homosexuality as a crime?
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Public homosexuality.
Parwez is wrong on there.
415,16, show the equal punishment between homosexuals, regardless of gender. It is for four witnesses to be brought forth, and none of them can be done by spying (4912). So, the only true way for that to happen is if they were publicly homosexual and four people witnessed it. The punishment there is imprisonment until death, or an event changes things for them. For instance, look at 651, an order to the prophet. It shows that they have to be public, and also, that it can't be house arrest.
I can only guess why homosexuality is forbidden, simply because it destoys the population. But hey, the last thing we need is more people on Earth .
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Public homosexuality.
Parwez is wrong on there.
415,16, show the equal punishment between homosexuals, regardless of gender. It is for four witnesses to be brought forth, and none of them can be done by spying (4912). So, the only true way for that to happen is if they were publicly homosexual and four people witnessed it. The punishment there is imprisonment until death, or an event changes things for them. For instance, look at 651, an order to the prophet. It shows that they have to be public, and also, that it can't be house arrest.
I can only guess why homosexuality is forbidden, simply because it destoys the population. But hey, the last thing we need is more people on Earth .
Peace
415-16 does not show equal treatment for male-male and female-female lewd acts. The women are treated differently to the men. This is no doubt a contraversial verse in the Quran. The women are to be confined to their houses until death/another way is ordained for them, after the testimony of four people.
For men, they are to be punished in some way, but are to be forgiven if they repent.
I do not understand why men get off so easily. Sodomy is far worse than whatever women do, as far as I am aware.
Ichepren, those who engage in same sex lewd acts have fought a long and successful campaign to have themselves thought of as normal. We call sodomy anal sex and their perversion homosexuality as if they are equal to 'heterosexuality' and penile-vaginal sex. They make out they are slightly eccentric and effeminite, but basically harmless. They are not. God does not give them equality with 'heterosexuals' and nor should we. Their acts are a peversion.
Roshan
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Peace
415-16 does not show equal treatment for male-male and female-female lewd acts. The women are treated differently to the men. This is no doubt a contraversial verse in the Quran. The women are to be confined to their houses until death/another way is ordained for them, after the testimony of four people.
For men, they are to be punished in some way, but are to be forgiven if they repent.
I do not understand why men get off so easily. Sodomy is far worse than whatever women do, as far as I am aware.
Ichepren, those who engage in same sex lewd acts have fought a long and successful campaign to have themselves thought of as normal. We call sodomy anal sex and their perversion homosexuality as if they are equal to 'heterosexuality' and penile-vaginal sex. They make out they are slightly eccentric and effeminite, but basically harmless. They are not. God does not give them equality with 'heterosexuals' and nor should we. Their acts are a peversion.
Roshan
I believe it wholly does. Just because the order is reversed does not mean it is applicable to either. Why is God specifying a detail here and leaving it out? Look at it in context. If I said, "Clean the kitchen with a mop and a bucket filled with soapy water. If the bathroom is dirty, clean that too", does that mean the method of cleaning the bathroom is unprescribed? What if I then said "I have given every detail of the cleaning to you, now do it", would that not reinforce the point?
Verses are not there to fill space or sound nice when recited.
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I think that that the Quran outlook, the islamic outlook, consists of guiding and giving support in the right direction, but leaving plenty of room for people to better themselves by means of that guide and support and their human fitra. People are different. For some sex is a problem or the sympton of a very deep emotional or philosophical problem. We say "homosexuality" and dump together in that word a whole lot of many different things. That is very unfair to those who are involved in homosexuality thorough some emotional difficulty, or because they were misled and misused when children or adolescent... We cannot close the door to those people and say it is wrong and that is all there is to it. Lying is also wrong and bickering and many things, but we do not ban people from our society because of that. That doesn't mean that it is what it should be. Then there are of course those "homosexuals" who behave exclusively for lust, like lusful "heterosexuals". The fact that four witnesses are required, as has already been said time and again, seems to indicate that although we know that it is bad and we should not think otherwise, we are also not going to invade people's feeedom and intimacy and impose our own personal criteria of how when and how fast they should improve. We all have our faults with which we struggle and we should help each other as we can with our understanding and patiente to get to the root of the bad habits. Neither the thoughtless and shallow blanket acceptance of "homosexuality" nor blanket condemnation of people who live with it will btter them or us. Both ways we close the door to knowledge and real regeneration thorugh ananlysis and understanding.
Sorry for the sermon, I know that I haven't said anything new on this very old question.
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Actually the punishment is the same for both. I was also confused when I initially read it. That's why we need to read the verses in context (at least 5 verses before and after)
415 And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
416 And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them (the punishment mentioned in the previous verse! ). If they (both women and men) repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer,
Merciful.Tell me in which situations would a person have 4 witnesses against them.
A) Public or porn
B) The person has done it with so many people and 4 of them come forward. This is a severe health risk. Unlikely, yet possible scenario.
Also it's enormously beneficial to keep read the verses after 416
417 Repentance is only for those (doesn't matter what sex they are! ) who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
418 And there will be no repentance for those (again no matter the gender! ) who commit sin until death comes upon one of them, then he says "I repent now!", nor for those who die while they are disbelievers. To those We have prepared a painful retribution.
419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by force, nor that you become harsh with them to take away some of what you have given them, unless they commit a clear lewdness. And live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, then perhaps you may dislike something and God makes in it much good.
420 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Would you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?
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Tell me in which situations would a person have 4 witnesses against them.
B) The person has done it with so many people and 4 of them come forward. This is a severe health risk. Unlikely, yet possible scenario.
I do not think people who have done it are qualified to witness against their partner. Their testimony is not going to make their punishment less than the partner's punishment. They themselves are as suspects as their partner.
This misunderstanding lead to an Egyptian law where the police "raids" a brothel, take all men and women. Men become "witnesses" for the prosecution while women get the punishment alone.
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Actually the punishment is the same for both. I was also confused when I initially read it. That's why we need to read the verses in context (at least 5 verses before and after)
415 And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
416 And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them (the punishment mentioned in the previous verse! ). If they (both women and men) repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer,
Merciful.Tell me in which situations would a person have 4 witnesses against them.
A) Public or porn
B) The person has done it with so many people and 4 of them come forward. This is a severe health risk. Unlikely, yet possible scenario.
Also it's enormously beneficial to keep read the verses after 416
417 Repentance is only for those (doesn't matter what sex they are! ) who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
418 And there will be no repentance for those (again no matter the gender! ) who commit sin until death comes upon one of them, then he says "I repent now!", nor for those who die while they are disbelievers. To those We have prepared a painful retribution.
419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by force, nor that you become harsh with them to take away some of what you have given them, unless they commit a clear lewdness. And live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, then perhaps you may dislike something and God makes in it much good.
420 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Would you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?
Peace
Is the 'they' in 416 both of the masculine and feminine gender. If so, I fully understand this verse for the first time!
Roshan
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Peace
Is the 'they' in 416 both of the masculine and feminine gender. If so, I fully understand this verse for the first time!
Roshan
Salaam!
Yes. Actually, is in dual form, and is the same regardless of gender. Thus, a general meaning can be rendered to "the two who...". So now, please tell me, what is your full understanding?
