POLYGAMY NOT THERE IN QURAN?
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I have just read the link to Yaseen. In the way of condoning or not condoning poligamy, I have to say that we have talked so much about all this and about this and that other aya, that one is already numbed, so that in fact what has most impressed me in that article is an oblique indication the one about inheritance, where no mention is made if there is more than one survivor wife. If poligamy is foreseen, it seems not to have been foreseen in dealing with this aspect. I find this fact as being quite significant. But I look forward to comments.
Another thing about Yaseen article is about 4.127. Counter to what he says, grmatically, of course, yataamaa an nisaa', as Samia pointed out, cannot be women orphans, but orphans of the nisaa'. What I wonder is whether this nisaa' is talking not about sex but about condition that is, the vulnerable and not necessarily the women, and again also in 4.3.
My humble opinion is that we shouldn't get fixed on fixed and perpetually upholdable situations, but look at what there really is and think consistently in a quranic spirit. We are not bound to reproduce anything, but to reflect and struggle to create whatever our lights and the Light with the Qur'an guidance we may divise as most appropriate and beneficial conditions right where we are, which may pose quite different challenges from those met previosuly and which, at any rate, since we didn't live at any other time, for us are new, and where we live is what we may know best and where we can act.
In another thread, OPF, spoke of poliandry, I put forward the case of the male excess due to selective abortions. That is real and a real problem. I am most certainly no propounding poliandry, but just to indicate that we don't have to be so uptight as to what goes on and what can be done to improve societies. I will open a thread.
Salaam
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Salaam farida. In some instances a mere apology is not enough. For instance, Muslims acting in accordance with the following translations of 424 become criminals and deserve the punsihments international courts of justice sentence them to
Let?s assume that Muhammad the Hamas militant agrees with these translations.
He is in Jarusalem, where Muslims and Jews are engaged in street fights. Muhammad takes Golda and her husband captive and marries his captive in accordance with these translations, which make God say that a Muslim is allowed to marry his captive even if she is married.
Golda?s family appeal to the international court of justice. What happens?
Salaam brook,
If I was representing Golda's family I would first ask if Golda consented to that marriage and was not willing to go back to her husband. According to the Qur'an you clearly can not inherit women against their will.
IMHO we are not to limit our arguments to one verse; we need to base our decisions on the body of Ayat concerning the rights of mankind.
Those who think that men have some sort of superior status because they are allowed to take more wives should carefully consider the burden associated with taking responsibility of a wife/wives. In the Quran men are given greater responsibility rather than greater position.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
Best regards
farida -
I have been following this very long thread and I would like to pose the following question to anyone that would like to answer it
Since The Reading is clear, complete and fully explained, can you point me to the ayats that outline the details for polygamy? If polygamy is sanctioned by The God, then all the details MUST be in His Book. We should not have to speculate or conjecture.
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I have been following this very long thread and I would like to pose the following question to anyone that would like to answer it
Since The Reading is clear, complete and fully explained, can you point me to the ayats that outline the details for polygamy? If polygamy is sanctioned by The God, then all the details MUST be in His Book. We should not have to speculate or conjecture.
I was going to leave this thread alone...but posts like this encourage me to answer. O0
Since the Reading is clear, complete and fully explained, can you point me to the ayats that outline the details for forbidding polygyny? (Im assuming that is what you meant unless you want polandry included also?) Also, can you show me the ayaat that detail how we are supposed to eat also? And don't forget how we are to walk in the house...I mean which foot first? etc. etc. etc. brickwall
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Well, your assumption is wrong...and we all know what happens when you assume...
I was very clear as to what I am asking for, that is, if The God has sanctioned polygamy, can anyone quote the ayats that deal with setting forth the details for polygamy?
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Salaams TBA,
Al Quran doesn't sanction polygamy anywhere. So the details of it certainly would not be found therein. Al Quran does allow POLYGYNY. All the details necessary for it are contained within the book.
