Face cover: God's only flaw?
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Dictionaries are no subsitute for al-quran. In this case, Khamr's primary meaning in Al-Quran is that of an intoxicant i.e. something hidden. "Head-cover" makes 2431 sound absolutely ridiculous.
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them place their HEADcovers over their chests...
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Salaam IQO
Salaams Samia
I hope that when you start your message to me with "peace" you mean it, and don't haste to accuse me of being "deceitful" or "cunning" before you read my reply to you.
I send offers of peace to anyone. I would even want peace with my enemies or anyone I would be at war with. Offering peace doesn't mean you don't speak the truth to go along with it. It is only offering peace.
My post was not intended to answer your question. It was, since the first post, to refute your claim about a consensus on the meaning of khimaar.
First, let's look at what "consensus" is
Main Entry con?sen?sus
Pronunciation \kn-sen(t)-ss
Function noun
Usage often attributive
Etymology Latin, from consentire
Date 1843
1 a general agreement unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports?from the border ? John Hersey> b the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned <the consensus was to go ahead>Clearly if you had read my posts on the issue thoroughly, you SHOULD have been able to ascertain that I was using consensus in this manner bolded above.
While I said "ALL", if you notice how I said I used the term, this means that it includes "most of those concerned".
Nevertheless, 3 that doen't mention it as a headscarf (if she is correct), but don't mention it as "NOT A HEADSCARF", definitely don't change the fact that the majority do consider "khimaar" a headscarf! If you want to say that the majority don't consider it a headscarf primarily, then you need to bring at least a minimum of 11 dictionaries that don't include this definition in it.
If you want to also pick on the word "consensus", then feel free to make your feeble arguments; the bottom line is that the MAJORITY of all arabic dictionaries and lexicons agree that "khimaar" is a headscarf.
Moreover, I haven't seen this question of yours.
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? hmm
Of course I am not negating that it means naseef. On the contrary, I emphasized this here and on another thread. It seems that you don't know what a naseef is.
Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"
For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".
Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover, but the famous poet Annaabighal Thubiaani used it to mean something like a "sarong". Another linguist says it is an "overall", worn over all the woman's clothes.
It seems that lisaanul3arab does not have a clear cut meaning for "head cover for women", it just says "it is said that..". However, it is used in hadeeth literature as head cover for men (specifically mentioned in relation to the prophet) according to lisaanul3arabHow you deduce from this that "its primary meaning is headscarf" is beyond logic.
Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"
For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".
Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover,Quote from IQO
I guess you feel like 2431 is saying "draw over your chest area with YOUR anything that covers"....and surely for you in arabic that makes better sense since you don't like to wear a headscarf.That's really pathetic!! "Any thing that covers something is its khimaar" would not need a genius to deduce that, khimaar of a table table cloth; khimaar of a bed bedsheet; khimaar of person their clothes...How about "Draw your clothes to cover your chests"?
The bottom line still remains that Allah said "bikhumurihinna". If you take your definition, then it is saying "to draw over your chest areas with YOUR covers", which is very ambigious for a specific word "khimar", that clearly at that time was also used to mean "headscarf"; whether it be for men or women. In the ayat in reference, it is clearly being used for women because that is the audience being spoken to as is evidenced in many ways, not just the "hinna".
To assume that Allah meant any "cover", when the people at that time clearly understood the word to mean "a headcover" for either men or women, is to NOT take the best meaning of Al Quran. It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
.... "Bikhumurihinna" clearly means "with their khumur". So the issue becomes what is khumur and how to do the commandment with it. But the commandment itself can not be questioned. Why is Allah so specific in this commandment for believing women only? (not believing or non believing men, or non believing women)
What other possible use of "khumur" could fit the meaning? Allah says to take the best meaning from Al Quran, He knows that all words have many meanings and that is why we have definitions in dictionaries. It is perfectly reasonable to believe that Allah is going to use the most common use and understanding of the word to the people being addressed to benefit them in understanding.
It is those who choose to render this very SPECIFIC commandment from Allah to believing women, MEANINGLESS, that try to make the word "khumur" mean something very general...so that in essence, there is no real command in 2431 except to not walk around with your breast out; which is ridiculous. I think it makes those who want separate themselves as far away from sunnism as possible more comfortable..and women who don't like to cover, it makes them feel that they are still obeying Allah, even if they just wear a bra. Why else would people go to such great lengths to try to say that "khumur" is not headscarves when it clearly DOES mean that primarily, even if you can find other weaker meanings for the word?
