Historic Judgment on Interest Given by the Supreme Court of Pakistan
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Peace jonny_k,
JK- heres a whole list of Arabic equivalents for interest
http//online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp?do=e-services-dictionaries-word_translate1&direction=1&status=translate&lang1=23&lang2=ar&source=interest
Two of the first are "Ihtimaam" and "faida" as i mentioned earlier.We already covered the fact that ?faida? is not interest in CA. As for ?Ihtimaam?, it does not mean interest in the sense of financial interest, but interest in the sense of concern/care, as in showing ?interest? in a friend?s problems. So, I am still waiting for you to produce any evidence of a classical Arabic word that means financial interest. You keep on giving me definitions from modern dictionaries. Point me to the page in Lane?s Lexicon (or some other classical Arabic/English dictionary) that gives the word for interest in classical Arabic (aside from Riba of course).
JK- As i said some pennys if they are old can even have MORE value than that imprinted on it. Like the 1957 rare copper German 2 Mark penny, of which only 500 were printed, is NOW appx Euro 1500 in value instead of 1 Euro Cent. Hows that?
Few enough of those pennies were stamped as to create an artificial demand among people who were willing to pay for it. The demand changed their nature from government/law decreed money into a collectible commodity. That is why a ?mint? condition ?1957 rare copper German 2 Mark penny? would undoubtedly be worth more than a badly worn one. Yet this is not the case for my example of the dull 1964 penny and the shiny new minted 2007 penny. Why do these pennies have the same value? ?because they are money.
Your example also does not make sense because money is something which does not lose quality.
I don?t know what you are trying to say?
It is your "registered earning" so to say and theres no reason why you shouldnt be able to "rent" it out to others who have NOT EARNED AS MUCH and thus want a part of your earnings to try and get ahead, absolutely NONE. Do you get this now? This has nothing to do with increase at all and hence can by no means by "riba".
Sure, as long as you are willing to accept that in such an investment you will share in any loss of the money you ?rent? to others who want to get ahead.
JK- Because that makes it loose value doesnt it? Ok old or new note of 1 USD always remains 1 USD because it is ones registered earnings as mentioned earlier. So if say someone owns 10M IDR(Indian rupees) today but tomorrow the whole country's economy collapses, his money will be worth zero so there can be risk on currency too.
Why would the whole country?s economy collapse?
JK- What do you mean by "if the value if the wheat was 1 pound"? Do you mean the upper limit defined by the scientific community? If yes then i agree.
No, I don?t mean as defined by the ?scientific community?. What is this ?scientific community? you keep on referring to?
Ok lemme ask you a more tricky qs Would it be "riba" IYO if someone "rented" out USD 100,000 CHARGING EURO 700 a month?
Any ?renting? of money is Riba.
JK- What do you mean the bank is responsible? The bank has got signed an insurance contract which states that the installment payer must deliver all the money within the required time frame otherwise any of his/her property to make up for the banks loss and profit would be confiscated. This means that if say the bank offered him the house at USD 350,000 and if after the contract years he was only able to pay USD 200,000, then the bank would first try to sell the house again. If it sells for USD 350,000, the bank says goodbye and the payer would still be left without owning the house. Should the house have fallen value say to USD 200,000, then the bank would confiscate any of the payers belongings to get the USD 350,000. So no the bank has virtually no risk at all.
Did I ever say the above system is a just one?
In the usual system the installment payer has the advantage of paying the bank in shorter periods of time and thus avoid paying more whilst in the former all the 10 yr interest otherwise taken would have to be paid no matter if the money was available after a year. Remember also the bank can also only charge interest upto a fixed time, in my knowledge the max is 25 years. Even before that if insolvency is declared and analysed as correct, the bank has to quit any claims of money at all. its just that the responsibility to show up lies with the borrower.
Banks can only charge interest up to 25 years? No, bank mortgages can be 30 years, or even 40 years and 50 years.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_rate_mortgage#Popularity
And it doesn?t mean that they can?t charge interest after 25 years. It just means that the house would need to be re-mortgaged at that time. For instance, in Canada, the maximum time for a fixed-rate mortgage is about 10 years (only 5 years if you want to get the lowest rate).
And about the insolvency issue so, the bank wouldn?t recuperate their loss by taking the house?
JK- They are synonymous in essence. Its just that in some cases different terms are used and in case of currencies this happens to be the case.
Wonderful, so you agree with me. Different terms are used for money vs. commodity when ?renting? (I am using your terminology; I don?t agree that interest is like ?rent? on money). So, therefore, it is likely the same phenomenon held in classical Arabic as well (and it did), and thus there should be a classical Arabic word for interest (other than al-Riba), which you have still not been able to provide.
JK- Oh sorry i forgot to translate it as i took it from an already made translation. here it is again
Those who charge the illegal increment are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that the illegal increment is the same as commerce. However, GOD permits commerce, and prohibits the illegal increment. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from the illegal increment, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with GOD. As for those who persist in the illegal increment, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever.Actually "usury" and "illegal increment" is the SAME in regards to "interest" because unusually high amounts of interest are considered "usury" and this fits perfectly into the definition of "riba". Interest/Ihtimaam alone does NOT. GOD Bless!
Why is al-riba = illegal increments? Why do you add the word ?illegal?? It should just be ?increments? or ?additions? if you are taking the pure lexical meaning.
Who would try to defend ?illegal increments? by justifying it with respect to trade? If they are illegal increments by definition, why would they try to make that justification?
According to you al-Riba usury (excessive interest), charging high prices on basic needs such that it is unaffordable for the average person.
Who defines what an illegal increment is? Does the Quran define what al-Riba/illegal increment is? How could the Quran prohibit something in the strongest terms, and declare WAR on something which was not properly defined in the Quran?