Are you able to answer my previous questions though?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Well, your assumption is wrong...and we all know what happens when you assume...
I was very clear as to what I am asking for, that is, if The God has sanctioned polygamy, can anyone quote the ayats that deal with setting forth the details for polygamy?
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Since you are the teacher and I am the student I want to be clear in my understanding, so please be patience with me as I ask these two questions
Since Al Quran doesnt sanction polygamy anywhere
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Can you tell me the difference between polygamy and polygyny; and
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If you say all the details necessary for polygyny are contained within the Book, can you point me to these details?
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Salaams TBA,
Since you are the teacher and I am the student I want to be clear in my understanding, so please be patience with me as I ask these two questions
First, I am not your teacher and you are not my student. We are all here on this forum to learn from each other.
Second, I am being patient just by participating in this dialogue. If I was not, I would not respond.
Since Al Quran doesnt sanction polygamy anywhere
- Can you tell me the difference between polygamy and polygyny; and
If you had followed all of the posts in this thread and their links as you had stated, then you would have run across the following
po?lyg?a?my(p-lg-m)
n.- The condition or practice of having more than one spouse at one time. Also called plural marriage.
po?lyg?y?ny(p-lj-n)
n.- The condition or practice of having more than one wife at one time.
pol?y?an?dry(pl-ndr)
n.- The condition or practice of having more than one husband at one time.
- If you say all the details necessary for polygyny are contained within the Book, can you point me to these details?
These points are also covered in detail in this thread. Polygyny is not very different from monogamy with the exception that you apply it to more than one. What you are asking is equivalent to asking "show in the book the details of how you are to deal with having more than one child (or one brother, sister, aunt, etc.)?" Do you understand how this question makes little sense?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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First, the teacher/student thing was said in jest...
Second, let me get this straight..."polygamy, more than one spouse at one time, plural marriage. polygyny, more than one wife at one time."
- Therefore, polygyny is NOT considered a plural marriage. Correct or not?
- Therefore, is it correct to say that polygamy can be more than one wife at one time, plural marriage and polygyny can be more than one spouse at one time?
Third, there you go assuming again about what I am asking...what did I just tell you about your assuming...? Could you please just give me two ayats that point to the details concerning polygyny (since we are speaking about more than one wife).
Fourth, since polygyny is not very different from monogamy (whatever that means) with the exception that you apply it to more than one, what exactly is the application process that you "apply"?
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Salaams TBA,
Are you serious with these questions? You have to either be joking or completely lost on this issue and what you read in this thread. I not gonna do flips around basic things. If you want to play gymnastics, I suggest using a trampoline and not me in this forum.
As Salaamu Alaikum, jedi
First, the teacher/student thing was said in jest...
Second, let me get this straight..."polygamy, more than one spouse at one time, plural marriage. polygyny, more than one wife at one time."
- Therefore, polygyny is NOT considered a plural marriage. Correct or not?
- Therefore, is it correct to say that polygamy can be more than one wife at one time, plural marriage and polygyny can be more than one spouse at one time?
Third, there you go assuming again about what I am asking...what did I just tell you about your assuming...? Could you please just give me two ayats that point to the details concerning polygyny (since we are speaking about more than one wife).
Fourth, since polygyny is not very different from monogamy (whatever that means) with the exception that you apply it to more than one, what exactly is the application process that you "apply"?
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I keep asking a simple question...just say you don't know any ayats that point to the details concerning polygyny! I don't need all the other fluff you write that attempts to disguise your inability to answer my question.
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To All Participants of the Forum
For the record, this is my understanding of Q.41-14 are saying.
First, let me say that my understanding of the root N-K-H is not "marry". The reason for this understanding is because based on the etymology of this root word, my understanding is that the root word "NKH" originally meant "tie" or "knot" or "contract" or "cement". This word has come to mean "marry" over time.
