Face cover: God's only flaw?
-
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
That's not true.
Lisaanul 3arab is hesitant about it. It mentions a hadith where the word khimaar is used...for men. This means the hadith literature doe not have this word used specifically for women. It also mentions " a woman of nice scent".
Al- Sihaah's only contribution is a woman good in "khimra", without explaining what it means.
Maqaayeesil Lugha Same as above, except that it explains it as has a nice "khimaar". Either it is contrary to Lisaanulearab, or it is not, and for ML "khimaar" means scent .
Al Muheet Its only entry is that khimaar mean "naseef" (which also goes under many explanations mainly that it's something like a sarong, which its name indicates naseef like nisf means half).Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.
-
Does the Qur'an say to use a particular piece of clothing? Does it say to cover the bosom? Does it say to cover the bosom in a particular way? Does it say in this particular expresion to cover anything beside the bosom? Does it say to create a new piece of clothing for believers in order to cover the bosom? Does it say to use a common piece of clothing which can be used in different ways and that therefore required no mending or transformation in order to cover the bosom with it and therefore avoided the expense on new clothing? Does it say that it matters that if the bossom is covered with any other piece of clothing it is no good? Is it legitimate to understand that all muminat in the whole world must wear khumur (whatever this word designates) and not anything else in order to cover their bossom. If a particular piece of clothing is really determinant in this aya, what shape had the khumur in question? ?Were they like a hat, like a casquete, like the old church veils of catholic women, like a turban? Were they may be like mexican rebozos, or like classic shawls that can be used to wrap onself around at will against cold or for dressing up, for protection against the elements, etc.? How big were they? were they in different sizes or one size? Is there any mention of this piece of clothing contemporaneous of the revelation of the Qur'an apart from the Qur'an?
Salaam
-
Dear IQO I think you missed this post by
Waqas
Also, from my experience of the forum, there seems to be a prevalent myth that the head cover is not in AQ. That is not entirely accurate. It would be more correct to say that there is no 100% clear commandment that women must wear the head cover, but a reasonable case can be made for it using AQ
He has exactly mentioned what is the prevailing thought at this forum of majority.
I agree with his post except the stating that "there is no 100% clear commandment" then it must not be QURAN.IQO
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!Even if it is then what? are you sure Allah means this use of Khimar?
We have to go into the history and the culture, and try to understand why was this ordered and then by Ijtihaad decide weather it is necessary now?
-
That's not true.
Sure it's true. I didn't say that like any other word it can't have more than one meaning...but the clear consensus is that is primarily is understand as a headscarf. You can doubt that all you want, but the clear evidence as already been presented. And you know it has.
Lisaanul 3arab is hesitant about it. It mentions a hadith where the word khimaar is used...for men. This means the hadith literature doe not have this word used specifically for women. It also mentions " a woman of nice scent".
First, I never said "WOMAN'S" headscarf....I said "headscarf". Whether it is used for men or women in Lisaanul 3arab is irrevelant because it is clearly used for the women being spoken to in the ayat in question from Al Quran. Other meanings that don't fit the context of 2431 are irrevelant unless you can show how it can fit the context.
Al- Sihaah's only contribution is a woman good in "khimra", without explaining what it means.
Then it has no significance. I'm not gonna look it up there to see if you left off anything, but unless you have something to provide that says he DOESN'T ever consider it a headscarf, it's irrelevant.
Maqaayeesil Lugha Same as above, except that it explains it as has a nice "khimaar". Either it is contrary to Lisaanulearab, or it is not, and for ML "khimaar" means scent .
You can't just say that ML is contrary to Lisannulearab, explain your logic if there is some. I don't see it contrary at all. A khimaar can be a headscarf for men or women, but only women were mentioned to continue to use it to cover their chest area with by Allah. There is no refuting that, no matter what you think "khimaar" is.
So are you saying that 2431 is saying to draw over their chest area with their nice scent? )
Al Muheet Its only entry is that khimaar mean "naseef" (which also goes under many explanations mainly that it's something like a sarong, which its name indicates naseef like nisf means half).
You already explained your understanding of naseef, but what is your point her in regards to the context of khimaar's use in 2431? How are you using this statement as anything to refute that khimaar is a headscarf?
Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.
As you said, "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar".
Since we are being evasive.....what is this other word that you say khumur is the plural of...AND MORE IMPORTANTLY....WHAT DOES THIS WORD MEAN SINCE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MEAN HEADSCARF?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
Salaams Wakas,
You asked one basic question. "Where does it say that "khumur" means "headscarves".
Don't confuse me not giving a response to each line you wrote as not being able to answer the ONLY one question that you asked during that post. It just wasn't necessary since the answer is so obvious...but to help you
Khimaar means headscarf. Khumur is the plural of khimaar, which by the definition of PLURAL means that it means "headscarves". This is not rocket science.