So, according to you, prophet Muhammad had convened a ?scientific? council comprised of his top ?economists? to study fair market prices for basic goods. The same council was also charged to determine what rate of interest was excessive (i.e. at what point the interest rate became an ?illegal increment?). People were not adhering to these economic policies, so the verses 2275-2280 were revealed. Is that the way it worked?
Can you translate and summarize 2275-2280 for me? What is the main theme of those verses, and what does al-Riba mean in that context?
peace
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Peace all,
I believe that any interest-free economy that is not based on a debt-money system would have very very low inflation, and the need for any inflation compensation would not be necessary.
Agreed. If the money is backed by any natural resource of value e.g. gold, silver etc. there should not be any inflation. The current fiat currency system based on money as debt, and not backed by anything of value is one of the biggest corruptions imposed on us nowadays and needs to be completely revamped.
In my understanding, interest is a subset of riba, as any unjust increase/growth in one's wealth would be riba.
Thus riba = interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth.
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Peace all,
Agreed. If the money is backed by any natural resource of value e.g. gold, silver etc. there should not be any inflation. The current fiat currency system based on money as debt, and not backed by anything of value is one of the biggest corruptions imposed on us nowadays and needs to be completely revamped.
In my understanding, interest is a subset of riba, as any unjust increase/growth in one's wealth would be riba.
Thus riba = interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth.
Salaam Alaikum
According to some commentators of the Qur?an the taking of interest is what is haram but not the giving of it. They come up with all sorts of justification for taking loan on interest, which has resulted on many problems including consumerism and fake economy.
In this day and age every single country, except Norway has borrowed on interest and citizen of all those countries are living under debt with interest. This situation has been worst for the third world countries with corrupt rulers. And who gained from all this? The interest eater; the one who deals in usury..fill their bellies with fire.
Therefore I agree with you
? riba = interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth. Of the money lenders, be it Islamic banks backed by western banks, or the international monetary fund or our high street bank/building society.
May Allah(SWT) rid us of usury.
Best regards
farida -
Peace Br. Sharp,
Peace to you as well, Br. David. Nice to hear from you again.
I realize that debt is inevitable - what I was referring to was money being created as debt. Please watch this 47min film on money and debt. I think you will find it elucidating. If money is not created as debt, then the act of taking on debts will not be inflationary.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
You are right, in that the video is very illuminating and informative. But even the alternative monetary system that it proposes (36 minutes and 12 seconds into the video), it alludes to the fact that money creation should exclusively be a function of the government. When and under what circumstance can it be created? A quote from the video itself
"Money can be created by Government to spend on the economy such as roads, infrastructure, etc. Money, thus, would not be created as debt but as value, that value being whatever that money was spent on. If this money facilitated a proportional increase in trade requiring its use, it would cause no inflation whatsoever (in an ideal case scenario). If government spending did cause inflation, there would be two courses of action available
(1) Inflation is equivalent in effect to a flat tax on money whether the money goes down in value 20% or the government takes 20% of our money away from us, the effect on our buying power is the same. View this way, inflation in place of taxation, might be politically acceptable if well spent and kept within limits, or
(2) Government could choose to counter inflation by collecting tax monies that it then takes out of use, thus reducing the money supply and restoring its value.
To control deflation, which is the phenomenon of falling wages and prices, the government would spend more money into existence."
So there would be money creation, which might not have corresponding value, and there will be inflation, and where there is inflation... well, you know my standpoint.
I don't believe it is referring to renting. There are at least two Classical Arabic words (that I know of) which can mean renting.
One is from the root Kaf-Ra-Ya. I did not find its usage in the Quran, but it is in Lanes Lexicon.http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000254.pdf
It has been used for renting/hiring property and animals.
Another is "ijara" from the root "Alif-Jim-Ra" and can be used for renting/hiring property, people, and animals.
From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Alif-Jiim-Ra = recompense/compensation/reward, hire/pay/wage for service, profit
ajara vb. (1) impf. act. 2827
ajr n.m. (pl. ujur) 262, 2112, 2262, 2274, 2277, 357, 3136, 3171, 3172, 3179, 3185, 3199, 424, 425, 440, 467, 474, 495, 4100, 4114, 4146, 4152, 4162, 4173, 55, 59, 690, 7113, 7170, 828, 922, 9120, 1072, 1072, 1111, 1129, 1151, 11115, 1256, 1257, 1290, 12104, 1641, 1696, 1697,179, 182, 1830, 1877, 2557, 2641, 26109, 26109, 26127, 26127, 26145, 26145, 26164, 26164, 26180, 26180, 2825, 2854, 2927, 2958, 3329, 3331, 33?5, 33334, 3350, 3447, 3447, 357, 3530, 3611, 3621, 3886, 3910, 3935, 3974, 418, 4223, 4240, 4736, 4810, 4816, 4829, 493, 5240, 577, 5711, 5718, 5719, 5727, 6010, 6415, 655, 656, 6712, 683, 6846, 7320, 8425, 956
ista'jara vb. (10)
perf. act. 2826
impv. 2826Lane's Lexicon, Volume 1, pages 60, 61
Within the Quran, the form used for hiring takes place in 2826 and 2827, and is used for the hiring of a person (Moses).
The video that you quoted above had another very interesting observation. How can one lend something that one doesn't have? That is the main differnece, in my opinion, between normal renting/lending and lending by/through the current banking system. Renting out a car for profit is okay to everybody because you are actually renting out something physically there and yours. How is that different from a person (not a bank) from lending personal physical cash to someone for profit? What the Bank is doing different is lending out money that isn't even there and not even theirs for profit. Surely they can't be viewed under the same light.
I still don't agree that al-bayAA is "inflation-compensation interest", and it is giving the word a new meaning. Trade/buying&selling is specific, interest is specific, rent is specific, "unjust growth" is vague. Furthermore, please take a look at 629 where al-Bay'a is also used. Do you believe that al-Bay'a in this verse is solely referring to "inflation-compensation interest-bearing loans"?