See above and activate your imagination.
Maybe you can understand "ikhtamarat alkhimaar"? What's the meaning of ikhtamara? "Wear the dress/clothes; get dressed" rings a bell?Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
If I put it in paranthesis, and even you were able to understand that it is not part of the dictionary and were not mislead, no one else would be mislead. They are smarter than that. They know what it means to put something between parenthesis. If you don't, I am not surprised.
Enough people in here don't have the resources or understanding of arabic to be able to ascertain it as I did. That's no knock on them....that's pointing out that you surely already know this and are either over estimating the influence that that type of writing has, or you did it intentionally...hence my reference to cunningness and deceitfulness.
I really don't understand why this much-a-do-about nothing. The underlined sentence is "takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat", and this is my translation for it. Do you expect the dictionary to write (takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat alkhimaar)? The point is the variable verb patterns. As for your claim that it should be (covered her head with the khimaar and not with it), still I do not see what the point is, yet, you have it in bold
What is "wore the khimaar"? Wore the cover? What cover? How about "headscarf"? Yes, I thought so. But I guess to you it means "covered with the cover". wow what's before it has no significance to you.
khammarat bihi ra'saha (word for word) she covered with it her head.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically (primarily). They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
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Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
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Taaj-el-uroos
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Lataif-ul-Lughat
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Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
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Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
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A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
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Almufradat by Raghib
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Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
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Lane?s Lexicon
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Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
So, what's there in Leoxyz post that makes you feeling victorious? What's in his post that I did not mention or that I concealed?
Who said anything about feeling victorious? There is no competition here between me and you or anybody else here as far as I am concerned. You can compete with yourself in delusion and ignoring the obvious if you like; that's your own personal choice.
I think if you read the post, you were proven erroroneous on part of your claim...that you never were able to correct even though the posting continued.
Again, continue and enjoy your beliefs and to promote them...surely Allah takes into account all things from all of us.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaams House M.D.,
If using "headscarf" makes 2431 sound ridiculous to you, it is because you are missing KEY words in the ayat.
"bikhumurihinna" let the draw over their chest area WITH THEIR HEADSCARF.
peace
Dictionaries are no subsitute for al-quran. In this case, Khamr's primary meaning in Al-Quran is that of an intoxicant i.e. something hidden. "Head-cover" makes 2431 sound absolutely ridiculous.
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them place their HEADcovers over their chests...
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Salaam IQO, all
I am glad you quoted all my entries and showed that, contrary to your accusation, I am not hiding any meaning mentioned in the dictionaries, even if I do not agree with it. The difference between you and me is that I read all the entry and mention other material that shows that headscarf is a forced meaning. All dictionaries tend to have the original meaning and then twist it towards "headscarf". For example, lisaanul3arab says it is a cover, and goes as far as saying "khammarat ra'saha bihi "bil khimaar" covered her head with khimaar why her head? Do you say I wear shoes on my feet, or I say I wear the bra on my chest? This is what you fail to grasp analytical study, to find out the truth of the matter. Another example is of "naseef", which, from its meaning, is "half" something. Some linguists say it is an overall (maybe overall the 3awra ;D , which is the lower half of the person. This is still prevailing in many countries and was till recently worn by women in the Sudan, a replacement of the rahT) and a poet uses it in the sense of a sarong; but magically it becomes "headscarf". Same goes to "3ajeera" and "jilbaab".
My question, why in all entries of khimaar, no dictionary cited the famous verse?
This is the same with "nasakha" when they cite the correct meaning (=copy/confirm) and then twist towards the forced meaning (to delete), citing an Arab saying (the sun nasakhat the shadow) and claim that it means the sun deletes the shadow, but do not cite the concerned verse! Perhaps they know it is false, and they do not want to take the responsibility of altering the God's words in both verses. Those who do not reflect, run happily with this example, unaware that the sun does not delete the shadow, but copies an object in the form of a shadow. Darkness deletes shadows. The same with "khimaar/whatever =headscarf". They run with a forced entry or two, ignoring the main signs that this is just a false, forced meaning.Have you ever tried to find out what women used to wear in pre islamic era? Read my previous post please.
I hope this encourages you to be more analytical in reading any Arabic old book (including dictionaries). Otherwise, please let's agree to disagree.
