Financial responsibility of the children.
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Peace to you RaseemNaqqaash,
First, if I want to direct something at you...I will call your name. Other than that, if the shoe fits, you are the one choosing to wear it in public. I didn't put it on your foot. I you have read so many of my posts as you claim, you will know that I have no problem addressing whomever I choose to by their name; just as I am addressing you here now!
Secondly, I personally don't care about your opinions of me and my posts. Your opinion means nothing as can be construed from the fact that you still like to drink alcohol and try to justify it errorneously from Al Quran. As Allah says in Al Quran, don't count your conversion to Islam as a favor to us, but know that Allah has conferred a favor on you for the invitation. So you coming here arrogantly accusing me and making comments about my posts when you still know virtually nothing, is nothing more than a sign of your arrogance.
Third, I don't care about your personal experience. I am not your friend and don't care to know. Again, if you had read so many of my posts as you claim, you would know that I urge people not to tell their personal life in here because personal experiences neither prove nor disprove anything from Al Quran. I am not here to be your friend per se. I have lived long enough to know that not all so called "muslims" will be my friend, and that I will have friends even from those that don't call themselves "muslims". I am here to study, discuss and debate the meaning of Al Quran. If you are here for another reason, I would recommend that you ignore my posts, cause that is all that you will get from me, other than a correction such as this one.
Finally, you need to humble yourself and try to understand Al Quran before you start out on this forum trying to tell everyone what you think it means with authority. You are gonna end up finding that you are misleading many people, as others do here, and then if you truly fear Allah, one day you will regret your arrogance and ignorance. Your positions on alcohol and child support are not thoroughly researched from Al Quran as I can tell by your writing. You simply read something that someone else wrote that you liked and jumped on the bandwagon. Well, Satan and Hellfire have bandwagons as well. So enjoy.
Salaams, jedi
Peace
Is that rant of self-righteousness directed at me, brother? If so, I would request you do not. You know nothing of me, what I know about Islam, or what I care about the will of Allah. As with all the posts I have observed from you, you arrogantly assume to know best or correctly, when, as has been posted to you by others, you are not being clever or 'ironic' with your posts, you are merely playing with words.
If that was directed at me, I would respond that my family are white British. We live in the UK. The UK is not a Muslim country, and does not operate under Islamic Law (sadly) My father in law was not a fit father, or he would have been granted sole custody. He was not. Infact, he was issued with an injunction/restraining order for several years, because he was mentally unstable, and could have posed a threat to his daughter. He was utterly unfit to be a father, and in 20 years, has never proven otherwise. My mother in law raised her daughter well, and her new husband also raised her well as his ward. Her 'biological father', did everything within his power to never pay child maintenance, and never paid a penny, untill she was already over the legal age as an adult, yet always has the nerve to act like he is a perfect father, and a blameless individual. The truth of the matter, is he is a passive/aggressive bully and a coward.
Al Qur'an specifies that a father must make payments for their children following divorce. My father in law did not do that, until threatened with incarceration. (Had he not agreed to pay at his last court appearance, he would not have left the court a free man, but would have been remanded in custody. That is the level and severity which the situation had reached ) He will have to answer to the judgement of Allah for that, and many other things when it is his time to do so.
If your post was not directed at me, (it appeared to be, or, possibly just a baiting exercise to see who would bite) then please disregard my post.
Peace.
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From IQO
Ah, the irony...The irony is that you follow me around like some little puppy to stick your poo next to whatever I write. Do you have a fetish about me and my posts? confused
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Peace.
