The true female and male hijab?
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I searched for a photo to support his claim but have not been not able to yet. However, I have come across this photo of the Australian aborigines
http//www.fotosearch.com/IST503/1157592/
The truth is that the only religious awrah is people?s genital organs (2430-31; 235-6, 7029-30); the rest of the human body, including the breasts, is traditional awrah or not awrah at all. I may explain if necessary and if God wills.
Just a little help...from Sudan
http//www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?mid=3350329&epmid=1&partner=Google
and
http//C\Users\Samia\Desktop\dinka woman.jpg
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Common sense tells people, men or women, roughly the limit between behaving or dressing normally and "overdoing" it, I would agree with you simply on common sense. However, the fact of enjoining the same whether you are with females or with males and establishing the difference solely on personal relation -being part of the family or household or not- makes think that it is not necessarily talking about sexual possibilities, although they may be included in the general respectful attire and manners to be observed in front of everybody with whom one is not in familiar terms. Now, I don't know whether at those times Arab men wore much jewelry. If not, then it makes more sense that this part which is addressed to women refers to showing (off?) things that one puts on as adornment and not things that are part of the body.
There is another part in this which is evaded because of this hurry to override everything with the "sexual" (enormous) dimension. I refer to simple (unprovoquing) beauty. I for instance like women -rather, beautiful women. Not that I find them attrative in a sexual way, but still I like beauty, and woman's beauty is well, beautiful. I can't see why it should be necessarily tempting and not merely pleasing. ?What is wrong with seeing something pleasant? Needless to say that you can be very well covered and still manage to throw some hooks. Of course, there are also beautiful men, but may be not so often and not of the same kind. And of course, as we all know, beauty mostly is a matter of personal taste. At any rate admiring and enjoying it is not the same thing as being hormone driven.
Salaam
Huruf
) I like your style,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,of writing, ................and it does contain sense too.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaikum all,
Had a big discussion/debate/argument about this a while back with some folks. To see my point of view refuting the article on free-minds and other places about "khimar" and the ayaat mentioned in this thread, as well as others arguements against mine, start at the following link with the fourth comment on the page
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14453.75
Just my 2 cents again.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Oh my God, where was i ? How come i missed ,,,,all that mess,, in the above mentioned debate (
siki
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As Salaamu Alaikum all,
I wish you said what Amir Taheri's chronic lie is about.
Is it a lie that Abol-Hassan Bani-Sadr, the first president of the Islamic Republic, announced that ''scientific research had shown that women's hair emitted rays that drove men insane'' (sic)?
Whether it is a lie or not who said this, those who follow Quran only as divine scripture don't believe such nonsense or use it as reason for the proofs from Al Quran that we provide. To group it as such and suggest it, is to try to mislead others from the legitimate arguments and their proofs.
If it is, ImamQuranonly and siki and you are telling a lie because you claim that the zeenah mentioned in 2431 is women's bodily beauty which should be covered otherwise men will sexually be provoked.
wouldn't the raiment of righteousness include dressing or covering up oneself as Allah has described in 2431...? (ImamQuranonly)
First you are wrong in saying "which should be covered otherwise men will sexually be provoked". I have never made that claim. The reason I give for women covering up what I described in the article is because ALLAH gave the command; He knows the purpose of His own command, your or my reasoning and judgment to reject that is only a sign of disbelief or rejection of faith in that command from Him! You clearly haven't considered all of the terms used in 2431 if you think that breasts/chest/cleavage are free to go uncovered.
In 2431 Allah does not describe the way women have to cover themselves up. The only thing He says they have to cover up is their genital organs (forooj), which actually is a warning in passing because the main topic the verse deals with is the way women have to wear their jewelry (zeenah).
First, this is actually a lie. Allah clearly describes "part" of the way women are to cover themselves. You must not be reading the entire ayat. But other instructions are also given in 3359. Maybe you missed the part in 2431 that says to use their "khumur" to cover their cleavage. And, according to you, Allah wouldn't be interested in how women reveal anything from their body, BUT He would be very concerned about how they wear their jewelry ) That's an utterly stupid suggestion and point of view when based only from reason and logic.
Otherwise, He would be allowing them to reveal the hidden parts of their body such as their lust-provoking (?) hair and bosoms to the exceptional people cited in the verse such as their male attendants.
If you understood the ayaat correctly, then you would not be saying that He would be allowing them to reveal the hidden parts of their body to "male attendants". Just to give you a hint in the right direction, only the part in brown below in the ayat is said can be revealed to those people. According to you, that would only be jewelry anyway right?