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The Quran is logical.
is there anything sexual about a woman's hair anyway? that it MUST be covered? hmm
All the traditionalists will tell you that "OF COURSE? Women's hair arouses men enormously". and how could it be otherwise? Everything in women is sexual, just their face and palms can be uncovered. (And that, I fear, till they get women to cover all the rest, afterwards the struggle will start to cover also the face and the palms, because finally, can there be anything more sexual than a woman's lips. And after that, the mere thought that a woman could be with her whole sex walking in the street just like that will also be a real provocation...
Pandering to that kind of abuse is just like temptation, the moment an opening is offered to the suitor, the other openings will follow the moment the women accept to be coerced into dressing up to their face and palms to suit the whims of contorted minds, the rest will follow.
So, some men (or women, I don't care) like to play the musical instrument of women's clothing and unclothing. Some of these obsessional individuals like to dress it in religion and invent commandments Allah naver gave, but in fact it is a shameless, self-seeking, indecent voyerism into things that do not concern them, that do not affect them and to which they are not invited and on which they have no say. Dressing is to feel protected and beautified according to 26.3, and not for pandering to anybody's obssessions. If somebody needs to go into some clothes crusade, let them go after the fashion industry and ask it to design clothes that are comfortable and dignified, and let alone heads and arms that are none of their concern.
Salaam
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Salaam Samia, all,
I don't think that all the dictionaries and lexicons are going to extra ordinary means to make khimaar mean headscarf as you claim. The example you gave has nothing to do with the khimaar entries except that you want it to be the same so that it fits your argument. The people you cite, a poet and some unknown linguist, are not reliable references to use, but which you build your ENTIRE CASE AROUND!
Lisaanul3arab first says that it is a headscarf, period. Everything else is secondary. Most entried mention the headscarf entry first, and then the others, unlike what you are claiming that they then try to twist the meaning to headscarf.
Also, analytically, there is nothing wrong to tell someone to put their shoes on their feet. Maybe their shoes are on the floor and they want them to put them on. Also, the three usual definitions of naseef were given. Maybe you didn't read NUMBER 2.
The fact the dictionaries don't cite this ayat from Al Quran doesn't mean anything, unless you can show that all these dictionaries site which ayat any word that is used Al Quran, are contained in. Otherwise it is proof of nothing.
Your contention of have I ever tried to find out what women wore in pre Islamic times is useless. Your evidence of what women in the Sudan wore has nothing to do with when Al Quran was revealed. Al Quran tells us what they SHOULD have been wearing if they had faith in the guidance sent by Allah.
You have encourage me to do nothing because your analytical thinking is steer only to suit your own desires, IMHO.
I agree though...lets agree to disagree...and why don't you treat yourself and go out and get a nice hair do to walk around and show off to everyone. ;D Make yourself feel good that you follow Al Quran according to your understanding! sun Again, it won't bother me one bit, I see it everyday in America and don't mind! O0
But please don't expect me to take you as someone to use for serious study of Al Quran; because you know how to manipulate arabic well to suit your needs, Im much too aware for that. yes
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Where people got the idea that Allah asked women to cover themselves because otherwise it will drive men sexually crazy, is beyond my reasoning. People who think that Allah doesn't concern the teachings of Al Quran with how women dress, obviously aren't reading Al Quran thoroughly.
I could care less about what "traditionalists" believe or don't believe. But it is clear that Allah clearly concerns Himself with how women dress, with no less than four ayats directly talking about the subject matter. Those who ignore this, or claim that men and women are equal in their roles defined in Al Quran, have no answer for why Allah makes this distinction in Al Quran.
Still, no one in this forum that I have seen is trying to force anyone to wear or not wear something. I haven't seen any laws created in the forum that says if you are or aren't dressed a certain way, you can't post. errrrrrrrrrrr
Those who ignore the clear commandments of Allah and try to belittle them as not important, are only trying to distort the book with their own desires and opinions.
All the traditionalists will tell you that "OF COURSE? Women's hair arouses men enormously". and how could it be otherwise? Everything in women is sexual, just their face and palms can be uncovered. (And that, I fear, till they get women to cover all the rest, afterwards the struggle will start to cover also the face and the palms, because finally, can there be anything more sexual than a woman's lips. And after that, the mere thought that a woman could be with her whole sex walking in the street just like that will also be a real provocation...
Pandering to that kind of abuse is just like temptation, the moment an opening is offered to the suitor, the other openings will follow the moment the women accept to be coerced into dressing up to their face and palms to suit the whims of contorted minds, the rest will follow.