IQO You posted the following verse
2233
Transliteration Waalwalidatu yurdiAAna awladahunna hawlayni kamilayni liman arada an yutimma alrradaAAata waAAala almawloodi lahu rizquhunna wakiswatuhunna bialmaAAroofi la tukallafu nafsun illa wusAAaha la tudarra walidatun biwaladiha wala mawloodun lahu biwaladihi waAAala alwarithi mithlu thalika fa-in arada fisalan AAan taradin minhuma watashawurin fala junaha AAalayhima wa-in aradtum an tastardiAAoo awladakum fala junaha AAalaykum itha sallamtum ma ataytum bialmaAAroofi waittaqoo Allaha waiAAlamoo anna Allaha bima taAAmaloona baseerun
Literal And the mothers breast feed their children two years complete, to who wanted/intended that (to) complete the lactation/breast feeding period, and on the born to him/father, (is the responsibility of) their provision (F) and their dressing/clothing (F) with the kindness/generosity , (that) no self be burdened/imposed upon except its endurance/capacity , no mother (is) to be harmed with her child, and nor a born to him/father (be harmed) with his child. And on the heir/inharitant similar/equal (to) that, so if they (B) wanted separation (weaning) on acceptance/approval from them (B), and discussion/consultation , so no offense/guilt/sin on them (B), and if you willed/wanted that to seek a wet nurse/breast feeder (for) your children, so no offense/guilt/sin on you if you handed/delivered over what you gave with the kindness/generosity , and fear and obey God, and know that God (is) with what you make/do seeing/knowing/understanding.
Free-Minds And the divorced mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. We do not burden a soul beyond its means. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and council, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of God, and know that God is watching over what you do.
Rashad Khalifa Divorced mothers shall nurse their infants two full years, if the father so wishes. The father shall provide the mother's food and clothing equitably. No one shall be burdened beyond his ability. No mother shall be harmed on account of her infant, nor shall the father be harmed because of his infant. (If the father dies), his inheritor shall assume these responsibilities. If the infant's parents mutually agree to part, after due consultation, they commit no error by doing so. You commit no error by hiring nursing mothers, so long as you pay them equitably. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is Seer of everything you do.
Yusuf Ali The mothers shall give such to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term. But he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms. No soul shall have a burden laid on it greater than it can bear. No mother shall be Treated unfairly on account of her child. Nor father on account of his child, an heir shall be chargeable in the same way. If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay (the mother) what ye offered, on equitable terms. But fear Allah and know that Allah sees well what ye do.Where in this verse did you get the idea that providing for the mother and child was only if she breastfed?
Also, who said the bread winner is the man?
Sakina
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I agree.
Salaam siki
Here is what IMQ said earlier in response 16 to Samia
Al Quran doesn't decide which gender is richer than the other, but Allah does give the responsibility to the men to maintain and provide for the women.But his reply no 8said
Nevertheless, if women want to be "equal" and take on the role as maintainer and provider, why do they even expect to receive financial support? If the men take the children, Quranically they don't get financial support from the ex-wife; so if the women assume this role, why should she, seeing that she is not following Al Quran anyway
plus
The assumption that muslim men run away from this responsibility must be a generality or stereotype from your part of the world. Most men, even if they don't pay child support try to see their children; while of course others just walk away. Generally, those that just walk away are not from marriages, but from those who had children out of wedlock, another issue that arises from disobeying Allah and thus creates unnatural situations.I believe all cases should be dealt with in view of this ?We do not burden a soul beyond its means. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child?
IMQ?s solution is to shift the father?s responsibility to a step mother in return for additional benefit and that
Also, child support agencies would not have to chase fathers if they had given them the proper custody of the kids as Al Quran suggests, IMHO; because the women would not be charged with support, and therefore the government would be out of the people's personal business...unless the father abuses the children by not letting the mother visit them
This is how he looks as world from his point of view and he did not waste time to assume in his reply 25.I am inviting others well versed in the Quran to contribute more for the benefit of children, as this may not be my problem or yours, but it is likely to be the problem of someone near to us
Best regards
farida -
Peace to you RaseemNaqqaash,
First, if I want to direct something at you...I will call your name. Other than that, if the shoe fits, you are the one choosing to wear it in public. I didn't put it on your foot. I you have read so many of my posts as you claim, you will know that I have no problem addressing whomever I choose to by their name; just as I am addressing you here now!
Peace
If that case, you can ignore my post and what I wrote. If the comment was not intended for me, my apologies for assuming it was. However. The rest of your recent post clearly is addressed to me, so I shall reply to it accordingly.
