belly, as described in the following verse
7113 "Why do you not seek God humbly."
7114 "While He created you in stages?"Such is evolution but on a smaller scale.
Peace..
You hit the nail on the head when you yourself identified the stages of "biological evolution" above from inception to perfection. That is a downright verifiable biological fact. Now if you say, that Adam was a product of a slow process of evolution which may have taken place over thousands of year, then, please explain why 359, when Jesus is being compared to Adam, doesn't go something like this
"The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.... in stages....eventually."
This verse is as simple and straightforward as it can be. and the second half of the verse is referring to Adam. "Be" and he was. Period.
As for 1529
However, WHEN God perfected this human creation (at a later time) through breathing if his Spirit (Ruuh) into it, it became Adam.
By your point of view, Adam was perfected BECAUSE God breathed his Ruuh in him, not before. So 1529 would be understood as "So when I perfect him, by blowing My Spirit in him, you shall yield to him."
Please try to understand this from my point of view. It seems like the theory of evolution is being forced in the Book. I'll just put a simple scenario. Wipe your mind clear of any theory of evolution and then, when you read about the stages, what would be the obvious interpretation that you would arrive at?
Just consider this point from 37.
37 - "He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are firm verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are allegorical. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its original interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding."
The Allegorical verses... people will tend to follow writings/sayings SIMILAR TO the allegorical verses, not the allegorical verses themselves. So, when you read the theory of evolution, you related it to the allegorical verses in the sense that, "yes, the Book alludes to something similar to this theory. Therefore, the theory must be the interpretation of those verses." That is exactly the trap that we should be avoiding.
Although, I am sure that most will not agree with my point of view in this regard, but I truly hope that you will understand where I am coming from. Because I feel that I have not been successful in getting my point across.
You will have to excuse me, if I have written anything irrelevant in the post. I am not as proficient as most in this forum.
Peace