Second, therefore using the method of "tasrif" and looking in the Quran for similar usages and substituting them for "contract", i have come to the understanding that N-K-H could mean "contract", any contract. However, looking at the context of the ayats when read together, will determine whether the subject is referring to a marriage tie/knot/contract or a social tie/knot/contract.
Therefore, using the above premises, the ayats 41-14, are taken out of context and it is my understanding that if you look at the context, (41-14)
Verse 1 is the opening of a warning to fear the God in all matter for which persons nominated as guardians over orphaned children and women are responsible, for which they will be called to questions and give accounts.
Verse 2 makes it clear what is forbidden to practice with regard to the property of their wards.
Verse 3 has nothing to do with marriage. It refers to the guardianship of these orphans and how to manage and protect their financial affairs. This ayat speaks to social guidance with respect to guardianship. Given the context, nikah means contract in this verse, a social contract and not a marriage contract. The guardian could enter into a contract to take care of groups of orphans, if the guardian is financially able to do so, however, if they fear that they could not financially manage these groups of orphans, which would mean that there would be some inequity and as a result, injustices, then they are to take care of only one.
Specifically, the guardian could enter into a social tie/knot/contract to distribute/dispersed ("tuqsitoo" (when appropriate) to the groups of orphans their property, however, if they feared that they will deviate/decline/turned aside ("taAAdiloo" from the right course, then only one. This is better so that the guardian does not "tuqloo".
Verse 4 has nothing to do with dower, a marriage gift, (ujr, in Arabic, see 3350), which is an obligatory marriage gift (see Q.2 236-237 & 3350 ? Fa-Ra-Dha). As a result of the above contractual arrangement, these truthful women are to be given a "nihlah", a free gift, and if they choose, they could give back a portion, or keep the entire gift.
Verse 5 instructs the guardian not to hand over the properties to the ward(s) in their custodial care, but feed and clothe them out of it and give them a good education.
Verse 6 instructs the guardian to supervise the orphan children until they reach the age of marriage, then, if they find them sound of judgment, they are to hand over their properties to them. They are not to spend it extravagantly before the orphans grow up. A guardian who is rich should abstain from taking fees, but a poor one may consume some reasonable fees. When properties are handed over by a guardian to orphans it should be done in the presence of witnesses and let the fear of the God be enough to keep their accounts properly.
Verse 7 instructs how the shares in the property should be apportioned.
Verse 8 instructs the guardian, when the time came for the distribution of the property, whoever was present at the division, at that time, even if they were not entitled to a share, the guardian were to give them something out of it and they should be treated kindly.
Verse 9 instructs those who were concerned about the future of their offspring, to make a will in clear words with the fear of the God.
Verse 10 gives clear warning about those guardians, at that time, who abused their responsibility.
Verses 11-12 begins instructions on how WE are to divide our estates.
Verses 13-14 informs us that this is the God?s guidance and whomever disobeys His guidance will be punished severely.
It is also important to note that Verse 8 is important because when you to look at the verb "HaDhaRa" (the verb is past perfect - "was present". This might mean that when the God refers to "O people" ("nas" in the beginning verse, He is speaking to "those people who were present during the time of the Messenger addressing a specific issue" not necessarily all of mankind ("insan".
What I was taught in the past was that this Book speaks to all of mankind and everything pertains to us now. However, I understand that NOT to be the case now. For example, the God uses different words to address different groups of people, for example, referring to all of "mankind "(insan 29 ", referring to "the people" (nas 342", those who trust (amanu 3353). The God also refers to the "Bani Israel" and the Messenger's "kaum" (his nationality of people), the Arabs at that time, and to the "ummah" nation of all peoples, etc.
For example, in 3353, when the God says "O you who trust" enter not the houses of the Prophet..." This is an example of the God speaking to a specific group of individuals who trust DURING THE TIME OF THE MESSENGER. Not us, even though we are trusting with the Book today. How are we going to enter not the houses of the Prophet? There are many verses that provide a lesson for those who trust and give us a glimpse of what occurred in the past.