Secondly, I personally don't care about your opinions of me and my posts. Your opinion means nothing as can be construed from the fact that you still like to drink alcohol and try to justify it errorneously from Al Quran.
Firstly, I do not care about your opinions. Your attempt to undermine my credibility as a Muslim, because I choose to occasionally drink alcohol, is pathetic. I have not tried to justify anything eroneously from Al Qur'an. There is no text which specifically states "Alcohol is forbidden." Flesh of swine is forbidden, and specifically named as such. When Al Qur'an is revised to state "Alcohol is forbidden", then I will cease to imbibe it.
As Allah says in Al Quran, don't count your conversion to Islam as a favor to us, but know that Allah has conferred a favor on you for the invitation.
I do not count my conversion as a favor to you, or any other member of this forum. I never stated otherwise.
So you coming here arrogantly accusing me and making comments about my posts when you still know virtually nothing, is nothing more than a sign of your arrogance.
The tone of your posts speaks for itself, as does your use of the title "Imam". By what right do you use that title, either in the real world, or in this forum?
The condescending and belittling tone of your posts speaks for itself, as do the responses you receive from others.Third, I don't care about your personal experience. I am not your friend and don't care to know. Again, if you had read so many of my posts as you claim, you would know that I urge people not to tell their personal life in here because personal experiences neither prove nor disprove anything from Al Quran.
Firstly, who are you to tell people what to tell about their personal lives? By what authority are you acting? There is no 'moderator' tag under your name, so you have no authority whatsover.
Secondly, I was not using my personal experiences to prove or disprove anything from Al Qur'an. I simply stated that this is a subject (Financial responsibility for children) which I feel very strongly about, and explained the reason why that is. I also stated that Islamic law has no bearing on that situation, and explained why. Am I happy that Islamic law has no bearing? Absolutley not. Is there I can do about that? Again, absolutely not. I was not seeking to change the situation, merely illustrate why I feel the way I do about it.I have lived long enough to know that not all so called "muslims" will be my friend, and that I will have friends even from those that don't call themselves "muslims". I am here to study, discuss and debate the meaning of Al Quran. If you are here for another reason, I would recommend that you ignore my posts, cause that is all that you will get from me, other than a correction such as this one.
Given the condescending approach to others and myself, I doubt the sincerity of your desire to study and debate the meaning of Al Qur'an. All I see in your posts, is the desire to force others to agree with your interperetation. I do not seek to make anyone agree with my point of views or interpertations. The closest I would come to such state, is endeavoring to make sure someone understands my point of view, even if they do not agree with it.
Finally, you need to humble yourself and try to understand Al Quran before you start out on this forum trying to tell everyone what you think it means with authority.
I have not tried to tell anyone what I think means has authority. I have explained my points of view. If people agree with me, so be it. If they disagree with me, so be it. I do not need to humble myself before any but Allah. I am not the one brandishing a title as my username.
You are gonna end up finding that you are misleading many people, as others do here, and then if you truly fear Allah, one day you will regret your arrogance and ignorance.
That statement applies to you, way more than it does to me.
Your positions on alcohol and child support are not thoroughly researched from Al Quran as I can tell by your writing.
Wrong. My position on alcohol is thoroughly researched from Al Qur'an, as other responses in my greeting post confirm. Not only is there no commandment specifically forbidding alcohol (many warnings about it, I agree, but nothing outright forbidding it) there is the commandment specifically stating not to come to prayer while intoxicated. As another member pointed out, that passage would be redundant if alcohol was utterly forbidden If someone cannot consume alcohol, they cannot come to prayer while intoxicated. The commandment is not to come to prayer while intoxicated. By definition and implication, that says that alcohol (or other intoxicant) would have to be consumed/consumeable, for the commandment to be relevent.
You do not know my position on child support, so do not assume to state it is poorly researched. Never once did I state that I did not agree with the commandments of child support specified in Al Qur'an. I agree with them fully.You simply read something that someone else wrote that you liked and jumped on the bandwagon.