Your mind is obviously terribly influenced by sunnism,etc. and the thought that every command from Allah is addressing the sexual urges of men. Let's look at 2431 again
Transliteration Waqul lilmu/minati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw aba-ihinna aw aba-i buAAoolatihinna aw abna-ihinna aw abna-i buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisa-ihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee al-irbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisa-i wala yadribna bi-arjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almu/minoona laAAallakum tuflihoona
Literal And say to the believers they (F) lower/humble from their eye sights, and they (F) protect/safe keep from their genital parts between their legs, and they do not show their decoration/beauty except what appeared/is visible from it, and they hold in place/sew (E) with their head covers/covers on their collar opening in clothes/chests , and they do not show their decoration/beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers (fathers in-law), or their sons, or their husband's sons (step- sons), or their brothers, or their brother's sons (nephews), or their sisters' sons (nephews), or their women, or what their right (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-giers under contract), or the followers/servants (those) not (owners) of need/desire/intelligence and resourcefulness (without a sexual drive) from the men or the child/children (the very old or very young), those who did not see and know of on the women's shameful genital parts , and they (F) do not beat/strike with their (F) feet to be known what they (F) hide from their decoration/beauty , and repent to God all together , oh you the believers, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.
Free-Minds And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
Rashad Khalifa And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.
Yusuf Ali And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.You act as if the part in red was the only command given in the ayat. There are SIX commands given to believing women in that ayat, see if you can figure out what all 6 of them are and what is the difference between them!
As for ImamQuranonly?s claim that the khumur provides protection for women with large breasts, medium breasts and small breasts, please excuse me but I can not take it seriously.
"?because," ImamQuranonly goes on explainig, "when a woman is properly wearing a khumur and uses the extra material to cover her breast area over the clothes she already has on, no one can tell what size and shape here breasts are."
Really? Well then, those X-size breasts become hidden after the khumur is placed on them. So what happens to their mysterious sizes when the women obey God Who allows them to display the hidden parts of their body
To help you, try to read the part I have written above SLOWLY. Then go back and read the link and all of it arguments/proofs for and against it. If that doesn't help you to understand it, then just PRAY (if you do that).
Khimar when placed over the cleavage helps to hide size if done correctly. Just like clothes won't hide if a person is fat or skinny, khimar won't completely hide the size of women with extreme breast size. But it will reduce their appearance and keep from attracting too much attention to them from "men and women". Either way, there is no exception for women to be able to show their breasts to all those mentioned including male attendants. Even when khimar is not used to cover the cleavage, the breasts are still to be covered under the command in 3359.
Back to your accusation of Amir Taheri. Is it a lie that the Muslim women in Senegal wear a colourful headgear against the sun while working in the fields but go topless?
I searched for a photo to support his claim but have not been not able to yet. However, I have come across this photo of the Australian aborigines
http//www.fotosearch.com/IST503/1157592/
Using people's behavior, customs and dress patterns that are based off of incorrect knowledge anyway, is no way to prove or disprove the commands given by Allah in Al Quran. I guess you could also go back to pre-cave man when man just went around naked and say we all need to get back to our roots because we were not over sexed back then when everyone was naked. Your arguments are really sad. Al Quran is it's own criteria. You can't defend it or oppose it by the actions of humans.
The truth is that the only religious awrah is people?s genital organs (2430-31; 235-6, 7029-30); the rest of the human body, including the breasts, is traditional awrah or not awrah at all. I may explain if necessary and if God wills.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayAllah made sure that people of knowledge don't follow ridiculous suggestions by people like you by including in ayat 2431 (along with 3359)
walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna
and they hold in place/sew (E) with their head covers/covers on their collar opening in clothes/chestsI guess you think this means that they should use their covers to spread over their chest jewelry? )
I really don't understand where you get your points from unless you don't believe in Al Quran as divine scripture from Allah as guidance for all humanity. And are we talking about "awrah" or "zeenah" or all of 2431?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
LOL rotfl It was a mess, and I'm not proud of the arguments. But I still referred to it because I stand by the arguments that I put forth to make the point. Hopefully those who read it can look at the points of importance and ignore the other parts. -\
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
o Oh my God, where was i ? How come i missed ,,,, the mess,, created in the above mentioned debate
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
LOL rotfl It was a mess, and I'm not proud of the arguments. But I still referred to it because I stand by the arguments that I put forth to make the point. Hopefully those who read it can look at the points of importance and ignore the other parts. -\
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO. salam brother
Actually i am enlightened, ! because i myself need to sort out this head cover thing, (which presently i am not too sure about) confused
I have just gone through it without really evaluating the important points made by both sides , and have to cross check/verify them myself. eat voodoo
I shall soon do it in my spare time and inshallah would get back with my opinion , as to who's side ; I side by. ;D
siki
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I really don't understand where you get your points from unless you don't believe in Al Quran as divine scripture from Allah as guidance for all humanity. And are we talking about "awrah" or "zeenah" or all of 2431?
When I refer to zero knowledge, I don?t mean the level of knowledge ImanQuranonly has but the content of the verse itself. It is relegated to zero knowledge, for example, to deprive its discussion of the concept of awrah because awrah is simply another word for zeenah which the verse deals with
And let the believing women not display their zeenah to any but ? the children who are unaware of women?s awrah.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
When I refer to zero knowledge, I don?t mean the level of knowledge ImanQuranonly has but the content of the verse itself. It is relegated to zero knowledge, for example, to deprive its discussion of the concept of awrah because awrah is simply another word for zeenah which the verse deals with
And let the believing women not display their zeenah to any but ? the children who are unaware of women?s awrah.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayIs this a change of mind from zeenah = jewelry?