So, some men (or women, I don't care) like to play the musical instrument of women's clothing and unclothing. Some of these obsessional individuals like to dress it in religion and invent commandments Allah naver gave, but in fact it is a shameless, sel****ing, indecent voyerism into things that do not concern them, that do not affect them and to which they are not invited and on which they have no say. Dressing is to feel protected and beautified according to 26.3, and not for pandering to anybody's obssessions. If somebody needs to go into some clothes crusade, let them go after the fashion industry and ask it to design clothes that are comfortable and dignified, and let alone heads and arms that are none of their concern.
Salaam
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I don't understand the logical foundations that people use to say there is a quranic order to actually cover the head.
2431 - And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms
The order is to wrap the head covering over the chest, not an order to wrap it over the head. If it asked you to wrap your towels around your heads, that would not be an order to be in a constant state of showering. So why is it interpreted the other way here?
Have a headscarf => Cover your chest with it
Dont have a headscarf => Do nothing. -
The Quran is logical.
is there anything sexual about a woman's hair anyway? that it MUST be covered? hmm
Salaam,
According to Jewish religion its was Eve?s hair that made Adam lose his senses and commit sin, it is their religion that considers a woman?s hair alluring. Orthodox Jews still shave the heads of their brides so that form the very first night man would not fall for her charm like Adam did.
Best regards
farida . -
Salaams House M.D.,
If using "headscarf" makes 2431 sound ridiculous to you, it is because you are missing KEY words in the ayat.
"bikhumurihinna" let the draw over their chest area WITH THEIR HEADSCARF.
peace
Peace bro,
I am not missing any key words.Women are told to put their KHUMUR on their JUYOOB. How do you cover your chest with a head cover, isn't a hat a 'head-cover'? Is it perfectly okay for someone to cover their chest with a baseball hat ? If The God told you to cover your table with a khimar, are we covering it with a 'head-cover'?!
HEADcover makes that verse illogical.
The word "khimar" means "cover". ANY cover. A piece of cloth covering a table is a "khimar". The word "khamr" ( intoxicant) is derived from it, because it "covers" the mind, and obstructs thinking.
The Quran is simply ordering the women to put a cloth/shawl/or whatever... over their "juyyoub".
The scholars will tell you that "juyyoub" means "bosom". This is not necessarily so. The word "juyyob" actually has a general meaning "opening or orifice". Therefore, the bosom is ONE OF the juyoubs, but not the only one. (When God told Moses to put his hand in his "jayb" and made it appear white...Where did Moses put his hand??
Could it be his armpit??? Hence the armpit is one of the "juyoubs" also.The mistake of scholars is that they take words/phrases in the Quran that have general meanings, and give them specific meanings.
The word "khamr" in the Quran can mean ANY kind of intoxicant. Not just alcoholic beverages, but also drugs , hasheesh,etc.. They all qualify as "hasheesh".
Simple as that, you don't cover a table with a head-cover. You do cover the table with a COVER.
peace David,
I did a little research on this previously, here are some notes
list of occurrence
From Lane
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, become changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured?
Lane gives examples of ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees? & ?he concealed his testimony?.
Its primary signification is 'to cover'.
As far as I can tell, to say 'khumur' in 2431 means 'head cover' is an extrapolation. If one takes its core meaning, it simply means 'cover/veil'.
...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...
Kha-Miim-Ra is in the plural in this verse.
I hope this has helped.
Wakas
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My guess is that two headscarves would be needed for the purpose of the "juyoob", one would leave one of them catch cold. A shawl, on the other hand would be nice for both.
Nobody has answered many questions that I put forward in another post. Since it seems that I don't risk getting answers to my very well thought out questions, I suppose there is no harm in putting forth another one, which may shed some light on headscarves
Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam
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Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam
They wore nothing on their chest. This is what they used to wear (most probably)
Lisaanul 3arab (and other dictionaries) under "RahT"
.Translation And the "rahT" is a "piece of" leather measuring between the knee and the navel, wore by women who menustrated (adults). In pre-islamic era, "men" used to circumbulate naked, and women in "rahTs". Ibn Sayyedihi says The rahT is slit leather from Taif, worn by young boys and adult women. "According to" Ibnul A3raabi The rahT is a "piece of" leather slit in strings measuring (in width) four fingerwidth or a palm width, worn by little girls before menustration and also after menustrating.