629 O you who believe, if the communion is called to on the day of assembly, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all (al-Bay'a) trade/(buying & selling). This is better for you, if you only knew.
Okay, that is fine, I can concede that Al-Bay'a may well not be "inflation-compensation interest-bearing loans". But what I have difficulty in swallowing is this
(1) Khimar = cover & Al-Khimar = Intoxicants
(2) Riba = increase & Al-Riba = Interest
(3) Bay'a = trade & Al-Bay'aa = tradeThe first two apparently have both a general meaning and a specific meanings for their roots. How come the third one remains unchanged? What is the criteria for the specific and the general?
Yes, charging less than the "inflation rate" would be the best option, but the problem of accurately determining the "inflation rate" in the first place would still remain. And given that al-Riba is such a serious crime that it would warrant "war from God and His Messenger", and also given the evils caused by interest in the economy (any excess above the inflation rate would be interest), there would probably need to be a good safety margin. And to just make sure my thoughts are properly conveyed, I believe that any interest-free economy that is not based on a debt-money system would have very very low inflation, and the need for any inflation compensation would not be necessary.
peace
Thanks for summarising your views on your post. I think, in my opinion, it boils down to lending something that doesn't exist against one that does.
Peace Br. Tanveer and farida,
Peace all,
Agreed. If the money is backed by any natural resource of value e.g. gold, silver etc. there should not be any inflation. The current fiat currency system based on money as debt, and not backed by anything of value is one of the biggest corruptions imposed on us nowadays and needs to be completely revamped.
In my understanding, interest is a subset of riba, as any unjust increase/growth in one's wealth would be riba.
Thus riba = interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth.
Salaam Alaikum
According to some commentators of the Qur'an the taking of interest is what is haram but not the giving of it. They come up with all sorts of justification for taking loan on interest, which has resulted on many problems including consumerism and fake economy.
In this day and age every single country, except Norway has borrowed on interest and citizen of all those countries are living under debt with interest. This situation has been worst for the third world countries with corrupt rulers. And who gained from all this? The interest eater; the one who deals in usury..fill their bellies with fire.
Therefore I agree with you
... riba = interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth. Of the money lenders, be it Islamic banks backed by western banks, or the international monetary fund or our high street bank/building society.
May Allah(SWT) rid us of usury.
Best regards
faridaSo, what can one do in light of the Book in this current corrupt system, aside from changing the whole system? The video link provided above (which I am sure that you must have seen) provides a nice overview of the pitfalls of the systems based on natural resources i.e., gold and silver (33 minutes and 35 seconds into the video) as well. Considering that the Book is the ultimate guidance, surely it must give us some solution to stay on the right path in this corrupt system? What are you going to do until this system isn't changed, which practically probably isn't going to change in our lifetimes atleast?
Don't enter into an interest-based transaction, you say? Very idealistic, but I am sure that farida, who I have felt, tends towards practicality and reality, would probably disagree. But in any case, a solution based on the Book would be helpful, bearing in mind the fact that changing the system as you said, apparently removes the problem of interest and thus makes the verses on Al-Riba very, very redundant.
Peace
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Peace "David",
Peace jonny_k,
We already covered the fact that ?faida? is not interest in CA. As for ?Ihtimaam?, it does not mean interest in the sense of financial interest, but interest in the sense of concern/care, as in showing ?interest? in a friend?s problems. So, I am still waiting for you to produce any evidence of a classical Arabic word that means financial interest. You keep on giving me definitions from modern dictionaries. Point me to the page in Lane?s Lexicon (or some other classical Arabic/English dictionary) that gives the word for interest in classical Arabic (aside from Riba of course).
JK- Well "financial interest" itself is a modern word. But it denotes clearly that one is protecting oneself in the best possible available way against any potential loss and if this is "riba" then renting out a car whilst protecting oneself against any potential loss is also "riba". Do you think companies take a risk when they rent out a car? NO they dont. They make sure that the car is insured and that the user pays for any damage upto any amount which is left uninsured. None of this has anything to do with riba but it is ALL ACTING IN ONES OWN INTEREST.
Sure, as long as you are willing to accept that in such an investment you will share in any loss of the money you ?rent? to others who want to get ahead.
JK- Why would i have to share in the loss? This is not restricted to money either. I would always insure myself against any potential loss no matter what i rent out. Say i rent out an apartment. The guy uses it and causes some damage which devalues it a bit. Id ofcourse have it in the contract that he has to make those repairs so as to bring it back to the original value. So what have i done. I have insured myself against potential loss, havnt i? Is this "riba" too IYO? I already clarified this above though with anyother example.
Why would the whole country?s economy collapse?
JK- It can happen and i didnt necessarily mean a total collapse as in a nuclear war etc. Just look at the Pakistani Rupee(PKR). Just 20 years ago 1 USD was still worth 15 USD or so and now 1USD is worth over 50 PKR. See how much it has devalued wrt the USD?
No, I don?t mean as defined by the ?scientific community?. What is this ?scientific community? you keep on referring to?
JK- The scientific community are a group of INDEPENDENT RESEARCHERS AND THINKERS, ponderers so to say, who study, through random samples and repeated testing, how various things work including animals, humans, planets, stars, galaxies, human society itself, etc.
Any ?renting? of money is Riba.
JK- This is a nonsensible definition as shoudlve been clear by now.
Banks can only charge interest up to 25 years? No, bank mortgages can be 30 years, or even 40 years and 50 years.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_rate_mortgage#Popularity
And it doesn?t mean that they can?t charge interest after 25 years. It just means that the house would need to be re-mortgaged at that time. For instance, in Canada, the maximum time for a fixed-rate mortgage is about 10 years (only 5 years if you want to get the lowest rate).