If you want to claim that Khumur is also the plural of another word, whatever the case...you CAN NOT say that it is not the plural of khimaar, which means headscarf; therefore headscarves.
So as I said before, the rest of what you said was meaningless jiborish.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO,
Do not confuse being unable to answer my questions as that must mean they are meaningless/jiborish.
-
Salaams Wakas,
You asked one basic question. "Where does it say that "khumur" means "headscarves".
Don't confuse me not giving a response to each line you wrote as not being able to answer the ONLY one question that you asked during that post. It just wasn't necessary since the answer is so obvious...but to help you
Khimaar means headscarf. Khumur is the plural of khimaar, which by the definition of PLURAL means that it means "headscarves". This is not rocket science.
If you want to claim that Khumur is also the plural of another word, whatever the case...you CAN NOT say that it is not the plural of khimaar, which means headscarf; therefore headscarves.
Peace.
Okay..if there are two different meanings for a word, which one makes more sense in its usage? If we have one meaning headscarf and one meaning any covering, if we take IQO and we say we will use the headscarf definition and the word is the plural, how is it logical for women to take their headscarves plural and cover their chest? why would a woman wear more than one headscarf at a time? Is that really logical?
YTV
So as I said before, the rest of what you said was meaningless jiborish.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
-
As Salaamu Alaika Raj-ah,
Dear IQO I think you missed this post by
Waqas
He has exactly mentioned what is the prevailing thought at this forum of majority.
I agree with his post except the stating that "there is no 100% clear commandment" then it must not be QURAN.You are right, there is a clear COMMANDMENT in Al Quran regarding the use of "khumur" for believing women. (other women are not addressed there). "Bikhumurihinna" clearly means "with their khumur". So the issue becomes what is khumur and how to do the commandment with it. But the commandment itself can not be questioned. Why is Allah so specific in this commandment for believing women only? (not believing or non believing men, or non believing women)
IQO
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!Even if it is then what? are you sure Allah means this use of Khimar?
What other possible use of "khumur" could fit the meaning? Allah says to take the best meaning from Al Quran, He knows that all words have many meanings and that is why we have definitions in dictionaries. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Allah is going to use the most common use and understanding of the word to the people being addressed to benefit them in understanding.
It is those who choose to render this very SPECIFIC commandment from Allah to believing women, MEANINGLESS, that try to make the word "khumur" mean something very general...so that in essence, there is no real command in 2431 except to not walk around with your breast out; which is ridiculous. I think it makes those who want separate themselves as far away from sunnism as possible more comfortable..and women who don't like to cover, it makes them feel that they are still obeying Allah, even if they just wear a bra. Why else would people go to such great lengths to try to say that "khumur" is not headscarves when it clearly DOES mean that primarily, even if you can find other weaker meanings for the word?
We have to go into the history and the culture, and try to understand why was this ordered and then by Ijtihaad decide weather it is necessary now?
I personally don't have to go to history and culture to try to understand why this was ordered. As a person of faith in Allah, I only have to know that He ordered it and accept that it is to be obeyed, willingly by those who say they have trusting faith in Him.
So there can be NO DECIDING whether or not it is relevant now because Allah's commandments in Al Quran are for all time as far as I am concerned as a believer. I meantion in a previous post what can be misunderstood about the command, and I gave my response as to why I understand it the way that I do. I will repost it here for you for ease of reading it
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
-
Salaams YTV,
Headscarves is plural in the ayat because women is also plural. If headscarf was not plural, how would one scarf be used by ALL the believing women? ???
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace.
Okay..if there are two different meanings for a word, which one makes more sense in its usage? If we have one meaning headscarf and one meaning any covering, if we take IQO and we say we will use the headscarf definition and the word is the plural, how is it logical for women to take their headscarves plural and cover their chest? why would a woman wear more than one headscarf at a time? Is that really logical?
YTV
-
Salaam IQO
You are completely missing the point. Just as a reminder, my comment was about you talking of a consensus. There is no consesus. For xample (of you missing the point) look at this comment of yours
So are you saying that 2431 is saying to draw over their chest area with their nice scent?
nope
I am saying that if a dictionary enters "khimaar" only in this context, then you can hardly speak of consensus. And it is not one or two, but three dictionaries.
I'm not gonna look it up there to see if you left off anything
Why should you? You have already looked up ALL classical dictionaries and found there was a consensus. You can tell without any extra effort from you what I've left off.
-
Salaams Samia,
You know what said and that is why you answered the way you did. The overall consensus by almost ALL arabic dictionaries and lexicons is that "khimaar" means "headscarf". That's it primary meaning; whether or not any other meanings can be consider. And I am not talking about all words derived from the root of KH-M-R.