In Verse 8 the verb "HaDhaRa" is in the past perfect tense. It is specific to those people at that time to address an issue at that time. It has nothing to do with the traditional "marriage" with an obligatory marriage gift.
Moreover, since this Quran is perfect and complete, I cannot find where we are told to repeat this behavior and to continue the same practice now. It is important to read the verses and see WHO is being addressed in the different ayats and about WHAT issue.
I would appreciate all comments.
I trust in the God Alone. Salaamun,
TheBookAlone
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Peace all,
The above understanding seems plausible at a cursory glance, but on deeper study, it has many irreconcilable problems.
First, let me say that my understanding of the root N-K-H is not "marry". The reason for this understanding is because based on the etymology of this root word, my understanding is that the root word "NKH" originally meant "tie" or "knot" or "contract" or "cement". This word has come to mean "marry" over time.
This understanding contradicts al-qur'aan. The root N-K-H has been used to mean "marry" in al-qur'aan, according to the context, thus it did have a meaning of "marry" at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan, and did not come to mean "marry" over time.
Second, therefore using the method of "tasrif" and looking in the Quran for similar usages and substituting them for "contract", i have come to the understanding that N-K-H could mean "contract", any contract. However, looking at the context of the ayats when read together, will determine whether the subject is referring to a marriage tie/knot/contract or a social tie/knot/contract.
How did one know that N-K-H could mean "contract" to start with ? Did it occur to one in a dream ? Of course one found out from Classical Arabic dictionaries that N-K-H could mean "contract". The same Classical Arabic dictionaries also say that it could mean "marry", especially when mentioned in the context of a person.
In fact, according to Lane Lexicon, N-K-H can only signify "marriage" or "coitus" when mentioned in context of a human. (reference Lane Lexicon, Volume 8, page 102 at PRL under the root Nun-Kaf-Ha http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
Thus, even though it could mean "contract" alone, in the qur'aanic context N-K-H always occurs in the context of a human and can only mean "marriage" in ALL occurrences. From PRL
Nun-Kaf-Ha = to tie, make a knot, contract, to marry, marriage.
nakaha vb. (1)
perf. act. 422, 3349
impf. act. 2221, 2230, 2232, 422, 425, 4127, 243, 243, 3353, 6010
impv. 43, 425
n.vb. 2235, 2237, 46, 2433, 2460ankaha vb. (4)
impf. act. 2221, 2827
impv. 2432istankaha vb. (10) impf. act. 3350
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 101, 102
The root used to signify "contract" in al-qur'aan is 3-Q-D (see under the root Ayn-Qaf-Dal in PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm). From PRL
Ayn-Qaf-Dal = to tie in a knot, make a knot, strike a bargain, contract, make a compact, enter into an obligation, bind, judgement, consideration of one's affairs, management, promise of obedience or vow of allegiance.
aqada vb. (1) perf. act. 433, 589
aqd n.m. (pl. uqud) 51
uqdah n.f. (pl. uqad) 2235, 2237, 2027, 1134
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 5, pages 389, 390, 391, 392
In 2235 and 2237, 3-Q-D occurs right next to N-K-H, thus meaning "contract/knot of marriage".
Verse 3 has nothing to do with marriage. It refers to the guardianship of these orphans and how to manage and protect their financial affairs. This ayat speaks to social guidance with respect to guardianship. Given the context, nikah means contract in this verse, a social contract and not a marriage contract. The guardian could enter into a contract to take care of groups of orphans, if the guardian is financially able to do so, however, if they fear that they could not financially manage these groups of orphans, which would mean that there would be some inequity and as a result, injustices, then they are to take care of only one.