And about the insolvency issue so, the bank wouldn?t recuperate their loss by taking the house?
JK- Sorry i must have misunderstood regarding the no of years. But the basic point remains the same. The banks cannot run after every individual and yes regarding insolvency ofcourse ANY LUXURIOUS EXTRAS OF THE RENTER would be taken to cover the banks loss. BUT this is also done when a car rental company rents out a car and the user damages it and is unisured. Hed have to give away some of his luxury and get the company a new car and pay the rent as well. Is this "riba" too?
Wonderful, so you agree with me. Different terms are used for money vs. commodity when ?renting? (I am using your terminology; I don?t agree that interest is like ?rent? on money). So, therefore, it is likely the same phenomenon held in classical Arabic as well (and it did), and thus there should be a classical Arabic word for interest (other than al-Riba), which you have still not been able to provide.
JK- The dictionary ifrom where i quoted had alot more terms than just these two. Maybe you can make something from the rest of them. Whats the word for "acting in ones interest" or "taking all means to insure oneself against any potential loss while renting something out" in Arabic? Im sure there is a word for that and it cant be "riba" for reasons already mentioned.
Why is al-riba = illegal increments? Why do you add the word ?illegal?? It should just be ?increments? or ?additions? if you are taking the pure lexical meaning.
JK- Ok so just let it increments then. Would mean the same in the context. It talks about trade being allowed and any increments forbidden. Now the increments logically need to refer to any uncontrolled high pricing. But if one thinks further this can only refer to items necessary for the basic standard of living. This can be implied when GOD mentions the word riba frequently in contrast to giving charity which is obviously not to provide the poor with luxury items but the items which enable them to get to the point of a standard living in society from which any further development would depend on their own efficiency.
Who would try to defend ?illegal increments? by justifying it with respect to trade? If they are illegal increments by definition, why would they try to make that justification?
JK- CREDIT SHARKS are the perfect example. I think i mentioned this often enough. Also there is a high end of interest which is still considered legal but it is known by independent researchers who study sociology that it still exploits many. In this case it could still be considered "riba" should one charge that amount of interest. Since GOD knows the intentions of every individual, Hed know when one is deliberately exploiting others or not so obviously one needs to be careful and not go for the high ends like some credit institutions do as well and then justify it as being trade.
According to you al-Riba usury (excessive interest), charging high prices on basic needs such that it is unaffordable for the average person.
Who defines what an illegal increment is? Does the Quran define what al-Riba/illegal increment is? How could the Quran prohibit something in the strongest terms, and declare WAR on something which was not properly defined in the Quran?
JK- There are many things in the Quran which are not defined down to every little detail. Consider for example salat, zakat, hajj, nikaah, etc. We after using dictionaries and cross referencing need to use our minds as well in trying to comprehend what GOD means by these terms. Hence such increments would have to be defined by INDEPEDENT RESEARCHERS who are accepted by the majority of people and they work in the respected socio analytical areas. And then ofcourse every individual should not go for the high end as already mentioned since EACH individual is answerable to GOD for his/her intentions.
So, according to you, prophet Muhammad had convened a ?scientific? council comprised of his top ?economists? to study fair market prices for basic goods. The same council was also charged to determine what rate of interest was excessive (i.e. at what point the interest rate became an ?illegal increment?). People were not adhering to these economic policies, so the verses 2275-2280 were revealed. Is that the way it worked?
JK- This is a very possible and plausible scenario since the Quran mentions many scientfic science and frequently asks us to ponder upon them hence observe them. Also if you study the Arabic history there were many many famous real Muslim scientists who ddint adhere to hadith but Quran Alone.
Can you translate and summarize 2275-2280 for me? What is the main theme of those verses, and what does al-Riba mean in that context?
peace
JK- I can summarize it. IMO GOD is stating that any trade should be fair. In the above verses it refers to loan in context and that one should not exploit others by taking excessive amounts of profit on loan which people are unable to pay and also that a person should be given more time should he not be able to return the loan immediately(this does not however mean that later on, should he have the money, he still shouldnt pay any interest). Last but not least it would be an extreme act of politeness should the whole loan be given as charity. This is also why some people consider the above verses talking about a loan to poor people who live below the standards and not about ordinary business loans and that would make even more sense. GOD Bless!
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Peace to you as well, Br. David. Nice to hear from you again.
Peace Br. Tanveer and farida,
So, what can one do in light of the Book in this current corrupt system, aside from changing the whole system? The video link provided above (which I am sure that you must have seen) provides a nice overview of the pitfalls of the systems based on natural resources i.e., gold and silver (33 minutes and 35 seconds into the video) as well. Considering that the Book is the ultimate guidance, surely it must give us some solution to stay on the right path in this corrupt system? What are you going to do until this system isn't changed, which practically probably isn't going to change in our lifetimes atleast?
Don't enter into an interest-based transaction, you say? Very idealistic, but I am sure that farida, who I have felt, tends towards practicality and reality, would probably disagree. But in any case, a solution based on the Book would be helpful, bearing in mind the fact that changing the system as you said, apparently removes the problem of interest and thus makes the verses on Al-Riba very, very redundant.
Peace
Salaam
As I said earlier almost every citizen is in debt as most governments have borrowed in this new world. We are all buried under a debt pile and I too do not believe that we can escape from it in our life time.
However harsh reality is trying to keep roofs over our heads and live in dignity, in an era where not many would lend you money, one has to be practical and borrow from banks. But that does not make riba halal, nor does it justify allowing it to become a part of modern economy.
