Support the mistress as well as the wife
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Salam Sharp001,
My 2cents..
Reality encompasses more than what is only in this dunya... perhaps what happens more in this world (as in part of human life) is more a product of subjective reality.... cultural morality... however we can't close our eyes to it and ignore it... nor get sucked into its mere fantasies...
Peace Br. Mehdi,
I am interested to know what you think is the role of the Book in this "reality".
I think as for the part about "share their wives with other men.. etc " Again please refer to OPF's post regarding the safe guards within the Quran on this subject.. there is sacredness to marriage (or at least can be). It's beyond the simple lust of sex and mistresses etc...
As for sacredness of marriage (which in your view can be either a monogamous or a polygynous one), why would a married woman marriage to another not be as "sacred"?
Do you believe for a man to have more than one wife is wrong?
In the straightest of answers, I do. Why? because I feel for me that it is liable to cause more problems than it solves. I don't want to marry anybody other than in addition to whoever my original wife would be. Period. I don't feel right about it, for my sake, for her sake and for my children's sake. Upto now in my life, however inexperienced I might be in comparison to others here in the forum, I have yet to come across a problem, the solution to which is polygamy.
Peace.
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Salam Sharp001,
In the straightest of answers, I do. Why? because I feel for me that it is liable to cause more problems than it solves. I don't want to marry anybody other than in addition to whoever my original wife would be. Period. I don't feel right about it, for my sake, for her sake and for my children's sake. Upto now in my life, however inexperienced I might be in comparison to others here in the forum, I have yet to come across a problem, the solution to which is polygamy.
This reminds of a mystic who midely joked about this subject. He said, "Where God's law doesn't protect a man from women.. man's law will!!" Ofcourse it's a baised joke and way to look at it.
I believe for you the key words for you are that "I don't feel right about it.. " not more than anything more need to be said or forced on you regarding the subject...
but at what point will one go to force thier way of life onto others?
at the same time what I see in my relationship my grandmother holds with her husband and other wife.. I can understand where they do (and have been for a long time) feel right about it and how it works for them... They all get the attention and support they need.. and they share a life together based on those needs and wants... of course the two wifes do not live in the same house but will meet with eachother on occasion..
As for sacredness of marriage (which in your view can be either a monogamous or a polygynous one), why would a married woman marriage to another not be as "sacred"?
Are you saying a married woman who is married to a man get married to another woman.. basicly are you talking about gay marriage or a woman who has multiple husbands? Please let me know... or if even if you think there is a difference...
I am interested to know what you think is the role of the Book in this "reality".
I think.. the role of the Book.. in this form is as we see here on this thread... once again.. I can't get past OPF's post for this matter...
There is no question that polygyny happens, legal or otherwise. Islam just puts safeguards on it.
OPF may mean one thing... and there also maybe others who thing another... no matter what.. there is no question that it does happen.. legal or otherwise.. the state of Utah in the US would be a good case study... the Quran puts safeguards on it... meaning... it sets criteria to follow... I see this in my grandmothers case... some may disagree about what they are doing... but wouldn't be able to disagree weather it's working or not...
ok.. let me know...
peace
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Salam..
Now for the real need of poligamy, where one should start is counting the number of females as against the number of males. Withdraw from the latter the number of adulterers, the number of gays, the number of irresponsible, the number of men who simple want celibacy and don't experience the urge either for a wife or a mistress, and any other category hard to entrust with the burden of one wife+kids, let alone more than one wife+kids. Withdraw from the women any category who would qualify as not capable or not interested in marriage or adulteresses. Then see how both figures, marriageable men and marriageable women, match and we should get some idea of whether to have a legal frame for poligamy would be useful or not, and eventually of what kind.
Very legal of looking at it... as much as what you say makes sense.. love is quite illogical...
peace
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Sis. farida & Br. Mehdi,
Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel that for you what is real is what is actually happening in the world, whether it be right or wrong. I mean, do you actually think that it will stop at a man having many wives? Caring is sharing so, why shouldn't the men share their wives with other men? Let their wives get married to other men, and we'll get a jolly good family, where everyone is loving and sharing and caring.