Yes. I read Al Qur'an, liked what I read, and, experiencing ihsan, jumped on the bandwagon by becoming a Muslim. As a Qur'an-Only Muslim, I follow what is written in Al Qur'an, and nothing else. Not what you say is written in Al Qur'an, or what you think I want to believe is written in Al Qur'an, but what is written in Al Qur'an.
Given that I will now be ignoring your posts, please do not waste your time or mine by replying to this post. It is not my intention to get into debate with you, I am merely stating my opinions, and clearing up some of your misconceived assumptions. You may agree or disagree with them as you wish, I could not care less, but I do not intend to discuss them with you further.
May peace be upon you, brother.
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Peace.
IQO I can see where your name says "Quran Only"
Just curious as to your belief before you came to "Quran Only"?
Do you attest to the fact that you are following the Quran only and that you do not believe that we should follow hadiths?
It appears from your posts that you try to look through the Quran to validate "Sunni" or "Hadith" standpoints or conclusions, and justify those standpoints via Quran. When looking through the verses are you truly being objective (answer only to yourself..if you wish) or are you looking to seek justifications for the "Sunni" "Hadith" thought process?I know you have stated that you are looking in the Quran only....and that you do not believe that Quran without hadith is so much different than Sunnism practices, but have you started your research with this mindset or did you later draw this conclusion?
Sakina
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Peace.
IQO I can see where your name says "Quran Only"
Just curious as to your belief before you came to "Quran Only"?
Do you attest to the fact that you are following the Quran only and that you do not believe that we should follow hadiths?
It appears from your posts that you try to look through the Quran to validate "Sunni" or "Hadith" standpoints or conclusions, and justify those standpoints via Quran. When looking through the verses are you truly being objective (answer only to yourself..if you wish) or are you looking to seek justifications for the "Sunni" "Hadith" thought process?I know you have stated that you are looking in the Quran only....and that you do not believe that Quran without hadith is so much different than Sunnism practices, but have you started your research with this mindset or did you later draw this conclusion?
Sakina
Salaam Sakina08,
I notice that IQO has not bothered to reply to your post, despite the fact that he has been inviting others to join in this discussion. According to him there is no obligation on the father to think of the mother of the children or the children themselves, as he says.
I don't see that the children have a right to decide who they want to stay with BASED FROM AL QURAN.He avoids addressing this part of the commandments where mutual consent is mentioned No mother shall be Treated unfairly on account of her child. Nor father on account of his child, an heir shall be chargeable in the same way. If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them.
Since parents are responsible for the children it is incumbent upon them to make sure that the children?s rights are protected.I look forward to your further contribution on this subject
Best regards
farida -
Peace.
Hi farida,
I appreciate your reply. I recall a verse that says something to the effect of those who greet you with a greeting other than what Allah greets you with you should beware or something to that effect. It made me think of IQO because he has on the bottom of his posts salaam alykum wr wb or something to that effect. I wonder how many members are really Sunnis trying to disguise themselves. Why be so unbalanced and sexist? Why uphold sexist ideologies from Sunnis and then claim they are quranic? I really think there are quite a few members who are really in disguise, I am not sure if he is one of them or not, but it appears from his posts and attitude that is could be possible. Aren't the believers supposed to be kind to one another and tough with the unbelievers? If this is true either a) he is not following the quran or b) he takes us as "nonbelievers"
This is the only conclusion I can come to now...
a person can debate but to make blatantly sexist and rude statements and come across as harsh isn't the way I beelive
Doesn't the quran say that if Muhammad has been hard hearted no one would have followed him.....?????