To me it?s being stuck between a rock and a hard place, so how should one act? I think that, only what is extremely necessary should be taken on interest. Indulging in it would leave us a weak consumerist society and, if we fall into this trap we would be unable to face future trials. This surah comes to mind
2249 And when Saul set out with the army, he said Lo! Allah will try you by (the ordeal of) a river. Whosoever therefore drinketh thereof he is not of me, and whosoever tasteth it not he is of me, save him who taketh (thereof) in the hollow of his hand. But they drank thereof, all save a few of them. And after he had crossed (the river), he and those who believed with him, they said We have no power this day against Goliath and his hosts. But those who knew that they would meet Allah exclaimed How many a little company hath overcome a mighty host by Allah's leave! Allah is with the steadfast.
This is how I console myself but it does not mean that what I am saying is right, as it would mean taking the Quranic law into one?s own hands. I hope this act of necessity falls under minor sin &Best regards
farida -
Salaam
As I said earlier almost every citizen is in debt as most governments have borrowed in this new world. We are all buried under a debt pile and I too do not believe that we can escape from it in our life time.
However harsh reality is trying to keep roofs over our heads and live in dignity, in an era where not many would lend you money, one has to be practical and borrow from banks. But that does not make riba halal, nor does it justify allowing it to become a part of modern economy.
To me it's being stuck between a rock and a hard place, so how should one act? I think that, only what is extremely necessary should be taken on interest. Indulging in it would leave us a weak consumerist society and, if we fall into this trap we would be unable to face future trials. This surah comes to mind
2249 And when Saul set out with the army, he said Lo! Allah will try you by (the ordeal of) a river. Whosoever therefore drinketh thereof he is not of me, and whosoever tasteth it not he is of me, save him who taketh (thereof) in the hollow of his hand. But they drank thereof, all save a few of them. And after he had crossed (the river), he and those who believed with him, they said We have no power this day against Goliath and his hosts. But those who knew that they would meet Allah exclaimed How many a little company hath overcome a mighty host by Allah's leave! Allah is with the steadfast.
This is how I console myself but it does not mean that what I am saying is right, as it would mean taking the Quranic law into one's own hands. I hope this act of necessity falls under minor sin &Best regards
faridafarida,
Aww, come on. One cannot expect that a person of your conviction about her beliefs would risk chalking up a command which has been revealed to you as a minor sin, hoping that you would be forgiven because of your weakness. If anything, all the verses discussed in this thread regarding Al-Riba would be enough to make any believer cringe with fear of the consequences of taking Al-Riba. Are you willing to risk committing the only sin, the propagator of which has been given a notice of War from God and His prophet? If you sincerely believe that Al-Riba is all kind of interest and one cannot escape it in this world, then God is putting believers through a test which they will not be able to pass, a burden which they will not bear, in which case, where is the guidance for the believers in this corrupt system? Just commands based on His whims? Not one, I repeat, not even one of His commands burdensome on a person, yet He makes an exception with Al-Riba. I'm sorry but I, for one, am not willing to believe that. There has to be something that we are missing. Surprisingly enough, I hear people talk and talk about the traditional thinking and all, still the concept of interest from the same traditional is accepted without question.
Anyway, thanks for your response. Salam
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Peace "Sharp001", "david", "farida" and all,
I thought we were over this now. As you can see "david" finally in the above post came up with the ridiculous sectarian definition of riba which i had in mind theyd come up if asked long enough i.e. (The "rent" on MONEY is called Riba). The reason according to him is because money is always worth the same with respect to itself eg a 100(units) USD bank note always has the same value 100(units) USD, no matter whether its old and dusty or new and shiny. I refuted this silly comparison by giving other examples of units in some raw materials i.e. 1 new and shiny gram of iron/nickel/copper equals 1 old and dusty GRAM(get it? UNITS) iron/nickel/copper. Though sectarians considered charging loan on gold and silver as Riba, no one has ever considered the loan on any of these mentioned raw materials as such. Besides this has nothing to do with an increase at all. Another argument is that money/currency supposedly is free from any potential risk which is another load of bullcrap since we all know that the value of currencies varies continuously wrt one another and there's also the risk of inflation ofcourse. So this argument also does not hold any water. A third argument is that if one "rents" out a currency he/she does not share in the profit/loss of the debtor. This argument is so outrageously ridiculous that it's actually not even worth debating especially with sectarians. DONT THEY INSURE THEMSELVES AGAINST ANY POTENTIAL LOSSES WHILST RENTING OUT THEIR APARTMENTS/CARS/ETC, HEH? DOES ANYONE EVER CONSIDER THAT RIBA? In orsder to be consistent one would have to but no one ever did so it is clear that the definition of Riba that sectarians carry around and those Quran Alone Muslims who adopted them is plain and utter falsehood. GOD Bless! -
Peace Br. Sharp,
The video that you quoted above had another very interesting observation. How can one lend something that one doesn't have? That is the main differnece, in my opinion, between normal renting/lending and lending by/through the current banking system. Renting out a car for profit is okay to everybody because you are actually renting out something physically there and yours. How is that different from a person (not a bank) from lending personal physical cash to someone for profit? What the Bank is doing different is lending out money that isn't even there and not even theirs for profit. Surely they can't be viewed under the same light.
Correct, they are not the same. Lending what you don?t have is much worse, in fact fraudulent. But lending on interest is also forbidden.
Thanks for summarising your views on your post. I think, in my opinion, it boils down to lending something that doesn't exist against one that does.
I think now we are going in circles. Fractional reserve banking is a new phenomenon. What is 2275-2280 talking about, if not lending what one has?
peace
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Peace Jonny_k,
JK- The dictionary ifrom where i quoted had alot more terms than just these two. Maybe you can make something from the rest of them. Whats the word for "acting in ones interest" or "taking all means to insure oneself against any potential loss while renting something out" in Arabic? Im sure there is a word for that and it cant be "riba" for reasons already mentioned.