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So your intelligent suggestion is that the believing women before ayat 2431 was revealed wore "rahT" only and had their bare breasts out? So after this ayat was revealed, they went and got their "table cloths, curtains, bedspreads or whatever" and covered their breasts? wow rotfl nope
Im proud to be in the minority opposition to this type of supposedly "Quranic" new age thinking, while still being able to follow Al Quran only. yay
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
They wore nothing on their chest. This is what they used to wear (most probably)
Lisaanul 3arab (and other dictionaries) under "RahT"
.Translation And the "rahT" is a "piece of" leather measuring between the knee and the navel, wore by women who menustrated (adults). In pre-islamic era, "men" used to circumbulate naked, and women in "rahTs". Ibn Sayyedihi says The rahT is slit leather from Taif, worn by young boys and adult women. "According to" Ibnul A3raabi The rahT is a "piece of" leather slit in strings measuring (in width) four fingerwidth or a palm width, worn by little girls before menustration and also after menustrating.
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I don't understand the logical foundations that people use to say there is a quranic order to actually cover the head.
2431 - And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms
The order is to wrap the head covering over the chest, not an order to wrap it over the head. If it asked you to wrap your towels around your heads, that would not be an order to be in a constant state of showering. So why is it interpreted the other way here?
Have a headscarf => Cover your chest with it
Dont have a headscarf => Do nothing.So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
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Salaams House M.D.,
Peace bro,
I am not missing any key words.Women are told to put their KHUMUR on their JUYOOB. How do you cover your chest with a head cover, isn't a hat a 'head-cover'? Is it perfectly okay for someone to cover their chest with a baseball hat ? If The God told you to cover your table with a khimar, are we covering it with a 'head-cover'?!
HEADcover makes that verse illogical.
Headscarves are spreadable. I don't think they had baseball hats back then. I think they used cloth to make scarves with. "IF's" are not the question here, but rather WHAT did Allah say. There are other words for table cloths which I will show below.
Quote from Pazuzu on November 05, 2006, 032908 PM
The word "khimar" means "cover". ANY cover. A piece of cloth covering a table is a "khimar". The word "khamr" ( intoxicant) is derived from it, because it "covers" the mind, and obstructs thinking.The Quran is simply ordering the women to put a cloth/shawl/or whatever... over their "juyyoub".
The scholars will tell you that "juyyoub" means "bosom". This is not necessarily so. The word "juyyob" actually has a general meaning "opening or orifice". Therefore, the bosom is ONE OF the juyoubs, but not the only one. (When God told Moses to put his hand in his "jayb" and made it appear white...Where did Moses put his hand??
Could it be his armpit??? Hence the armpit is one of the "juyoubs" also.
The mistake of scholars is that they take words/phrases in the Quran that have general meanings, and give them specific meanings.The word "khamr" in the Quran can mean ANY kind of intoxicant. Not just alcoholic beverages, but also drugs , hasheesh,etc.. They all qualify as "hasheesh".
From a previous discussion
From Samia on Reply #92 on June 13, 2007, 035002 AM
I agree with you that khamara is to cover and the the different nouns derived from it are used to cover different things khamr conceal reasoning; khumra (used in hadith literature) a small rug ; khumra (the word is still used in the Sudan) old home made perfume used to conceal bad body smell (something like a deodorant); khimaar (in classical literature) scarf to conceal the face.Khamr and khumra (perfume) could also be derived from the verb "khaamara", form III, which means mix up (whether confused or literally mix up)
God did not ask them to remove it from the face, because this was vital for them, but ordered women to stretch further down to cover the bosom. If they want to keep the face covered , it is up to them.
It's interesting that,in the entry of khimaar, lisanul3arab says and it's said that is the "cloth" to cover a woman's hair. So, lisanul 3arab could not find, even a line of poetry, to confirm that. However, it cited a hadith narrated by um Salmaa on ablution, speaking of the prophet that he used to "rub on his sandals and khimaar".