Peace
Salaam
For now I'm only using the example of two modern women Mrs Clinton and Mrs Archer who are both educated and liberated women. What stopped them from doing what their husbands did? Why are women different from men ???
I tell you in giving you receive, because if you give the same right to the other woman and she insist on her right to be taken as a wife , than clearly she is not cheaply avalible for fun only and that is when its less likely that many men would cheat as taking more wives means more responsibilty and likely more children which is not easy.
Polygony has been allowed in traditional Muslim countries but very few had taken two wives ..its only when they struck oil in the middle east that you see them exploiting this.
There are some cults who tried a culture of sharing husband and wife but this fad has not taken off. People still like to stick with the old couple-concept. ....As OPF said Qur'an only puts safegurdsBest regards
Best regards
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What stops women, is the same reason that brothels exist in abundance yet stud-farms are rare.
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Salam,
What stops women, is the same reason that brothels exist in abundance yet stud-farms are rare.
Are you implying that men are more horny.. ?
For now I'm only using the example of two modern women Mrs Clinton and Mrs Archer who are both educated and liberated women. What stopped them from doing what their husbands did? Why are women different from men ???
Farida, do you think women cheat less than men? I remember seeing a report in this past year that said married women tend to cheat more than married men... ofcourse these so called 'studies' can be made with any bent.. but wondering your views... plus what makes a liberated women?
peace.. peace
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I can't remember the aya, but the Qur'an says that an adulterer cannot be married except to an adulteress and an adulteress can only be married to an adulterer.
It has been said that a mistress should not become involved with a married man, but it should also be clear that a cheated wife should divorce. On the other hand, not every mistress, may be not most of the mistresses, know that the man they are dating is married until later. So in fact, I can't see that any one is blameless, although it is clear that the capital culprit is the adulterer and lier. There is where we should start.
Although I don't want to shatter anybody's good intentions and thoughts about helping society accepting sharing of scarce human ressources, with men like those described aove, I doubt that even if there was legal poligamy they would make use of it. They would always choose to have a mistress and not a wife. It is not that they have a mistress because they cannot have a second or third or whatever wife. They pick a mistress because that is EXACTLY what they want.
Now for the real need of poligamy, where one should start is counting the number of females as against the number of males. Withdraw from the latter the number of adulterers, the number of gays, the number of irresponsible, the number of men who simple want celibacy and don't experience the urge either for a wife or a mistress, and any other category hard to entrust with the burden of one wife+kids, let alone more than one wife+kids. Withdraw from the women any category who would qualify as not capable or not interested in marriage or adulteresses. Then see how both figures, marriageable men and marriageable women, match and we should get some idea of whether to have a legal frame for poligamy would be useful or not, and eventually of what kind.
Salaam,
Salaam huruf
I am using example of two incidents when these famous men were publically known to be married yet they got the mistress ...for what ever reason money etc .. both women, mistress and wife seem to stick with such an adulterer because he is rich and famous etc that goes to say a lot about three of them.What I am saying is that all women should get the same rights and insist on their rights; only than they can safegurd each other's rights.
As you say already there is shortage of eligible ones ... and then what is left are the hypocrites.
Best regards
farida
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Salam,
I am using example of two incidents when these famous men were publically known to be married yet they got the mistress ...for what ever reason money etc .. both women, mistress and wife seem to stick with such an adulterer because he is rich and famous etc that goes to say a lot about three of them.
The stats for marriages that involve subtance addiction show that women stick with the partners who are the additic much more than men do... I think this points back to the idea of "male draconian interpretation" in life general..
peace
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Salam,
Are you implying that men are more horny.. ?Farida, do you think women cheat less than men? I remember seeing a report in this past year that said married women tend to cheat more than married men... ofcourse these so called 'studies' can be made with any bent.. but wondering your views... plus what makes a liberated women?
peace.. peace
Women are less so. The point is, men don't worry what they're going into, but women do worry about the opposite.
In any case, unfettered polygyny is just as bad as lack of. What about wartime?
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I believe for you the key words for you are that "I don't feel right about it.. " not more than anything more need to be said or forced on you regarding the subject...
but at what point will one go to force thier way of life onto others?
at the same time what I see in my relationship my grandmother holds with her husband and other wife.. I can understand where they do (and have been for a long time) feel right about it and how it works for them... They all get the attention and support they need.. and they share a life together based on those needs and wants... of course the two wifes do not live in the same house but will meet with eachother on occasion..