Financial interest is not a modern concept. You are the one that should be able to provide an alternative classical Arabic expression for interest, since you are the one claiming that Riba is not interest. You claim ?faida? is interest, and I show you its not. You claim ?ihtimaam? is interest, and I show you its not. You want me to continue doing your homework for you? You are claiming there is no word for ?interest? in Classical Arabic--that is not believable. You say it is the same as rent, and I gave two examples of classical Arabic words/roots that mean rent (and it does not include lending money, just as it doesn't in English, and which should not surprise anyone who understands the basics of the purpose of language and definitions). The Jews, Christians, Romans, Greeks?all had a word for interest.
JK- Ok so just let it increments then. Would mean the same in the context. It talks about trade being allowed and any increments forbidden. Now the increments logically need to refer to any uncontrolled high pricing. But if one thinks further this can only refer to items necessary for the basic standard of living. This can be implied when GOD mentions the word riba frequently in contrast to giving charity which is obviously not to provide the poor with luxury items but the items which enable them to get to the point of a standard living in society from which any further development would depend on their own efficiency.
Now the increments logically need to refer to any uncontrolled high pricing.
Once again, zero evidence.
I can summarize it. IMO GOD is stating that any trade should be fair. In the above verses it refers to loan in context and that one should not exploit others by taking excessive amounts of profit on loan which people are unable to pay and also that a person should be given more time should he not be able to return the loan immediately(this does not however mean that later on, should he have the money, he still shouldnt pay any interest). Last but not least it would be an extreme act of politeness should the whole loan be given as charity. This is also why some people consider the above verses talking about a loan to poor people who live below the standards and not about ordinary business loans and that would make even more sense. GOD Bless!
2278 - O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left of Al-Riba if you are truly believers.
2279 - And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your original/principal (Ru'oos) wealth (Ammwalikum), you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
Give up what is left of al-Riba (any growth/interest on the principle lent). Only those who repent (by giving up whatever remains of the growth/interest on what is lent) will have back their original wealth. The phrase ?Original/principal wealth? leaves no doubt that anything above the original/principal lent is Riba.
It is no longer useful to discuss this issue with you any further.
peace
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Peace Br. Sharp,
Correct, they are not the same. Lending what you don?t have is much worse, in fact fraudulent. But lending on interest is also forbidden.
Peace Br. David,
Even if that interest is just being charged to maintain one's lent wealth?
I think now we are going in circles. Fractional reserve banking is a new phenomenon. What is 2275-2280 talking about, if not lending what one has?
peace
Ha, ha... I guess you are right. We are going in circles now. I am sorry, I meant that is another issue which further antagonizes the whole gainful lending thing.
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Peace "david",
Peace Jonny_k,
Financial interest is not a modern concept. You are the one that should be able to provide an alternative classical Arabic expression for interest, since you are the one claiming that Riba is not interest. You claim ?faida? is interest, and I show you its not. You claim ?ihtimaam? is interest, and I show you its not. You want me to continue doing your homework for you? You are claiming there is no word for ?interest? in Classical Arabic--that is not believable. You say it is the same as rent, and I gave two examples of classical Arabic words/roots that mean rent (and it does not include lending money, just as it doesn't in English, and which should not surprise anyone who understands the basics of the purpose of language and definitions). The Jews, Christians, Romans, Greeks?all had a word for interest.
Once again, zero evidence.
JK- You ignored many of the important examples i gave plus my final post above in which i summarized it all. But lemme put this nonsensible claim of yours down once and for all. According to you then salat should also mean five daily ritual prayer since sunnis used that word for it and Christians actually used it and still ujse it to mean prayer but we now know that it has nothing to do with prayer but is a commitment. Hajj means pilgrimage according to them but we know it should rather mean argument/debate. So if you rely on how some sectarians used this word then your way off track.
2278 - O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left of Al-Riba if you are truly believers.
2279 - And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your original/principal (Ru'oos) wealth (Ammwalikum), you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
Give up what is left of al-Riba (any growth/interest on the principle lent). Only those who repent (by giving up whatever remains of the growth/interest on what is lent) will have back their original wealth. The phrase ?Original/principal wealth? leaves no doubt that anything above the original/principal lent is Riba.
JK- Actually "maal" does not only mean money but property in general. Now youve tricked yourself. "maal" can also be a car, bus, appartment and any other commodity. And yes in case youve taken Riba before you should ofcourse only get back your original amount of anything, not just money, for this trade was illicit anyways and from then on do it no more. Besides these verses could be talking about lending ANY PROPERTY AS charity to the poor who live below the standards as in contrast to business(bro Edip shares this view) and thus is for the sole purpose pf helping someone. Hence no rent is to be charged at all. Nothing to do with rent on money whatsoever. Man your really confusing things more and more. GOD Bless!
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farida,
Aww, come on. One cannot expect that a person of your conviction about her beliefs would risk chalking up a command which has been revealed to you as a minor sin, hoping that you would be forgiven because of your weakness. If anything, all the verses discussed in this thread regarding Al-Riba would be enough to make any believer cringe with fear of the consequences of taking Al-Riba. Are you willing to risk committing the only sin, the propagator of which has been given a notice of War from God and His prophet? If you sincerely believe that Al-Riba is all kind of interest and one cannot escape it in this world, then God is putting believers through a test which they will not be able to pass, a burden which they will not bear, in which case, where is the guidance for the believers in this corrupt system? Just commands based on His whims? Not one, I repeat, not even one of His commands burdensome on a person, yet He makes an exception with Al-Riba. I'm sorry but I, for one, am not willing to believe that. There has to be something that we are missing. Surprisingly enough, I hear people talk and talk about the traditional thinking and all, still the concept of interest from the same traditional is accepted without question.
Anyway, thanks for your response. Salam
Salaam Brothers
2275, Those who swallow usury cannot rise up ?
278,? give up what remaineth (due to you) from usury?..
279 ?warned of war (against you) from Allah and His messenger?
3130, ..Devour not usury?
4161, And of their taking usury when they were forbidden?