Sakina
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There is one thing that strikes me. While I have a hopeless memory to remember number of ayas, I do know many parts of the Quran and remember what is enjoined or commanded and I have never seen myself so much under the need of citing numbers continually. Of course, I don't find wrong to quote always aya number and sura. It is essential if we want to comment or learn. However what strikes me is the fact that we get very picky and detailed about what this particular little letter here or there is, but we may joygfully jump over things that are mamnifestly clear in the Truthful Qur'an and the human fitra and we don't need to rememeber any particular quote for that. Like, for instance, the Qur'an enjoins and commands equity and fairness and justice and not trespassing on the limits all over it, but it seems as that if we can cling to a little aya here or there that says x, and that that x suits a particular subject a way we choose even if on applying x selectively we get a wicked, unfair, and over the limits result, we seem to be satisfied that that result should be according to the qur'an. But nothing that flaunts fairness, equity or justice is according to the qur'an, no matter if we can find an aya or a part of it that we say is applicable or that is so apparently. I think that is what the Pharisees did. Indeed we should always ask ourselves whether something we come up with is in fact really fair, and justice and equity are served. If we are contented with merely having found a little recipe that should assuage our ritual need, then we are taking the Qur'an as a magic object and not as a guide. We would be nothing nothing but "clever" idolaters.
Salaam
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Peace.
Exactly haruf.
Is it fair to say anyone does not have rights, no matter their sex, age, or race?
This should be an easy question..
even non-muslims living around muslims still have rights, so how about a believing mother and her believing child?
This again should be an easy question...
sakina
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Peace.
Doesn't the quran say that if Muhammad has been hard hearted no one would have followed him.....?????
Sakina
Salaams
Exactly!! I pray that IQO softens his approach, as he has got lot to offer and I am not sure if he does hold the Sunni belief as man Sunni's do not think like him. I can not blame his culture because from that same culture we have seen the likes of Mohammad Ali and Malcolm X. I only wish that he would deflate his inflated ego and join us for the betterment of all. peace
Salaam Huruf
However what strikes me is the fact that we get very picky and detailed about what this particular little letter here or there is, but we may joygfully jump over things that are mamnifestly clear in the Truthful Qur'an and the human fitra and we don't need to rememeber any particular quote for that. Like, for instance, the Qur'an enjoins and commands equity and fairness and justice and not trespassing on the limits all over it, but it seems as that if we can cling to a little aya here or there that says x, and that that x suits a particular subject a way we choose even if on applying x selectively we get a wicked, unfair, and over the limits result, we seem to be satisfied that that result should be according to the qur'an. But nothing that flaunts fairness, equity or justice is according to the qur'an, no matter if we can find an aya or a part of it that we say is applicable or that is so apparently. I think that is what the Pharisees did. Indeed we should always ask ourselves whether something we come up with is in fact really fair, and justice and equity are served. If we are contented with merely having found a little recipe that should assuage our ritual need, then we are taking the Qur'an as a magic object and not as a guide. We would be nothing nothing but "clever" idolaters.
You have spoken for most of us here bravo
Best regards
farida -
Salaams
Exactly!! I pray that IQO softens his approach, as he has got lot to offer and I am not sure if he does hold the Sunni belief as man Sunni's do not think like him. I can not blame his culture because from that same culture we have seen the likes of Mohammad Ali and Malcolm X. I only wish that he would deflate his inflated ego and join us for the betterment of all. peace
Salaam Huruf
You have spoken for most of us here bravoBest regards
faridaPeace sister farida
In time, even Malcolm X turned away from such extremist belief, to a more balanced view of Islam, and was indeed, highly critical of those who shared his former beliefs. I view him as proof that people's opinions can change for the better, and that they should then be judged by those new beliefs, rather than their old ones.
Peace.
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come on ,, The guy (iqo) just demands , that you support your views from quran, not what you think should be right, and i absolutely agree with him on this.
It is infact poor on our part that we do not put in efforts, and hence are unable to research, and find arguments in support of our views from the Book itself.
siki
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come on ,, The guy (iqo) just demands , that you support your views from quran, not what you think should be right, and i absolutely agree with him on this.