Br. Mehdi,
I see where you are coming from when you talk about forcing someone's lifestyle on another, and if polygyny works for someone (though, I can't, for the life of me, imagine how), then there should be no compulsion on them. I can't help but agree with you on that point.
Are you saying a married woman who is married to a man get married to another woman.. basicly are you talking about gay marriage or a woman who has multiple husbands? Please let me know... or if even if you think there is a difference...
I meant a married woman getting married to another man. But you make a good point... her getting married to another woman would be like... a bonus for her husband... more happiness, sharing and caring.
OPF may mean one thing... and there also maybe others who thing another... no matter what.. there is no question that it does happen.. legal or otherwise.. the state of Utah in the US would be a good case study... the Quran puts safeguards on it... meaning... it sets criteria to follow... I see this in my grandmothers case... some may disagree about what they are doing... but wouldn't be able to disagree weather it's working or not...
Might I ask specifically what those safeguards are?
Peace
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I am afraid modern war may kill very evenly. Bomb cities, bomb villages. More or less dead of both sexes might even.
I talked about statistics, because things today are very complex and very mixed, one can hardly isolate a factor as a single cause of something.
How is the woman who gets the attention of a man going to know whether the man, who may be married but she doesn't yet know, or even if she knows, is not her real possibility of getting a partner? She doesn't know how many more eligible men are left, of what kind they are. I suppose that marriage or contacts agencies are the places where you can get an idea of that, but I don't know that all that many people use them. Somehow it doesn't appeal much.
Again, I think that is what Farida is meaning, being bad is so easy for men, that only those really interested in being good are able to resist the easy way to "get what they can". They don't risk loosing much, whereas women do, so if they don't have real moral principles or will, therefore there is no reason for them not to engage in whatever pleases them at any given moment and there is no reason for them either to hold on to real engagements and be faithful. That is also probably the case of married women who may cheat on their husbands. But this may be outside the scope of the thread.
Salaam
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Salaam
For now I'm only using the example of two modern women Mrs Clinton and Mrs Archer who are both educated and liberated women. What stopped them from doing what their husbands did? Why are women different from men ???
I tell you in giving you receive, because if you give the same right to the other woman and she insist on her right to be taken as a wife , than clearly she is not cheaply avalible for fun only and that is when its less likely that many men would cheat as taking more wives means more responsibilty and likely more children which is not easy.
Polygony has been allowed in traditional Muslim countries but very few had taken two wives ..its only when they struck oil in the middle east that you see them exploiting this.
There are some cults who tried a culture of sharing husband and wife but this fad has not taken off. People still like to stick with the old couple-concept. ....As OPF said Qur'an only puts safegurdsBest regards
Sis. farida,
Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Archer. Funny that sister huruf mentioned that "an adulterer is meant for an adultress and vice versa". Come to think of it, why would they stand by cheating husbands? Can it be that they were also guilty of some level indiscretion which the world was not aware about? Or maybe because it is a better form of revenge because the wives would alway hold that against them and can actually blackmail them over it? Maybe they had some other ulterior motives. Who knows?
Peace
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Peace
If you can not deal justly with them than only one (not exact quote) AND dealing justly is not easy its TOUGH
SalaamIt's 43.
"And if you feared that you not be just/equitable to the orphans, so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you will not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that will be more suitable to prevent you from injustice."
On top of fearing injustice, orphans are involved for this verse to be applicable. Can you imagine how rare that particular situation is? And Ms. Symonds doesn't even come close to qualifying for marriage to a married man.
Peace
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Salam,
ofcourse these so called 'studies' can be made with any bent.. but wondering your views... plus what makes a liberated women?
peace.. peace
Salaam again
At least two of my replies got lost in transaction so I will try againAre you implying that men are more horny.. ?
No man are not content.
I remember seeing a report in this past year that said married women tend to cheat more than married men...