2276 GOD condemns usury, and blesses charities. GOD dislikes every disbeliever, guilty.
3039.. but that which ye give in charity, seeking Allah's Countenance, hath increase manifold?Based on the above surahs I believe that major sin is devouring Al-Riba however giving interest to those who are sinners is sin too, as its encourages the practice of AL-RIBA=interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth.
I have never said that dealing in interest is allowed; if you look at my reply you will\note that I said ?we should not take the law into our own hands" just because we are not traditionalists and I expressed the hope that giving interest out of necessity is a lesser sin that is all. That does not mean I think it?s is right.
Allah(swt)informed us that we would all be judged individually so how can I say what I see as may be forgiviabl in my circumstances could be applied to those in a different position. We are weak human beings and we do make mistake and we ask for forgiveness from the Most Merciful, but to change the laws of the holy Qur?an to suit our perceived needs and modern economy is, I believe, a grievous sin.
Best regards
farida -
Salaam Brothers
2275, Those who swallow usury cannot rise up ?
278,? give up what remaineth (due to you) from usury?..
279 ?warned of war (against you) from Allah and His messenger?
3130, ..Devour not usury?
4161, And of their taking usury when they were forbidden?
2276 GOD condemns usury, and blesses charities. GOD dislikes every disbeliever, guilty.
3039.. but that which ye give in charity, seeking Allah's Countenance, hath increase manifold?Based on the above surahs I believe that major sin is devouring Al-Riba however giving interest to those who are sinners is sin too, as its encourages the practice of AL-RIBA=interest + any other unjust increase/growth in wealth.
I have never said that dealing in interest is allowed; if you look at my reply you will\note that I said ?we should not take the law into our own hands" just because we are not traditionalists and I expressed the hope that giving interest out of necessity is a lesser sin that is all. That does not mean I think it?s is right.
Allah(swt)informed us that we would all be judged individually so how can I say what I see as may be forgiviabl in my circumstances could be applied to those in a different position. We are weak human beings and we do make mistake and we ask for forgiveness from the Most Merciful, but to change the laws of the holy Qur?an to suit our perceived needs and modern economy is, I believe, a grievous sin.
Best regards
faridaSalam farida,
Oh, you have misunderstood. No one is trying to change the laws of the Book. The whole thread has been about a concept (Al-Riba) which has arguably been the most "taken for granted" concept in the Book. Can one say with certainty that something is haram as declared without having full knowledge of it? Attributing something to the Lord is changing the law, isn't it? Just like saying that disbelief in the Hadith is forbidden because the verses in the Book say Obey Allah and obey His messenger.
This thread has some very insightful points on the term Al-Riba, not to brag or anything, but people have made real efforts, not to change the law in the Book but to verify whether Al-Riba actually meaning all-out total interest or not? Granted that not taking or giving any interest is definitely the best because then it becomes like a charity in today's economic system (please see discussion in this thread) but the main theme of Al-Riba is not an increase in your wealth, which is probably universally acceptable. Does interest in the modern world entail increase in wealth? Some of it atleast, yes. Some of which covers the inflationary impact on your lent wealth. Just asking for an amount to maintain the originally maintained wealth is not against any of the impacts of Al-Riba. Anyway, again it is not a matter of getting ratification from other people or anything. Like you said in one thread, its 1736. Would one be willing to say anything without due thought given to it? I mean think about it this way. You lend a Rolls Royce, you get a Rolls Royce back. But with inflation, you lend a Rolls Royce, and you get a Toyota back. Without demanding the Rolls Royce back, you are actually writing off/giving to charity, the difference between the Rolls Royce and the Toyota, which is again better for you but not required. Just like an eye for eye, a life for a life, but if you forgive, it is better for you.
But thanks for your point of view anyway. I know that I held the same view before I started thinking about it. But the hypocrisy and helplessness of it all made me wonder that everybody has failed in this command in the current economy, which just implies me the Book isn't very insightful in keeping up with the changing times...
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Salam farida,
But the hypocrisy and helplessness of it all made me wonder that everybody has failed in this command in the current economy, which just implies me the Book isn't very insightful in keeping up with the changing times...
Salaam bro,
You are talking about the present era, which is considered as the time when satan has been given lose reins. Just glance back at the past golden era where there was no riba. We do not have to change our view because of the helplessness instead we should try to bring about change so that no one will be helpless and The Deen of Allah will prevail.
Best wishes
farida -
Salaam bro,
You are talking about the present era, which is considered as the time when satan has been given lose reins. Just glance back at the past golden era where there was no riba. We do not have to change our view because of the helplessness instead we should try to bring about change so that no one will be helpless and The Deen of Allah will prevail.
Best wishes
faridaSigh... do you truly think that Satan has only been given "loose reins" just in this era? What golden era was there no Riba? Riba has always been there, unfortunately, but considering that there was little or no inflation in the earlier days any and all interest would have been Al-Riba. Anyway, I don't think that I can say anything more about the view that is held about Al-Riba, but I know that it is definitely not as simple as "Al-Riba = Interest" in these times. A bit of information about it, as it was throughout the ages
http//www.mostmerciful.com/riba-revised.htm
God bless
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Sigh... What golden era was there no Riba? Riba has always been there, unfortunately, but considering that there was little or no inflation in the earlier days any and all interest would have been Al-Riba. Anyway, I don't think that I can say anything more about the view that is held about Al-Riba, A bit of information about it, as it was throughout the ages
http//www.mostmerciful.com/riba-revised.htm
God bless
Salaam
do you truly think that Satan has only been given "loose reins" just in this era?
yetbut I know that it is definitely not as simple as "Al-Riba = Interest" in these times.
Sigh!!!
Satan existed before Adam and would last till the world ends. Therefore Satanic practices have always been employed, but there was a golden era, when no slaves were left to be freed, whereas in the present times whole nations are enslaved by the burden of RIba.