I didn't miss your point, you are diverting attention from the important facts and issues. The dictionaries you mentioned, I didn't see that they gave a different definition of khimaar that didn't or couldn't include it as a headscarf.
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? hmm
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam IQO
You are completely missing the point. Just as a reminder, my comment was about you talking of a consensus. There is no consesus. For xample (of you missing the point) look at this comment of yours
nope
I am saying that if a dictionary enters "khimaar" only in this context, then you can hardly speak of consensus. And it is not one or two, but three dictionaries.
Why should you? You have already looked up ALL classical dictionaries and found there was a consensus. You can tell without any extra effort from you what I've left off.
-
Peace.
-
How many other times is this word or variation of this word used?
-
If we go with IQO and say it means headscarf, then where do we get the justification that it means also cover the chest with the headscarf or does the verse imply that the headscarf is now to be used over the chest? Or does it say take your headscarf and also cover the chest with it? or does it simply say now take your headcover and cover the chest?
-
Knowing which Arabic words are used would be highly beneficial, since if it says take the headcover and cover your chest this implies that way they used the cover was wrong and they should now place it over there chests and not on the head.
-
But if it says take your headscarf and ALSO cover the chest then this would imply ??? that they covered both. even if they said also cover the chest does that somehow imply we are supposed to cover our head? Where is the clear command to cover the head? how can we imply? from my understanding when God gives orders it is direct. like do not eat the flesh or blood of pig. It is clearly stated it isn't something that is implied, correct? Why would commandments be ambiguous? and who was this verse talking about..tell your women...what women? wives? believers? all women? who?
YTV
-
-
Salaams YTV,
Please read this portion carefully
Quote from ImamQuranonly on December 24, 2007, 024747 PM
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Peace.
-
How many other times is this word or variation of this word used?
-
If we go with IQO and say it means headscarf, then where do we get the justification that it means also cover the chest with the headscarf or does the verse imply that the headscarf is now to be used over the chest? Or does it say take your headscarf and also cover the chest with it? or does it simply say now take your headcover and cover the chest?
-
Knowing which Arabic words are used would be highly beneficial, since if it says take the headcover and cover your chest this implies that way they used the cover was wrong and they should now place it over there chests and not on the head.
-
But if it says take your headscarf and ALSO cover the chest then this would imply ??? that they covered both. even if they said also cover the chest does that somehow imply we are supposed to cover our head? Where is the clear command to cover the head? how can we imply? from my understanding when God gives orders it is direct. like do not eat the flesh or blood of pig. It is clearly stated it isn't something that is implied, correct? Why would commandments be ambiguous? and who was this verse talking about..tell your women...what women? wives? believers? all women? who?
YTV
-
-
I didn't miss your point, you are diverting attention from the important facts and issues. The dictionaries you mentioned, I didn't see that they gave a different definition of khimaar that didn't or couldn't include it as a headscarf.
And this is what I am trying to make you hear THEY DID NOT GIVE ANY OTHER DEFINITION MORE THAN WHAT I STATED, BE IT HEADSCARF OR OTHERWISE.
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? hmm
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Emphasis? You call this "so much emphasis"?
Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.
-
And this is what I am trying to make you hear THEY DID NOT GIVE ANY OTHER DEFINITION MORE THAN WHAT I STATED, BE IT HEADSCARF OR OTHERWISE.
Emphasis? You call this "so much emphasis"?
Quote
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? -
Peace.
I do not feel that answer effectively answered my question. Can you please provide some linguistic terminology that supports your claim that
"headscarf is obligatory"?YTV
-
but the clear consensus is that is primarily is understand as a headscarf.
samia already explained to you that there is no consensus, so to claim that the clear consensus is headscarf is completely unfounded
how many times must it be repeated?
there are certain people who start at the beginning of an issue and say "i wonder what this means... i shall investigate"
and then there are others who say "i wish to promote this viewpoint and now i shall manipulate the language in order to prove myself and my preconceived beliefs correct and bully others into accepting them"
clearly you are showing yourself to be in the second category
-
Then let me explain it to you again, since you can't understand anything unless "SAMIA" tells it to you. Maybe you think that whatever "SAMIA" says is LAW. So I will repeat what I have said again for you
First, let's look at what "consensus" is
Main Entry con?sen?sus
Pronunciation \kn-sen(t)-ss
Function noun
Usage often attributive
Etymology Latin, from consentire
Date 1843
1 a general agreement unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports?from the border ? John Hersey> b the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned <the consensus was to go ahead>Clearly if you had read my posts on the issue thoroughly, you SHOULD have been able to ascertain that I was using consensus in this manner bolded above. For example, I said
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
While I said "ALL", if you notice how I said I used the term, this means that it includes "most of those concerned".
I followed up later by posting part of what was in the link that Wakas gave
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
-
Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
-
Taaj-el-uroos
-
Lataif-ul-Lughat
-
Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
-
Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
-
A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
-
Almufradat by Raghib
-
Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
-
Lane?s Lexicon
-
Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
Samia, your leader I suppose, followed up by saying that she found 2 or 3 dictionaries that didn't define "khimaar" as a headscarf of any kind, be it male or female. Since I don't have those available to me, and she didn't provide pastes of their entire context, I guess for argument sake, we can take her word for it; although I am not inclined to do so 100% knowing how she presents evidence in this forum.
Nevertheless, 3 that doen't mention it as a headscarf (if she is correct), but don't mention it as "NOT A HEADSCARF", definitely don't change the fact that the majority do consider "khimaar" a headscarf! If you want to say that the majority don't consider it a headscarf primarily, then you need to bring at least a minimum of 11 dictionaries that don't include this definition in it.
If you want to also pick on the word "consensus", then feel free to make your feeble arguments; the bottom line is that the MAJORITY of all arabic dictionaries and lexicons agree that "khimaar" is a headscarf.
And as I asked your leader Samia, if the plural of khimaar, "khumur" as used in 2431 is not what you are saying that it means, THEN WHAT OTHER MEANING ARE YOU SAYING THAT IS MEANS? SCENTS? MEN'S HEADSCARVES? WHAT?
All of this dancing around whether "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar" or other words is redundant and ridiculous unless you can show how those other words can fit the context and make sense. The MAJORITY don't consider "khumur" as just "covers" of any kind. Tanveer gave one incident of that. Yet the primary and MAJORITY understanding of this word is "headscarf", speaking of "khimaar", of which "khumur" is the plural.
So your statement that I started off with a preconceived notion is also invalid, cause personally I happen to like women's hair showing, especially long flowing beautiful hair. But this is not about what I like, it is about what Allah has said in Al Quran. I wasn't born or raised muslim in a muslim household, so free flowing hair is all that I knew for most of my life. I don't have issues with hair like some of you seem to have in the opposite, that is in having to show women's hair even if Allah says not to, for reasons that I don't have to understand.
I don't use "sunnah and hadeeth" to derive my understandings from. If I did, I would be debating hijab and not khimaar. I don't have hangups if a bang or pieces of a woman's hair is hanging outside of their "khimaar", Al Quran doesn't get specific about that. I don't have hangups about any woman, quote unquote "muslim or non-muslim" that doesn't wear "khimaar". It really doesn't bother me at all!
But when you sit on a site like this and tell those who are trying to study and learn Al Quran that there is nothing in Al Quran that indicates that a believing women should cover her head, and that "khimaar" means cover your chest, without explaining it properly...well, that's where I throw in my two cents; whether you like it or not. And I really don't care if you like me or my posting style either.
Now, it's obvious that you don't want your wife to wear a headscarf, so don't worry, be happy. And all those women on this site and in the world that don't want to wear a headscarf, DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY! I really don't care! yay
But I am on this forum to discuss what Al Quran means. For that purpose...I stand by what the evidence has shown me and how I have explained the issue of 2431. If you don't like it, well you know what to do! ignore
As Salaamu alaikum, jedi
samia already explained to you that there is no consensus, so to claim that the clear consensus is headscarf is completely unfounded
how many times must it be repeated?
there are certain people who start at the beginning of an issue and say "i wonder what this means... i shall investigate"
and then there are others who say "i wish to promote this viewpoint and now i shall manipulate the language in order to prove myself and my preconceived beliefs correct and bully others into accepting them"
clearly you are showing yourself to be in the second category
-
-
Salaam IQO
From the ten dictionaries you cited, only three could be considered classical Arabic dictionaries Lisaanul 3arab, Al Muheet and Tajul 3aroos (Lane's is a translation of Tajul 3aroos, that's why I did not count it though it is classical). Hans Wehr is what it calls itself Dictionary of Modern written Arabic. Others copy from, mostly, Tajul 3aroos (if it does say khimaar is headscarf. I am taking your word), since other dictionaries do not go into details as what khimaar is definitely.
Here are two classical dictionaries, out of the three, which you cited as proving that khimaar is head scaf. It seems that those who mentioned a plural for it had (khumur) as a third choice; the first being "akhmira"
Al Muheet
.
Translation
Khimar is naseef; like the khimirr; and anything that covers something is its khimaar. Plural akhmira; khumr and khumurLisaanul 3arab .
.Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).
As for the third, Tajul 3aroos, I did not check it. I'll leave it for those who are following this thread to check Lane's under Kha Meem Raa