Women when happily married and content do not cheat on their husband where as men do ..don?t worry about studies just check ?seeking love? websites and you will find quite a few men admitting that they are happily married, yet want a bit of fun on the side? they are taking advantage of the availability of women
Women do cheat when they are cheated on and s.c. liberated women are now trying to outdo men by going to male striptease etc but still their number is less over all.
The sad reality is that women are generally romantic and seek love and are happy with a one to one relationship, even if they can have lots of men; one example was Princess Diana
Regrds -
It's 43.
"And if you feared that you not be just/equitable to the orphans, so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you will not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that will be more suitable to prevent you from injustice."
On top of fearing injustice, orphans are involved for this verse to be applicable. Can you imagine how rare that particular situation is? And Ms. Symonds doesn't even come close to qualifying for marriage to a married man.
Peace
Salaam
Thank you for 43 reference, its late here however I must replyCan you imagine how rare that particular situation is?
Yes I can
Large numbers of men are killed in Iraq war leaving many women in need of protection and the above verse is mainly to support those vulnerable women, as well as to hinder women like Ms Symonds from selling themselvs cheaply.Best regards
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Sis. farida,
Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Archer. Funny that sister huruf mentioned that "an adulterer is meant for an adultress and vice versa". Come to think of it, why would they stand by cheating husbands? Can it be that they were also guilty of some level indiscretion which the world was not aware about? Or maybe because it is a better form of revenge because the wives would alway hold that against them and can actually blackmail them over it? Maybe they had some other ulterior motives. Who knows?
Peace
Allahu Aalim!
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Salam all,
Br. Sharp001,
I meant a married woman getting married to another man. But you make a good point... her getting married to another woman would be like... a bonus for her husband... more happiness, sharing and caring.
I guess it could actually benefit all involved.. at least that's how my grandmother's situation is.. I'm very sure that it's not a easy thing to deal with though.. what makes it difficult is the level of understanding and especially the amount of truthfulness that the individuals involved have with themselfs (personal, internal) first and foremost and then of coure the mutual conditions with all involved... This isn't much different than monogmy! In the sense of 43 we know that there are many men who can't even deal justly with a single wife and vice versa..!
On top of fearing injustice, orphans are involved for this verse to be applicable. Can you imagine how rare that particular situation is? And Ms. Symonds doesn't even come close to qualifying for marriage to a married man.
not sure if this fits into what you're saying.. but would this be the same as women who have children from dead beat men who abandon them? Please let me know...
Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Archer. Funny that sister huruf mentioned that "an adulterer is meant for an adultress and vice versa". Come to think of it, why would they stand by cheating husbands? Can it be that they were also guilty of some level indiscretion which the world was not aware about? Or maybe because it is a better form of revenge because the wives would alway hold that against them and can actually blackmail them over it? Maybe they had some other ulterior motives. Who knows?
That's definitly something to ponder.. I wonder how she would be doing in her race for president.. had she divorced him...?!
Sis Farida,
If you can not deal justly with them than only one (not exact quote) AND dealing justly is not easy its TOUGH
It can be just as tough to deal with just a single spouse. The divorce rates speak for that, I think. There are certain apects that need to align for any good marriage to work.. if they don't no matter monogmous or poly... they will simply not work or be misreable..
No man are not content.
How much do you believe physiology might fit into all of this?
Women when happily married and content do not cheat on their husband where as men do ..dont worry about studies just check seeking love websites and you will find quite a few men admitting that they are happily married, yet want a bit of fun on the side they are taking advantage of the availability of women
Yes.. I know.. those studies are made alot of times just for their shock value. I'll take your word for it.. something are better left alone..
Women do cheat when they are cheated on and s.c. liberated women are now trying to outdo men by going to male striptease etc but still their number is less over all.
not sure if I'd call that liberated for either man or woman.. ???
The sad reality is that women are generally romantic and seek love and are happy with a one to one relationship, even if they can have lots of men; one example was Princess Diana
I believe many men do too and even though vice versa in having lots of the other etc.. Love is not lust... Love is not always recipicated either... so it could be love for one and lust for the other.. either side of fence... it happens..
peace.. peace
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this woman is not a victim, she is a willing participant... she milked men for what she could, and when things weren't going her way she blew the whistle
anyone who thinks that one gender cheats any more or any less than the other is simply fooling themself