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However, how would you translate the awra in both ayas in the same meaning as the zeena in 24.31? (huruf)
In 3313 the musrekeen's houses are awra. They are prone to plunder.
In 2431 the women's zeenah are awra. They are prone to jealousy.The houses mentioned in 3313 do not tempt anybody sexually. Neither do the zeena in 2431.
The word awra is used in 2458 too, but this time with the meaning related to sexual maturity of the children from you (minkum). They have to take permission to enter their parents' room.
Isn't it clear enough, a woman's own children are fobidden to see her awra when it means parts of her body such as her breasts and genital organs even though they have not reached sexual maturity (lam yablugu'l khuluma) yet.
On the other hand, there is no referrence to the children's sexual maturity in 2431; plus, they are not defined as from you (minkum), and you are allwed to reveal your zeenah to them.
Is it not clear enough?
What else do we want God to tell us so that we will accept that the zeenah in 2431 can not be breasts, bellies, genital organs... and that they are simply the jewlry women wear?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam Hasan
You are the one who is linking zeenah to 3awra, whereas the whole verse does not mention 3awra. And BTW, 3awra has nothing to relate it to sex or seual desire, as you have noted yourself in the different verses. 3awar means diappearance of the eye sight, hence a3war means one eyed person. So, "3awra" is anything we do not want others to see (make them blind of it). Why would a necklace be "3awra" just because it is around my neck, or a bracelet just because it is aroung my wrist? What if I am not wearing any jewelry, can I show my bosom? If it is my wrist that should not be seen, then the verse would have given us a "design" for a dress code. But the verse speaks about the zeenah of women.
Unfortunately, no other "zeenah" is mentioned in the qur'aan, but we can understand it from some other derivatives
4112; 675 the zeenah of the sky is its lamps "stars".
497 zeenah of hearts is righteousness "imaan"
1024 Earth natureWe can roughly deduce that the zeenah for anything is directly related to it and exclusive to it. To my understanding deduced from this, zeenah of women is something exclusive to them and directly related to them. Jewelry fails this test.
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Salaam Hasan
You are the one who is linking zeenah to 3awra, whereas the whole verse does not mention 3awra. And BTW, 3awra has nothing to relate it to sex or seual desire, as you have noted yourself in the different verses. 3awar means diappearance of the eye sight, hence a3war means one eyed person. So, "3awra" is anything we do not want others to see (make them blind of it). Why would a necklace be "3awra" just because it is around my neck, or a bracelet just because it is aroung my wrist? What if I am not wearing any jewelry, can I show my bosom? If it is my wrist that should not be seen, then the verse would have given us a "design" for a dress code. But the verse speaks about the zeenah of women.
Unfortunately, no other "zeenah" is mentioned in the qur'aan, but we can understand it from some other derivatives
4112; 675 the zeenah of the sky is its lamps "stars".
497 zeenah of hearts is righteousness "imaan"
1024 Earth natureWe can roughly deduce that the zeenah for anything is directly related to it and exclusive to it. To my understanding deduced from this, zeenah of women is something exclusive to them and directly related to them. Jewelry fails this test.
Salaam Samia.
You are the one who is linking zeenah to 3awra...
No, God is doing that. Please remember, to prove my point I cited the relevant part of An-Nuur 31 beforeAnd let the believing women not display their zeenah to any but ? to the children who are unaware of women?s awrah.
It is clear from these wors of God's that women's zeena and women's awra stand for the same thing.
Samia, please give me time to breathe. I can not write in two threads at the same time. When I entered the forum, my intention was to answer your post in the POLYGAMY thread but had to stop here to answer your new post.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
ImanQuranonly, please excuse me from this discussion because the points you make do not look serious to me, and I see that it will be too tiring to take everything from zero knowledge.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayHasan Akcay,
Alhamdulilaah. Nice way to say that you don't know what you are talking about and can't prove the points that you are prompting regarding this topic. That is typical of someone with such an opinionated and strong view on something, to then just ignore all the evidence presented against it and try to reduce the discussion to an irrelevent point that doesn't prove their point.
If you ever get the time to read and study the information presented and produce some Quranic reason and logic to agree or disagree with them, then I would be pleased to read what you have to say about it. Otherwise, well you know...
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaam siki brother,
Looking forward to your comments and points of view on the subject matter when you get the time.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO. salam brother
Actually i am enlightened, ! because i myself need to sort out this head cover thing, (which presently i am not too sure about) confused
I have just gone through it without really evaluating the important points made by both sides , and have to cross check/verify them myself. eat voodoo
I shall soon do it in my spare time and inshallah would get back with my opinion , as to who's side ; I side by. ;D
siki
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PEACE
The way i understood it is that you should cover from your chest area to your knee's.
But on the other than what i don't really get is that alot of things can excite men.
Wether that may be her eyes, hair, or just the smooth skin whatever that may be.
As far as i know, it's be to use common and moral sense when it comes to dressing up
and obviously not purposly dress to impress. LOl...