It is infact poor on our part that we do not put in efforts, and hence are unable to research, and find arguments in support of our views from the Book itself.
siki
Salaam Siki
Please tell me what makes you think we are not supporting views from the Qur?an. This thread was started to get to an understanding regarding financial responsibility for children from the Qur?anic point of view but IQO made it a gender issue. I hope he turns his attention back to this subject again, instead of asking irrelevant questions like
Then what is you opinion who think that "Quran /Allah permits/allows 'satanic acts'"??. confusedSalaam brother RN,
In time, even Malcolm X turned away from such extremist belief, to a more balanced view of Islam, and was indeed, highly critical of those who shared his former beliefs. I view him as proof that people's opinions can change for the better, and that they should then be judged by those new beliefs, rather than their old ones.
You are right about Malcolm X I do not believe we can change anyone; the change has to come from within. I have a feeling that bro IQO is a loving and soft person around his family (chicken) and to compensate for that he puts up that bossy act on this forum.
Best regards,
farida -
Salaam brother RN,
You are right about Malcolm X I do not believe we can change anyone; the change has to come from within. I have a feeling that bro IQO is a loving and soft person around his family (chicken) and to compensate for that he puts up that bossy act on this forum.Best regards,
faridaSalaam sister Farida,
Indeed, change must come from within, and when it does, it is a truly glorious experience. Indeed, we cannot, and indeed, should not, try and change anyone. Al Qur'an states there is no compulsion in religion, and the sura about unbeleivers is incredibly tollerant of differences in opinion. All we can do, is act as messengers, and pass the message on to those who will be open to it.As for brother IQO, I would not guess about his home life or circumstances, but I think that his choice to use the title of Imam is very telling about his views about himself, others, and his interperetations of Al Qur'an
Peace.
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come on ,, The guy (iqo) just demands , that you support your views from quran, not what you think should be right, and i absolutely agree with him on this.
It is infact poor on our part that we do not put in efforts, and hence are unable to research, and find arguments in support of our views from the Book itself.
siki
Even if you support your views with quraanic verses/ways of word usage and they do not conform to his understanding he accuses you of manipulation and bias. I agree he has a lot to offer, and I agreed with him on more points than we disagreed, but I do not understand why, when it comes to polygamy and men's/women's role he loses it completely.
If you read his earlier posts, he was very nice and understanding, even in discussing polygamy. Maybe too many people attacking him puts him on the defensive and makes him more aggressive. If we are all calm and soft, aggression will not last long. We should learn to calm each other and ignore the harsh language in their posts. They will definitely give it up at the end. Remeber Violence begets violence. -
Salaam sister Farida,
Indeed, change must come from within, and when it does, it is a truly glorious experience. Indeed, we cannot, and indeed, should not, try and change anyone. Al Qur'an states there is no compulsion in religion, and the sura about unbeleivers is incredibly tollerant of differences in opinion. All we can do, is act as messengers, and pass the message on to those who will be open to it.As for brother IQO, I would not guess about his home life or circumstances, but I think that his choice to use the title of Imam is very telling about his views about himself, others, and his interperetations of Al Qur'an
Peace.
Salaam Brother RN
I respect you do not want to dwell on someone?s personal life and that is an honourable attitude.
I have noticed a softer family side of IQO in another thread, where he talks about his children with a lot of affection, but there are other children too, whose parents (mostly it?s the fathers) have no regards for their duty as parents. A small example can be seen in the thread on the subject of fathers in the parents sections.
And as Samia said Violence begets violence so love humility and a greater understanding should be encouraged. I would hence invite brother IQO to pack away his anger and join the discussion, in the interest of children so that the parents may understand their duties as the state grants them more rights.
Best regards
farida -
Even if you support your views with quraanic verses/ways of word usage and they do not conform to his understanding he accuses you of manipulation and bias. I agree he has a lot to offer, and I agreed with him on more points than we disagreed, but I do not understand why, when it comes to polygamy and men's/women's role he loses it completely.
If you read his earlier posts, he was very nice and understanding, even in discussing polygamy. Maybe too many people attacking him puts him on the defensive and makes him more aggressive. If we are all calm and soft, aggression will not last long. We should learn to calm each other and ignore the harsh language in their posts. They will definitely give it up at the end. Remeber Violence begets violence.;;; I agree;;;