From Arnold Yasin on Reply #93 on June 13, 2007, 054037 AM
Peace Samia,Thanks for that very clarifying explanation. Also, I have researched Jayb, but till now I have only indentified it as bosom, while Dr. Mohammed Shahroor claims it is every type of opening
" <JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else)."From Samia on Reply #94 on June 13, 2007, 064916 AM
Salaam ArnoldYes I am aware of Shahrour's explanation of "jayb". The problem is that we have the plural, but not the singular. Sha7ruur derived his meaning from the root jeem waw baa to dig a hole. The problem is we do not have a word for "hole" that's remotely linked to jayb or juyuub. There is, hoowever, jawba private parts, but the plural is juwab, so this is out. There is a more interesting one jawb, which is a vest worn by women, (maybe like a bra, especially if she is nursing). Although lisaanul 3arab does not give the plural for this word, but it would look like "juyuub", anologically to similar words.
Another root is jeem yaa baa, from which is derived the word jayb/juyuub the opening of a shirt/garment.
Personally I will go for juyuub women vest, because first it is specific to women, and secondly, it requires more covering.
From Samia on Reply #130 on June 16, 2007, 013924 AM
I see that the verb "dharaba" is getting us in trouble again in this verse!! The argument, as I understand, is whether to cast the scarf on the bosoms only (scarf then means cover) or keep it on the head And "hold on place/sew it" on th bosom! From all the meanings of dharaba in dictionaries and general usage, I never heard of it meaning "to sew" nor "to hold on place".Daharaba fil ardh travel (so it is not hold on place; just the opposite)
dharaba example compared two things (again, opposite of hold on place)
dharaba a tent spread it, unfold it (again, opposite of hold on place).The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
Simple as that, you don't cover a table with a head-cover. You do cover the table with a COVER.
From ImamQuranOnly on Reply #136 on June 16, 2007, 111647 AM
If I say "curtain", just because it covers windows does not mean that it is not a specific cover for a specific function. A "curtain" is not a "tablecloth". Nor is a "khimaar" a tablecloth, etc. It is specifically a "headscarf/covering".A tablecloth in arabic can be said as "biz (ghiTa) as sufrat" or "mifrash". A curtain in arabic can be said as "sattar" or "hijjab". A shirt in as "qameeS" or "qumSaan". A jacket as "Jubbat" or "Sudayree". A shawl as "shaalat" or "sheelaan". A "cover" or "covering" as a subject...as "ghiTaa' " or "Himaayat" or " 'illat" or "Hujjat", and finally a "cloth" as "JuuKh" or "qumaash" or "asqmishat" being plural for also a tablecloth, or "beezas sufrat" or "mifrash".
And finally on "khimaar" and "jayb" again
From ImamQuranOnly on Reply #136 on June 16, 2007, 111647 AM
You can not make "khimaar" into a vague noun to mean any covering because you want to redefine the word using its root. Al Quran clearly didn't use it as a noun anywhere else, because the meaning was not vague or misleading to the believing women and men. The noun is possessive, and therefore the women would have to know EXACTLY what is being said, or they may would have requested what type of covering? Or it would not have been clear as to how to exactly cover the cleavage. Maybe they would have asked about the "undistinguised cover" as Moses' people asked about the cow. It is a SPECIFIC noun meaning HEADSCARF/HEADCOVER. Allah was very specific and detailed about what He wanted used to spread over the woman's cleavage.Also women's breast are known as "Saduur", not "jayb", which indicates clearly the chest area or "cleavage" when discussed about a woman.
YOU CAN NOT IN ANYWAY DISREGARD "HEADSCARF/COVER" AS A MEANING OF "KHIMAAR". SO TO USE IT CAN NOT BE FORBIDDEN, WHILE IF IT IS "NOT" WORN, CAN BE DISOBEDIENCE! I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THIS LOGIC AND THE POSITION IT PUTS YOU AND PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE TO WRONG UNDERSTANDING IN BY INSTRUCTING AGAINST WHAT ALLAH HAS COMMANDED. ALTHOUGH I KNOW I AM NOT WRONG ON THIS ISSUE, IF I AM, THERE IS NO HARM FOR WOMEN TO WEAR KHIMAAR, SINCE IT CAN MEAN HEADSCARF/COVER, EVEN IF AS YOU CONTEND THAT IT CAN ALSO MEAN MORE THAN THAT. BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG AND ALLAH CLEARLY INTENDS FOR BELIEVING WOMEN TO WEAR IT, THEN YOU INSTRUCT THEM THAT THIS IS NOT ALLAH'S COMMAND, THAT WOULD BE A SIN. ( I am not intending to shout here, just wanted to point out what I think is extremely important.)