The disbursement of inheritance is normally done by the judicial branch of the government, which follows the will of the deceased and/or the qur'aanic injunctions of inheritance, which does not require entering into a "social contract" with the orphans or their mothers. What if everyone elected the 3rd possibility in 43, which the author of the quote conveniently forgets in the entire post, i.e. AW MA MALAKAT AYMAANUKUM. This category obviously does not include the orphans in the context of 43, so in that situation when everyone elects this 3rd possibility, then who is going to take care of the orphans and the widows ? Of course this renders the understanding of the author of the quote nonsensical.
Please focus on the words in red in the quote above. The word "guardian" itself means "the one who entered into a legal social contract to take care of another", thus "guardian" itself signifies a kind of "social contract".
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
guard?i?an /grdin/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun- a person who guards, protects, or preserves.
- Law. a person who is entrusted by law with the care of the person or property, or both, of another, as a minor or someone legally incapable of managing his or her own affairs.
The phrase highlighted in red in the quote above would thus mean "the one who entered into a social contract to take care of another, could enter into a contract to take care of....." according to the understanding of the author of the quote, which would be nonsensical.
It is also important to note that Verse 8 is important because when you to look at the verb "HaDhaRa" (the verb is past perfect - "was present". This might mean that when the God refers to "O people" ("nas" in the beginning verse, He is speaking to "those people who were present during the time of the Messenger addressing a specific issue" not necessarily all of mankind ("insan".
48 And if the distribution is attended by the relatives and the orphans and the needy, then you shall give them part of it and say to them a kind saying.
What we hear in 48 is that IF the relatives, orphans, and needy, are present at the time of the distribution, then give them part of it, and has nothing to do with who is being addressed in 41 onwards. From this how can one jump to the conclusion that "yaa ayyuhannaas" in 41 are only the ones who were present ? ???
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Brother Tanveer
I have one comment
"He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are clear - they are the basis of the Book - and others are similar. Then those in whose hearts is deviation follow the part of it which is similar, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save the God, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding." (Q.37)
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Salaams all,
Im not surprised that this was your only response, since you are the one trying to make "allegorical" understandings from the ayat. Of course your hypothesis are just that....hopes, guesses and wishes that are erroroneous. Glad Tanveer took care of it so that I didn't have to spend time addressing all of those flaws.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother Tanveer
I have one comment
"He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are clear - they are the basis of the Book - and others are similar. Then those in whose hearts is deviation follow the part of it which is similar, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save the God, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding." (Q.37)
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Peace.
From my understanding, marrying more than one wife is in the context that it is for the intention of taking care of the orphans. If someone marries a second or third or fourth wife and they do not have children I do not see the justification or if they marry someone with children and the children have living fathers... I do not see the quranic justification.
God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and mary and jenny and stacy.
YTV
Allahu Ellem
Where is the quranic justification to marry more than one wife if the wife doesn't have kids, or the wives kids have a living father?
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Salaams YTV,
I respectfully disagree. If you want to know why, re-read all of my posts on this issue.
The Quran even alludes to the Prophet having previously married women simply for their goodness/beauty. And who really knows how many wives he had. We only know from Al Quran that he had more than two.
As Salaamu Alaikum, group
Peace.
From my understanding, marrying more than one wife is in the context that it is for the intention of taking care of the orphans. If someone marries a second or third or fourth wife and they do not have children I do not see the justification or if they marry someone with children and the children have living fathers... I do not see the quranic justification.
God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and mary and jenny and stacy.
YTV
Allahu Ellem
Where is the quranic justification to marry more than one wife if the wife doesn't have kids, or the wives kids have a living father?
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Since men and women are equal, as stated in the Quran, does this mean that women can have multiple husbands???
if not why?
Who said men and women are equal in their roles as assigned by Allah? nope group whatever
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Who hypno said handshake men !and yes women eat are giveup equal bravo confused in elektro their yeah roles jedi as peace assigned muscle by & Allah? brickwall
3195
Khalifa
Their Lord responded to them "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.