All the best
farida -
I understand that with change in prices, the money you lend to somebody may no be the same money you get back if the same amount and the same denomination is paid, and it should be increased or decreased according to the increase in prices, which should be agreed.
Now I hopes either of those interested in the topic say what is riba in the scene I discribe as follows
As to INVEST. If you put it in a bank, what you get paid may be interest, but what the bank usually get is riba(?), since the bank lends over and over the amounts it holds, to people to whom they usually also charge interest. With the riba (?) they also create other instruments whereby we endup having the bubble economy we know so well, where the real economy is buried below virtual unsupported money. As far as I can see, that is ok as long as the banks have a strong public oversight and are forced to invest in the real economy and crete wealth so some saver gets some little increment on his savings, the bank doesn't hoard nor bankers get filthy rich and the society improves. When the bankers start getting filthy rich and instead of investing in creating wealth, they speculate in bubbles, I don't know about interest or riba, but the moment has come to close the banksm give their money back to the savers and fix the economy.
Also, we have got used to interest being the price of money. Is tha really so? If prices do not change overall, I can't see from where the price of money may come. If you want to increase it, you invest. Is there such a thing as an investment where no risk is involved? If you do not want to risk, then don't invest, if prices don't go up, and why should they always go up? you would still have your money and the more you save the more you would have. Why should your money increase by itself? Because the banks can lend the same money over and over? Who should profit from that possibility? Shouldn't that be a public benefit enterprise and not something left to somebody to exploit at will without having to share the benefits of the money of many people with anybody and just pay interest? Whose benefits should be those? Why there sshould be benefits at all except to cover expenses and work?
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Peace "huruf",
Also, we have got used to interest being the price of money. Is tha really so? If prices do not change overall, I can't see from where the price of money may come.
JK- It comes from the borrowers investing/working with that money which they lend and from that pay the price/rent for it just like any other commodity. If they dont make any money through investment or otherwise its not the duty of the lender/bank to run after him and this applies to all other commodities including vehicles, apartments, etc as well. How many time do i have to explain this? Please read my last couple of posts too.
If you want to increase it, you invest. Is there such a thing as an investment where no risk is involved?
JK- There is virtually no investment in which the risk is absolute zero even in interest. Yes the protection there is very great but what if the person who borrowed the money got all his property(on which basis he got the laon) damaged in a natural catastrophe? What if the whole bank goes down in which someone has invested his money and there is no more insurance to cover it up? So no there is never an absolute zero risk BUT THERE SURE CAN BE MEANS OF VERY GOOD PROTECTION. And this is the case for all commodities and not just money/currencies as explained by me earlier as well.
If you do not want to risk, then don't invest, if prices don't go up, and why should they always go up? you would still have your money and the more you save the more you would have. Why should your money increase by itself?
JK- That depends on whether you can get other people to work for you with your property or not. Then ofcourse it can happen and why not. If i say own large acres of land, i can rent it out and increase my wealth thereby. Nothing wrong with that. It happens all by itself since i have arranged all controls like insurance etc. Infact banks by offering you interest take a risk, if but very minute, on themselves. Meaning should they not be able to "rent" out the respective currencies invested with them to others within the year or make any money from other investments of your money or business, theyd have to pay you from their pockets. However they are well insured and hence they can offer it. The main thing to notice here is insurance. And insurance was never ever considered Riba.
Because the banks can lend the same money over and over? Who should profit from that possibility? Shouldn't that be a public benefit enterprise and not something left to somebody to exploit at will without having to share the benefits of the money of many people with anybody and just pay interest? Whose benefits should be those? Why there sshould be benefits at all except to cover expenses and work?
JK- The bank is an organization which USES ITS KNOWLEDGE TO ATTRACT PEOPLE INCLUDING LARGE AMOUNTS OF ADVERTISING TECHNIQUES ETC. They do most of the work for you whilst you just invest with them, sit back and relax. Thats why theres a difference between the interest the bank takes from a debtor and gives to an investor with them on the same currency. Say a bank has an interest rate of 5% on the USD if you want to borrow. Then the interest anyone would get from the same bank should he/she invest with them would be LESS THAN 5%, say 4.5%. Thus the difference .5% is the banks net profit. It's the same like say i find a very rich person who has alot of cars. I tell him that look i have great advertising skills and know how to attract people to rent your cars. Ofcourse id be taking a fixed percentage from whatever price the cars are rented out wont i? This is similar here. If you can "rent" out your money all by yourself, go ahead and do it, nobody is stopping you. Then you can charge the same interest as the bank does or even higher, within legal/social bounds, otherwise it would be Riba. GOD Bless!
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Peace "sharp001" and "david",
You mentioned amongst other thingsby sharp001
The video that you quoted above had another very interesting observation. How can one lend something that one doesn't have? That is the main differnece, in my opinion, between normal renting/lending and lending by/through the current banking system. Renting out a car for profit is okay to everybody because you are actually renting out something physically there and yours. How is that different from a person (not a bank) from lending personal physical cash to someone for profit? What the Bank is doing different is lending out money that isn't even there and not even theirs for profit. Surely they can't be viewed under the same light.by david
Correct, they are not the same. Lending what you don?t have is much worse, in fact fraudulent. But lending on interest is also forbidden.JK- Even this case is not so simple. One can actually further lend out something, which does not belong to oneself, but to another party WITH THAT PARTY'S PERMISSION. You can find such an example in my above post where a skillful businessman may ask a rich car owner to rent out his cars for him and take a fixed percentage of that profit made from the rent. Similar is the case with banks at least private banks. They further mass advertise, so to say, their investors money and rent it out with their permission since we all are also getting paid from that which is termed as interest. Yes the central banks can produce money of their own, think they have been allowed by the state to use a 71 leverage at max against the available property to back it upm and this could be debated whetehr right or wrong since it can cause the economy to collapse one day. GOD Bless!