I hope this opens some more doors of reason to you and those who still refuse to acknowledge what is being said.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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My guess is that two headscarves would be needed for the purpose of the "juyoob", one would leave one of them catch cold. A shawl, on the other hand would be nice for both.
I haven't seen a comment this ridiculous in at least 2 days! wow
Nobody has answered many questions that I put forward in another post. Since it seems that I don't risk getting answers to my very well thought out questions, I suppose there is no harm in putting forth another one, which may shed some light on headscarves
Maybe because, just as your point above, no one thought it was well thought out, but rather thought it was ridiculous! yes
Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam
Surely you believe as Samia that they were 100% barbarians that wore nothing but leather strips & , even though they were in the presence of the people of previous scriptures and others that were civilized! hmm
You people amaze me at the lenghts you go to in order to try and make Al Quran suit your needs. wow
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Peace all,
I will first point out that I'm not here for some endless discussion of who is right or wrong.
I will take sis samias example as well could have happen theory. I have also read before about the dress of women before Islam, and that the fashion was to leave the breast uncovered. So why so surprised about this?
And I guess we all have seen nature people who are nude or half nude and only cover for special weather conditions, like sand storms or extreme cold during night etc.
We are all born nude, and we cover ourselves for many reasons. But I have difficult to find a reason to why God will hide all women. In Quran it says that the best garment is the garment of righteouses so, why then press this about headcovers so hard?
Peace
Maria -
Peace all,
I will first point out that I'm not here for some endless discussion of who is right or wrong.
I will take sis samias example as well could have happen theory. I have also read before about the dress of women before Islam, and that the fashion was to leave the breast uncovered. So why so surprised about this?
And I guess we all have seen nature people who are nude or half nude and only cover for special weather conditions, like sand storms or extreme cold during night etc.
We are all born nude, and we cover ourselves for many reasons. But I have difficult to find a reason to why God will hide all women. In Quran it says that the best garment is the garment of righteouses so, why then press this about headcovers so hard?
Peace
MariaIt's a single verse in the whole quran, hardly a pressed issue compared to most commandments. There is only one reason for the hard pressing, because traditionalists want to maintain the status quo. In this case, the burden of proof is on us who want change. This verse is hardly a command to "hide all women", it's a command to all believing women to cover their chests.
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Not at all. It can preserve its name but have a different purpose. For instance, if it was a scarf, which is also used for the head, then it wouldn't stop being a scarf if wrapped around the chest.
I see it as (2) because as logically accurate as the verse gets, it is an ORDER for the believing women to TAKE their headscarf and USE IT TO COVER their chests. If a headscarf woman read that verse, how else could she comply with the commandment but by doing an action, the action being to take the headscarf and use it to cover her chest?
You cannot interpret it as (1) because that is a logical fallacy, the scarf being a headscarf in no way changes the message to TAKE the scarf and USE IT TO COVER the chest, because the actions are already defined. In addition, in no way does the verse imply that the head MUST be covered, but on the other hand, it does state clearly that the chest MUST be covered.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
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It's a single verse in the whole quran, hardly a pressed issue compared to most commandments.
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
I see it as (2) because as logically accurate as the verse gets, it is an ORDER for the believing women to TAKE their headscarf and USE IT TO COVER their chests. If a headscarf woman read that verse, how else could she comply with the commandment but by doing an action, the action being to take the headscarf and use it to cover her chest?
You cannot interpret it as (1) because that is a logical fallacy, the scarf being a headscarf in no way changes the message to TAKE the scarf and USE IT TO COVER the chest, because the actions are already defined. In addition, in no way does the verse imply that the head MUST be covered, but on the other hand, it does state clearly that the chest MUST be covered.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
Maybe you missed this part
From Samia on Reply #130 on June 16, 2007, 013924 AM
I see that the verb "dharaba" is getting us in trouble again in this verse!! The argument, as I understand, is whether to cast the scarf on the bosoms only (scarf then means cover) or keep it on the head And "hold on place/sew it" on th bosom! From all the meanings of dharaba in dictionaries and general usage, I never heard of it meaning "to sew" nor "to hold on place".Daharaba fil ardh travel (so it is not hold on place; just the opposite)
dharaba example compared two things (again, opposite of hold on place)
dharaba a tent spread it, unfold it (again, opposite of hold on place).The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
And maybe you missed this part
Surely you believe as Samia that they were 100% barbarians that wore nothing but leather strips & , even though they were in the presence of the people of previous scriptures and others that were civilized! hmm
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace