Greetings
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Also, answer the question of why would Allah give prophet Isa the power to turn water into wine, knowing that people would be "drinking freely" of it?
The passage might not appear in Al Qur'an, but, it is still attributed to one of Allah's prophets, and, Al Qur'an states to treat all prophets the same.That's faulty logic. The idea of turning water into wine isn't in the quran but the quran states it has the deen, fully explained. An inauthentic hadeeth, whether it is from Bukhari or Muslim, or Matthew or Mark, cannot be attached to the quran as a footnote - period. Is there any way you can prove the authenticity of that narration without basing it on hearsay and conjecture? NO.
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That's faulty logic. The idea of turning water into wine isn't in the quran but the quran states it has the deen, fully explained. An inauthentic hadeeth, whether it is from Bukhari or Muslim, or Matthew or Mark, cannot be attached to the quran as a footnote - period. Is there any way you can prove the authenticity of that narration without basing it on hearsay and conjecture? NO.
Peace
I did originally state that it was not a Qur'anic text, and although I certainly would not consider it as 100% accurate, as it is not a Qur'anic text, as it is on a related note to the issue (is alcohol specifically forbidden by Al Qur'an) it is certainly worth mentioning, even if just as a related issue to consider, rather than being considered as definite 'evidence' one way or another. As I have said numerous times now, my reading of Al Qur'an has not found any instance of alcohol being specifically named and forbidden, where flesh of swine, fornication with one's mother in law or sister in law, for example, are specifically named and forbidden. All I see, are severe warnings and rhetorical questions, which we are able to choose to agree with or ignore. As you yourself said, if a Muslim cannot consume alcohol, then the commandment not to come to prayer while drunk, would be redundant and irrelevent. I find nothing in Al Qur'an redundant or irrelevent.
Ultimately, this discussion has arrisen because people disagree with my personal choice, and feel that they have the right to change my opinion, without actually providing the necessary Qur'anic text to do so. I am not going to change my opinion without considerable Qur'anic proof that alcohol is specifically named and forbidden, so such cyclical arguments are pointless. I am content to continue as I am, and let Allah judge me when the time comes.
Peace.
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The quran seems to make a different case here, consider that it describes the consequences of this act and who endorses it as well. The consequences are rather clear, the path you will take is very clear and that path is definitely not the right path. Going back a page
Peace brother
Allah did not say that Alcohol is forbidden anywhere in Al Qur'an. Forbidden foods and acts are specified. Without specification, such things cannot be forbidden (even if warned against), they can only be left to a person's free will to choose for themself.
You have the free will and you are also told exactly where it will lead you.
you are clearly the one who cannot understand Qur'anic command not to come to prayer while drunk, but to wait till you understand what you say. For a Muslim to come to prayer drunk, then they must have consumed alcohol. If alcohol is forbidden (which it is not) then the command not to come to prayer while drunk would be redundant and irrelevent. Nothing in Al Qur'an is redundant or irrelevent.
Peace.
Salat is clearly intimately tied with the concept of being a muslim and keeping and strengthening your belief. This is where opinions will differ, because I just cannot see how coming to a ritual prayer drunk will do anything good or bad for you. You may get some Sunnis trying to beat you up with shoes (Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 81, Number 770, Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid) but at the end of the day, how will it destroy your belief in god? So that is an inconsistency, not in the quran's commandment to avoid intoxication for salat but in the interpretation of salat itself.
You're absolutely right there about how non-believing Arabs are portrayed. However, there still exists the precedent of converts to Islam adopting Arabic names. Malcolm X, and Yussuf (Cat Stevens) Islam to name but two
Islam is both a personal and organized religion, organized because the people who observe it correctly WILL work together. Changing your name will have no effect on how god treats you and I guess it'll be quite a lot of bureaucracy involved.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in many passages in Al Qur'an, particularly ones refering to abstaining from certain things, or doing certain things (such as fasting) there is also the accompanying statement that Allah does not wish difficulty for us, but wishes for our ease. Is that not correct?
Definitely, in the fasting verses IIRC.
In the situation I encountered, before my immediate family had come to undestand my conversion to Islam, keeping to the fast on that occasion would have created numerous difficulties, and served to alienate me from those I love. Also, as we travelled 60 miles for the meal, I forget if it is specified in Al Qur'an or sunnah/hadith, but I read online, in my research into Islam and Ramadan in particular, that someone travelling such a distance, does not actually have to observe the fast as they are travelling.
If you want, go right ahead. It doesn't affect me, I have little knowledge of what's going on, and at the end of the day, you won't be answering to me for your actions.
That is an utterly ludicrous extrapolation. No one was being crucified in the restaurant. There were no lives in danger (other than from possible food poisoning ) so the situation really isn't comparable at all.
That was the whole point. If you don't have the willpower to keep a reasonably trivial thing like a fast (let's keep this disconnected from your actual experience, for sheer ease), then how could you have the willpower to speak out in a worse condition?
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You have the free will and you are also told exactly where it will lead you.
Peace
Therefore it is my choice, and me alone, who will, if it is Allah's will, be punished for that. I would think that many other good acts, will be taken into consideration of something, which is only advised/warned against, but not specifically forbidden.
Salat is clearly intimately tied with the concept of being a muslim and keeping and strengthening your belief. This is where opinions will differ, because I just cannot see how coming to a ritual prayer drunk will do anything good or bad for you. You may get some Sunnis trying to beat you up with shoes (Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 81, Number 770, Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid) but at the end of the day, how will it destroy your belief in god? So that is an inconsistency, not in the quran's commandment to avoid intoxication for salat but in the interpretation of salat itself.
I agree, praying while drunk will not destroy someone's belief in Allah. It is, however, as disrespectfull, and ill-advised, as phoning someone you love while intoxicated, and expecting them to take anything uttered in that state seriously.
That is why I never pray while drunk, and indeed, as I stated several times do not even drink enough to become intoxicated on the rare occasions when I do consume alcohol.
Islam is both a personal and organized religion, organized because the people who observe it correctly WILL work together. Changing your name will have no effect on how god treats you and I guess it'll be quite a lot of bureaucracy involved.
Forgive my ignorance, brother, but how is that statement (as accurate as it is) in any way relevent to this discussion? I am only using an Arabic name on this forum, as it is in keeping with the subject of discussion. I have no intention whatsoever to take the steps to make it my legal name or be known by it outside of this forum.
Definitely, in the fasting verses IIRC.
And in many other verses as well, but indeed, specifically in the fasting verses. The point being, the fast is not intended to cause difficulties, as Allah wishes our ease. There are also conditions where the fast is not required. If one does not have to make the fast due to those conditions (travel, for example) then not fasting on that day, while technically breaking the practice of fasting for the month of Ramadan, is not invalidating a day's fast, as the conditions state one does not have to fast while under those conditions.
If you want, go right ahead. It doesn't affect me, I have little knowledge of what's going on, and at the end of the day, you won't be answering to me for your actions.
Indeed, I will not. Nor will Allah hold the 'broken fast' against me, as He will know firstly, that had the day been a regular day, then I would have kept the fast, as I had kept every other fast during Ramadan to that period, so I will be judged by my intention, and secondly, He will know, that by travelling that distance, the stipulation to fast was lifted, so it was not required of me on that day.
That was the whole point. If you don't have the willpower to keep a reasonably trivial thing like a fast (let's keep this disconnected from your actual experience, for sheer ease), then how could you have the willpower to speak out in a worse condition?
No, let's keep it connected to my experience, because it was exceptional circumstances, rather than any other day for fasting. As mentioned previously, had I chosen to keep the fast on that day (which, due to travel I was not obliged to do) then that would have created signifigant difficulties and ill-feeling among my family, and, as mentioned, Allah does not wish us difficulty, but wishes our ease. Other than that one day, I kept every other fast during Ramadan, both before, and after that day, and have also fasted several times since then. My will-power is not the issue. The issue, was the circumstances involved, and how keeping the fast would have done more harm than good.
Peace
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Peace and greetings, brothers and sisters.
I have been reading the forum, and felt it time to register. I am a recent convert to Islam, and, from my studies, have always found myself fitting into the Qur'an-Only aspect of Islam, as I feel that a person should look to a religion's scripture, rather than the practices and dogma of it's contemporary followers, many of which, are of practices never mentioned in the original scripture.
I have never been a particularly religious person, but I have always been a spritual one, and, when I started reading the Holy Qur'an several months ago, I found myself agreeing with the message within, and strove to incorporate that into my everyday life. It was not long after that, that I experienced ihsan, and realized that I should be a Muslim, and live my life as the Holy Qur'an dictates, so that is what I have done, and have felt incredible peace and benefit from it.
I chose this forum name(s) as they describe me as a person. I have not changed my name to an Islamic one, but for such a forum, I felt it appropriate to use an Islamic name, and one which described me seemed the best way to go, rather than to simply choose something I liked, or at random, or even the closest equivelent to my own name.
One aspect of my lifestyle which others might not agree with, is that I occasionally drink alcohol. My reading of the Holy Qur'an, is that there is no passage which specifically forbids the consumption of alcohol, as there are passages which specifically forbid the consumption of flesh of swine. There are, however, passages which state not to come to prayer while intoxicated (which in itself would require the drinking of alcohol) but to wait until one can understand what one utters, so indeed, as is only correct and respectful, I do not pray while drunk (infact, I never drink enough to become intoxicated) Other passages point out there being more sin than profit in wine and games of chance, but, they do not specifically forbid them They simply point out the issue, and then allows people to make their own choice, as indeed, Allah grants us all free will to make our own choices. My choice is that I occasionally drink alcohol (never to excess) as there is no commandment specifically forbidding it. I have never particularly enjoyed pork products, so that is not a difficult thing to give up, and, thanks to the guidance of brother Muslims at my local kebab shop, I am able to eat halal food daily. Indeed, these brothers were instromental in my decision to convert, as they were the ones who, upon learning that I had started reading the Holy Qur'an, encouraged my studies, and treated me like a brother.
My conversion came just before Ramadan, and I observed it fully, breaking only one fast, and that was to attend a dinner for my mother in law's birthday in early October. Initially, I felt like I had let myself and Allah down, by not sticking to the fast, but, my brother in the kebab shop pointed out that there are many Muslims who do not keep to the fasts at all, and, that I had eaten out of social politeness, not because I wanted to break the fast, so that greatly lifted my spirits, and I made up the fast as soon as was permissable afterwards.
I look forward to learning more from everyone here.
Peace be upon you.Peace Brother, welcome
I am really happy for you and take your time brother to get accustomed to the Deen. Don't let any one here stress you out about it. It is my firm belief that God is far more understanding and compassionate and forgiving than any of us frail humans.
The fact that He has opened your heart to Islam is in itself a great sign of His favor to you, so don't be disheartened by any of the less understanding comments here. I am a revert myself so I think I have a better grasp, than those who were born into the faith, of the challenges that face a new Muslim.
My heartfelt congratulations on this great event in your life brother and may God be with you and ever guide you! D
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Peace
Therefore it is my choice, and me alone, who will, if it is Allah's will, be punished for that. I would think that many other good acts, will be taken into consideration of something, which is only advised/warned against, but not specifically forbidden.
Peace, just because it's your choice doesn't mean you alone will reap the benefits and harms of alcohol. So you drink and are happy. Your neighbour sees a drunkard on the street (i.e. you) - big deal, you're entitled to your fun. So it continues, and all sorts of things happen until you hop in your car and mow a kid down - big deal? Definitely. Just because the majority get away with casual drinking the majority of the time doesn't mean the combined effects of the problematic minority and also the majority of people who just happen to have issues at the moment, will be insignificant. Not specifically forbidden - 100%. But whereas the quran has a blanket ban on things like pork, without a specific reason, there is no ban here but there is a reason, or rather, a consequence given.
I agree, praying while drunk will not destroy someone's belief in Allah. It is, however, as disrespectfull, and ill-advised, as phoning someone you love while intoxicated, and expecting them to take anything uttered in that state seriously.
Do you believe that bowing up and down opens a connection to a pervasive, all-knowing and all-hearing entity?
Forgive my ignorance, brother, but how is that statement (as accurate as it is) in any way relevent to this discussion? I am only using an Arabic name on this forum, as it is in keeping with the subject of discussion. I have no intention whatsoever to take the steps to make it my legal name or be known by it outside of this forum.
Just to pound the point through voodoo
And in many other verses as well, but indeed, specifically in the fasting verses. The point being, the fast is not intended to cause difficulties, as Allah wishes our ease. There are also conditions where the fast is not required. If one does not have to make the fast due to those conditions (travel, for example) then not fasting on that day, while technically breaking the practice of fasting for the month of Ramadan, is not invalidating a day's fast, as the conditions state one does not have to fast while under those conditions.
Like I said, you're not answering to me and I don't know anything about your fast so - -\
No, let's keep it connected to my experience, because it was exceptional circumstances, rather than any other day for fasting. As mentioned previously, had I chosen to keep the fast on that day (which, due to travel I was not obliged to do) then that would have created signifigant difficulties and ill-feeling among my family, and, as mentioned, Allah does not wish us difficulty, but wishes our ease. Other than that one day, I kept every other fast during Ramadan, both before, and after that day, and have also fasted several times since then. My will-power is not the issue. The issue, was the circumstances involved, and how keeping the fast would have done more harm than good.
Fair enough. I'm just saying that it takes a bit of sacrifice and coming out of your comfort zone to really achieve anything and do it well.
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Peace, just because it's your choice doesn't mean you alone will reap the benefits and harms of alcohol. So you drink and are happy. Your neighbour sees a drunkard on the street (i.e. you) - big deal, you're entitled to your fun. So it continues, and all sorts of things happen until you hop in your car and mow a kid down - big deal? Definitely. Just because the majority get away with casual drinking the majority of the time doesn't mean the combined effects of the problematic minority and also the majority of people who just happen to have issues at the moment, will be insignificant. Not specifically forbidden - 100%. But whereas the quran has a blanket ban on things like pork, without a specific reason, there is no ban here but there is a reason, or rather, a consequence given.
Do you believe that bowing up and down opens a connection to a pervasive, all-knowing and all-hearing entity?
Just to pound the point through voodoo
Like I said, you're not answering to me and I don't know anything about your fast so - -\
Fair enough. I'm just saying that it takes a bit of sacrifice and coming out of your comfort zone to really achieve anything and do it well.
brickwall brickwall brickwall
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sun peace sun
i hope you can enjoy it here, brother. just wanted to say hi again. may Allah bless you and guide you, R. so where are you from? what books do you like? what music? coffee or tea?
Peace and greetings, sister, may Allah bless and guide you also. I am British, I originally lived 2 hours south of London, but now live 3 hours north of it ) I like all manner of music and books, I do not think there is any kind of music I do not like, although I do prefer some kinds to others As with music, the books I read vary on my mood. Sometimes I like to read encyclopedias and almanacs, sometimes I like to read fiction. As for coffee or tea, my preference is for tea, but I will drink coffee (esp Spanish-style ie with condensed milk, "cafe con leche" as it is called in Spain )
Br. RN,
I apologize. You are entitled to your own beliefs and practices as well as everyone else here.
Peace to you
Peace, brother, your apology is most welcome, and of course, accepted.
Peace.
Peace Brother, welcome
I am really happy for you and take your time brother to get accustomed to the Deen. Don't let any one here stress you out about it. It is my firm belief that God is far more understanding and compassionate and forgiving than any of us frail humans.
The fact that He has opened your heart to Islam is in itself a great sign of His favor to you, so don't be disheartened by any of the less understanding comments here. I am a revert myself so I think I have a better grasp, than those who were born into the faith, of the challenges that face a new Muslim.
My heartfelt congratulations on this great event in your life brother and may God be with you and ever guide you!
Peace, brother,
I think you are quite right, a convert to Islam is more likely to investigate and then understand issues, rather than someone 'born and raised' into the faith, who might not necessarily have actually come to realization, but simply follows the practices from habit.Indeed, the more negative comments here do not really concern me, as the guidance of my Muslim brothers locally has been more beneficial and enlightening.
Peace, just because it's your choice doesn't mean you alone will reap the benefits and harms of alcohol. So you drink and are happy. Your neighbour sees a drunkard on the street (i.e. you) - big deal, you're entitled to your fun. So it continues, and all sorts of things happen until you hop in your car and mow a kid down - big deal? Definitely. Just because the majority get away with casual drinking the majority of the time doesn't mean the combined effects of the problematic minority and also the majority of people who just happen to have issues at the moment, will be insignificant. Not specifically forbidden - 100%. But whereas the quran has a blanket ban on things like pork, without a specific reason, there is no ban here but there is a reason, or rather, a consequence given.
Peace, brother. Keep such statements to yourself. You are not an uneducated person, and have no-doubt read what I have written, rather than simply glossing over, and making ill-informed assumptions. Therefore, you know that I have stated that I never consume alcohol to the point of intoxication, so your first comment about my neighbours seeing me drunk in the street, is false and libelous. As is the comment about 'hopping into my car and mowing a child down'. First of all, I do not even have a driving licence or a car. I have never had the need to have either, as my feet, or public transport have always been all the transport I need. I do not condone drink-driving under any circumstances, so kindly do not ascribe such incorrect statements to me from your assumptions.
You have already stated that alcohol is not utterly forbidden by Al Qur'an, so why take such a negative tone with me?Do you believe that bowing up and down opens a connection to a pervasive, all-knowing and all-hearing entity?
Do you?
I am a Qur'an-Only Muslim. That is all you need to know about my belief. Anything else, is between myself and Allah.
Just to pound the point through voodoo
Unnecessarily. Arguing for the sake of arguing. Not far removed from trolling.
Like I said, you're not answering to me and I don't know anything about your fast so - -\
But you do know about my fast, because I explained the situation above, and mentioned Qur'anic commands about it, so do not pretend to be in ignorance, when you were previously only too happy to throw around accusations of lack of will power. If you do not understand the situation, then you certainly had no right to make such a statement.
Fair enough. I'm just saying that it takes a bit of sacrifice and coming out of your comfort zone to really achieve anything and do it well.
And I have done that. There are, however, matters of reason and ettiquette, and I will gain nothing from making members of my family resentfull or uncomfortable by my conversion to Islam. It is also not for me to insist that my family convert to Islam, as there is no compulsion in religion. Wether that is satisfactory to you, I could not care less, I submit myself to the will and judgement of Allah, and no other.
Peace
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Peace and greetings, sister, may Allah bless and guide you also. I am British, I originally lived 2 hours south of London, but now live 3 hours north of it I like all manner of music and books, I do not think there is any kind of music I do not like, although I do prefer some kinds to others D As with music, the books I read vary on my mood. Sometimes I like to read encyclopedias and almanacs, sometimes I like to read fiction. As for coffee or tea, my preference is for tea, but I will drink coffee (esp Spanish-style ie with condensed milk, "cafe con leche" as it is called in Spain )
ah, London... one brother i know calls it "the city of Muslims". peace it's a pleasure to meet you. have you ever read any Syed Hossein Nasr? he has a wonderful book on sufi thought that you might enjoy, "the garden of truth". may Allah bless you, and keep you well, brother.
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ah, London... one brother i know calls it "the city of Muslims". peace it's a pleasure to meet you. have you ever read any Syed Hossein Nasr? he has a wonderful book on sufi thought that you might enjoy, "the garden of truth". may Allah bless you, and keep you well, brother.
Indeed, there are now many Muslims in London. I do not travel to it as often as I used to, but it is a city I enjoy being in. Likewise, it is a pleasure to meet you, sister. I have not read any of the author's works, but I have always been interested in spiritual and mystic topics, so a book on Sufi would indeed be something that would interest me, thankyou for recommending it.
May peace be upon you, sister.
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Peace, brother. Keep such statements to yourself. You are not an uneducated person, and have no-doubt read what I have written, rather than simply glossing over, and making ill-informed assumptions. Therefore, you know that I have stated that I never consume alcohol to the point of intoxication, so your first comment about my neighbours seeing me drunk in the street, is false and libelous. As is the comment about 'hopping into my car and mowing a child down'. First of all, I do not even have a driving licence or a car. I have never had the need to have either, as my feet, or public transport have always been all the transport I need. I do not condone drink-driving under any circumstances, so kindly do not ascribe such incorrect statements to me from your assumptions.
Salam,
I have to apologize if you think my posts were intended in a negative fashion in any way, they weren't - just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood what I was saying broadly. For instance, here you interpreted it as if I was ascribing those things to you, but I wasn't. Apologies if I didn't make it clear enough, but I was talking about the general case, and a few examples, not necessarily the same person. It's a simple fact that alcohol in a majority will cause problems and in the current world, it's a major problem. The same things as I said, then you have the hidden effects on people who, say, grow up with rowdy & abusive fathers or parents with a drinking problem (I know a few such people and they aren't very well off from it). It's a rather established fact that Britain of all places has issues with drinking - not major, definitely but surely it has more effect than just what we see late at night (see for instance this link). So again, I was trying to drive the point that just because you alone make the choice, i.e. the cause, doesn't mean the effect will only come back onto you alone - especially on a very large scale.
So ascribing harmlessness to alcohol, is far from the case; intoxicants constitute the biggest killers around (,), both directly and from related illnesses in developed countries. There is a reason it's called a satanic act in the quran - because it is. It doesn't appear harmful at all to an individual, that is the "whisper" or "temptation" but on the large scale, it results in chaos.
You have already stated that alcohol is not utterly forbidden by Al Qur'an, so why take such a negative tone with me?
I hope I've made myself clearer here -\
Do you?
For the time being, no. Not until I get solid evidence from somewhere. But please do note the boldened words, and what I asked - does making those movements initiate some sort of connection between you and god that wasn't already there? Something your own brain isn't making up for you (placebo effect, or the "I remember this happened because I want it so badly to have happened" effect)?
I am a Qur'an-Only Muslim. That is all you need to know about my belief. Anything else, is between myself and Allah.
Do you think the quran preserves itself? It's a huge collaboration, and certainly not a 'miracle'. If everyone of those people preserving it (by memory, etc) used this line to justify their beliefs, what hope would islam have of spreading? It's already not in the best state with a whole set of specific meanings assigned to everything in the quran by fatwa-happy "scholars", do you think your exact opposite ideal will help anything? Call yourself muslim all you wish - everyone has the right to do that. On the other hand, to call yourself "quran only" and then not follow through with it to the best of your ability - that makes you no different from a cultural muslim. People do get their ideas of islam off other people's actions, most people have little idea otherwise. Why do you think that the vast majority of criticism of islam is on the people who follow it and not the teachings (and the slim amount that is aimed at the quran is either fraudulent or misguided, again because of the same people)? Again, I hope you won't interpret this as a negative thing, but the quran places a limit on you following your desire, and that limit is achieved through reason and following the book well.
Unnecessarily. Arguing for the sake of arguing. Not far removed from trolling.
Actually not at all. On another forum I frequented a while back, there were some recent converts (or 'reverts', if you want), who were so ridiculously extreme in their thinking that it was scary, to know these people were around. Now, having extreme beliefs is one thing but I'm concerned about the method which was equally extreme, just a "this is my way of belief, don't like it? shove it" line of thinking and that is what I like to call, "close-minded". What I couldn't understand is why these people who barely converted not only condoned the death penalty for apostates of islams, but welcomed it readily (more than the "already sunni" group there). It's counter-intuitive and again, comes from the mindset they started off with. How does that relate to willpower? Read the story of Abraham. He kept a pure open mind and he was guided as a result, and also gained willpower, as a result. So in my experience, converts tend to be overly extreme in their beliefs and reasoning and I just don't like seeing that happen. Maybe you're different, maybe you're like them, but there's no way to really tell over the web.
But you do know about my fast, because I explained the situation above, and mentioned Qur'anic commands about it, so do not pretend to be in ignorance, when you were previously only too happy to throw around accusations of lack of will power. If you do not understand the situation, then you certainly had no right to make such a statement.
Again I hope I clarified myself.
And I have done that. There are, however, matters of reason and ettiquette, and I will gain nothing from making members of my family resentfull or uncomfortable by my conversion to Islam. It is also not for me to insist that my family convert to Islam, as there is no compulsion in religion. Wether that is satisfactory to you, I could not care less, I submit myself to the will and judgement of Allah, and no other.
That's great you said that (I don't remember telling you to convert your parents? hmm), and keep it up. Nor am I in a position to say it's "satisfactory", which is what I keep trying to tell you, but you insist otherwise and then tell me I'm wrong - confused
Peace...
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Salam,
I have to apologize if you think my posts were intended in a negative fashion in any way, they weren't - just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood what I was saying broadly. For instance, here you interpreted it as if I was ascribing those things to you, but I wasn't. Apologies if I didn't make it clear enough, but I was talking about the general case, and a few examples, not necessarily the same person.
Salam brother,
Your tone and context did appear to refer to me specifically, rather than generalizationsPeace, just because it's your choice doesn't mean you alone will reap the benefits and harms of alcohol. So you drink and are happy. Your neighbour sees a drunkard on the street (i.e. you) - big deal, you're entitled to your fun. So it continues, and all sorts of things happen until you hop in your car and mow a kid down - big deal?
Perhaps your intention was not to mean me specifically, perhaps it was not. You do not strike me as someone unintelligent enough to be so vague in wording, where you could have replaced 'you' with 'someone', hense why I took the comments as personal attacks.
It's a simple fact that alcohol in a majority will cause problems and in the current world, it's a major problem. The same things as I said, then you have the hidden effects on people who, say, grow up with rowdy & abusive fathers or parents with a drinking problem (I know a few such people and they aren't very well off from it). It's a rather established fact that Britain of all places has issues with drinking - not major, definitely but surely it has more effect than just what we see late at night (see for instance this link). So again, I was trying to drive the point that just because you alone make the choice, i.e. the cause, doesn't mean the effect will only come back onto you alone - especially on a very large scale.
So ascribing harmlessness to alcohol, is far from the case; intoxicants constitute the biggest killers around (,), both directly and from related illnesses in developed countries. There is a reason it's called a satanic act in the quran - because it is. It doesn't appear harmful at all to an individual, that is the "whisper" or "temptation" but on the large scale, it results in chaos.
I hope I've made myself clearer here -\
I understand your point, brother, but, we are only responsible for our own actions, not the actions of others. I do not deny that alcohol (and other drugs) can cause problems, but, those are other people's problems, arising from their own personal weaknesses, not mine. Just because I might choose to occasionally have a glass of wine with a meal, that does not make me responsible for the alcoholic down the street, who considers a six-pack of beer, and giving the wife a black eye, to be his evenings entertainment. I know my limits for alcohol. It is for them to know their own limits. Throughout Al Qur'an, there are warnings not to 'exceed the limits' (bounds etc depending on translation)
For the time being, no. Not until I get solid evidence from somewhere. But please do note the boldened words, and what I asked - does making those movements initiate some sort of connection between you and god that wasn't already there? Something your own brain isn't making up for you (placebo effect, or the "I remember this happened because I want it so badly to have happened" effect)?
If it is not stated thus in Al Qur'an, then no. It is a somewhat irrelevent querstion, and I must admit I am not seeing its relevence to the topic under discussion.
Do you think the quran preserves itself? It's a huge collaboration, and certainly not a 'miracle'. If everyone of those people preserving it (by memory, etc) used this line to justify their beliefs, what hope would islam have of spreading? It's already not in the best state with a whole set of specific meanings assigned to everything in the quran by fatwa-happy "scholars", do you think your exact opposite ideal will help anything?
I must admit, I cannot see the relevence of this question either. All the time hardcopy of Al Qur'an exists, it is preserved in an un-corruptable version. Preserving it by memory is admirable, but, memory is falible, so that could make such recitations fallible. As for what hope would Islam have of spreading, that is a rather different matter. Islam is submission to Allah. Someone may read about it, or be told about it verbally, but either way, they are still being told about Islam, thus it would continue to spread.
Call yourself muslim all you wish - everyone has the right to do that. On the other hand, to call yourself "quran only" and then not follow through with it to the best of your ability - that makes you no different from a cultural muslim.
Again, I take that to refer to me directly, rather than others. I do follow Al Qur'an to the best of my ability, as I illustrated above with my comments about alcohol not being specifically forbidden, and how people travelling are excused from fasting for that day. That is information I had to research, learn, and accept, for myself, which makes me very different to a cultural Muslim, who may simply follow a practice out of habit, but with no idea as to why that practice is required.
People do get their ideas of islam off other people's actions, most people have little idea otherwise. Why do you think that the vast majority of criticism of islam is on the people who follow it and not the teachings (and the slim amount that is aimed at the quran is either fraudulent or misguided, again because of the same people)? Again, I hope you won't interpret this as a negative thing, but the quran places a limit on you following your desire, and that limit is achieved through reason and following the book well.
Indeed, I quite agree with your points, brother. A person should only judge a religion by the content of it's original scripture, and nothing else.
Actually not at all. On another forum I frequented a while back, there were some recent converts (or 'reverts', if you want), who were so ridiculously extreme in their thinking that it was scary, to know these people were around. Now, having extreme beliefs is one thing but I'm concerned about the method which was equally extreme, just a "this is my way of belief, don't like it? shove it" line of thinking and that is what I like to call, "close-minded". What I couldn't understand is why these people who barely converted not only condoned the death penalty for apostates of islams, but welcomed it readily (more than the "already sunni" group there). It's counter-intuitive and again, comes from the mindset they started off with. How does that relate to willpower? Read the story of Abraham. He kept a pure open mind and he was guided as a result, and also gained willpower, as a result. So in my experience, converts tend to be overly extreme in their beliefs and reasoning and I just don't like seeing that happen. Maybe you're different, maybe you're like them, but there's no way to really tell over the web.
I quite agree. There is a difference between 'fundementalism' (the study of 'fundementals' and 'extremism' (taking things to their most extreme outcome) I would view myself as a fundementalist, as I study Al Qur'an, and only take that as true guidance. While the teachings and hadiths of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, can be interesting, or provide insight or an example, they are not Al Qur'an, and, following those teachings and hadiths is not 'obeying the messenger', but 'adding another to Allah', so I do not follow them. (particularly not when a passage in Al Qur'an warned Muhammad, peace be upon him, specifically by name, that our guidance was not his affair, but Allah will guide whom He chooses)
Again I hope I clarified myself.
Not really, no.
That's great you said that (I don't remember telling you to convert your parents? hmm), and keep it up.
Irrelevent point, I never said that you did. The point I was making, was that my family are not Muslims. Keeping to the fast in the restaurant, would have created difficulties. Difficulties, are something Allah does not wish us, as he wishes us ease.
That caveat is itself over-ruled, by the statement that travellers are not required to keep the fast. Had I chosen to, it would have been better, but, there was no fault by not keeping it, as it was not required for me on that day (due to travel)Nor am I in a position to say it's "satisfactory", which is what I keep trying to tell you, but you insist otherwise and then tell me I'm wrong - confused
Do not try to twist my words. I am not trying to insist that you are in a position to say what is satisfactory. I was saying, that having already stated that alcohol is not specifically forbidden, continue to point out issues of my choice to consume it. And raised doubt about my will power, despite the clear examples that the broken fast was not a failing of will power, but a fast not taken under circumstances where no fast was required. I was merely pointing out, that for someone who (by their own admission) is not in a position to state what is or is not satisfactory, are certainly spending a lot of time trying to criticise/draw attention to/find fault, where there is none.
Peace
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What about Pork ,that will provide you high protein diet.
Peace,
I don't eat pork of many reasons. Quran state clearly that pork(flesh of swine) is forbidden. And also the Bible in GT says is forbidden.
But there are also many studies that says that pork contains bad virues etc that isn't good for us. There are so many other protein sources we can eat.Maria
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Salam brother,
Your tone and context did appear to refer to me specifically, rather than generalizationsPerhaps your intention was not to mean me specifically, perhaps it was not. You do not strike me as someone unintelligent enough to be so vague in wording, where you could have replaced 'you' with 'someone', hense why I took the comments as personal attacks.
Salam, bro, that's where the benefit of the doubt comes in. Ask yourself, does it make sense to you that someone who says they aren't in a position to know whether you fasted correctly or not even with all the information you gave, will then strike up trivial details about your life and predict your future for you? Come on... Keep in mind as well, that the posts are getting pretty long and I'm preoccupied with a few other personal things at the moment, so I can't just go over them again.
I understand your point, brother, but, we are only responsible for our own actions, not the actions of others. I do not deny that alcohol (and other drugs) can cause problems, but, those are other people's problems, arising from their own personal weaknesses, not mine. Just because I might choose to occasionally have a glass of wine with a meal, that does not make me responsible for the alcoholic down the street, who considers a six-pack of beer, and giving the wife a black eye, to be evening entertainment. I know my limits for alcohol. It is for them to know their own limits. Throughout Al Qur'an, there are warnings not to 'exceed the limits' (bounds etc depending on translation)
If it is not stated thus in Al Qur'an, then no. It is a somewhat irrelevent querstion, and I must admit I am not seeing its relevence to the topic under discussion.The issue is that using a simple technicality is not a good idea. It's in the greyest part of the grey line and we should err on the side of caution. Again, a general thing - you know very well that your lone drinking won't do anything but again, in the bigger picture, it makes alcohol just that little bit more socially acceptable, and that builds up a habit and tolerance in everyone, over time - it's happening with everything nowadays - the plethora of sexual deviancy (not that all of it is "bad" or cannot be helped by the people, but again...), acceptance of gambling, etc - person A won't care about person B doing act X because A has already done act X, which may or may not be harmful to them in the short term, but the combined effects of X are just not wanted. Sometimes it's good (i.e. increasing acceptance of black people and minorities) and sometimes it's bad. The quran just does not sanction the bad things without any compelling need to do so. If you can't make the link between your small choices and the bigger picture, then there's a slight problem, isn't there?
I must admit, I cannot see the relevence of this question either. All the time hardcopy of Al Qur'an exists, it is preserved in an un-corruptable version. Preserving it by memory is admirable, but, memory is falible, so that could make such recitations fallible. As for what hope would Islam have of spreading, that is a rather different matter. Islam is submission to Allah. Someone may read about it, or be told about it verbally, but either way, they are still being told about Islam, thus it would continue to spread.
You have to forgive me because I tend to make links between things that may seem unrelated a lot and forget them even more. As for the hard copies - they have not been preserved perfectly, the addition of vocalisation marks is an example - the earliest texts don't have them. The simple reason being, that it was a spoken language in the language of the messenger's own community, and it's in the name 'quran' itself, a recital. In any case, the last thing we as muslims need is more division - well, second last, the last being unity in stupidity.
As for "Islam is submission to Allah" - "Islam" is a sect/religion just like Christianity and Judaism, it's like we have religious corporations or something competing for market domination - at least, to the average person. You might see that "islam is just submission to Allah" but the average person is reminded of Sunni-ism, and just violence, I would think. The problem is that people base it on faith instead of reason so "Islam" becomes another fairy tale. In the quran, it's a different story but again, you can't take your study which is no doubt a lot further than most people into islam and then say everyone knows all the misconceptions and other things.
Now, to relate back - if you followed "Quran only Islam" and said "my belief is between me and Allah alone" - that helps absolutely nothing. Your inner belief is 100% between you and god alone but how you act and speak, that is under everyone else. Islam, defined in the quran, is not just a personal religion - it's a deen/code of life, as many a Sunni loves to say. And peer review or scrutiny is no different with regards to this than how your actions would be judged by others if you were atheist. And again, I don't want to get cheesy but by claiming "Quran only Islam", you assign a label to yourself and others assign a label to your actions so when they see you drink, that gives an impression. The whole point is, you need organisation. A common Sunni joke about quranists is "The quranists gather for their first congregational salat. One quranist prays towards Makkah, another towards Jerusalem. Another is praying in any direction while another still is sitting down and meditating. The last of them sits in the corner reading his quran and claiming the others are following silly beliefs". The sad thing is, that joke is quite true. A result, of everyone interpreting the quran according to their desires and having the erroneous belief that a single person is all it takes to 100% understand the quran.
Messenger's people aside, the most successful people in the history of Islam were those in the "Golden Age". Do you think a group of quranists today following your idealogy of "I follow Quran only Islam and my beliefs are between me and God alone" could honestly stand a chance of recreating that utopia? Muslims haven't produced an Ibn Al-Haytham for a millenium now and with idealogies like that and "Follow the ulema, they know best" around, we are royally screwed.
Again, I take that to refer to me directly, rather than others. I do follow Al Qur'an to the best of my ability, as I illustrated above with my comments about alcohol not being specifically forbidden, and how people travelling are excused from fasting for that day. That is information I had to research, learn, and accept, for myself, which makes me very different to a cultural Muslim, who may simply follow a practice out of habit, but with no idea as to why that practice is required.
Indeed, I quite agree with your points, brother. A person should only judge a religion by the content of it's original scripture, and nothing else.
Yes, in an ideal world that would be the case. Guess where we live -\
I quite agree. There is a difference between 'fundementalism' (the study of 'fundementals' and 'extremism' (taking things to their most extreme outcome) I would view myself as a fundementalist, as I study Al Qur'an, and only take that as true guidance. While the teachings and hadiths of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, can be interesting, or provide insight or an example, they are not Al Qur'an, and, following those teachings and hadiths is not 'obeying the messenger', but 'adding another to Allah', so I do not follow them. (particularly not when a passage in Al Qur'an warned Muhammad, peace be upon him, specifically by name, that our guidance was not his affair, but Allah will guide whom He chooses)
Yes, the most important thing however is to not be hard-hearted and be open to change. As it says in the quran, god will never change you if you do not open yourself to change (1311), and considering that good comes from god alone (by definition), can you honestly say you can do without following that verse? You might have a "my way or the highway" thinking now (note not saying you as literally you) but if you're open to change then surely you will improve.
Not really, no.
God willing, we'll get there ;D.
Irrelevent point, I never said that you did. The point I was making, was that my family are not Muslims. Keeping to the fast in the restaurant, would have created difficulties. Difficulties, are something Allah does not wish us, as he wishes us ease.
That caveat is itself over-ruled, but the statement that travellers are not required to keep the fast. Had I chosen to, it would have been better, but, there was no fault by not keeping it, as it was not required for me on that day (due to travel)As I said, you don't have to justify yourself to me, because I'm not in a position to judge. Let's move on, I like moving on.
Do not try to twist my words. I am not trying to insist that you are in a position to say what is satisfactory. I was saying, that having already stated that alcohol is not specifically forbidden, continue to point out issues of my choice to consume it. And raised doubt about my will power, despite the clear examples that the broken fast was not a failing of will power, but a fast not taken under circumstances where no fast was required. I was merely pointing out, that for someone who (by their own admission) is not in a position to state what is or is not satisfactory, are certainly spending a lot of time trying to criticise/draw attention to/find fault, where there is none.
As for the bold, consider that you indirectly just did in the previous paragraph. Pointing out faults with alcohol - can you honestly blame me for doing that when the book I believe to come from God repeatedly does so and for a good reason?
For the underlined section - I don't know why you've kept this assumption through the last page or 2, considering I've already said that's not the case. This, is what I meant by you insisting, you can stop mentioning (as in justifying) anything about your fasts or whatever other personal issue you had now, because the idea that it's between you and god is already recognized, by I think all on this forum and rest assured, nobody on this forum is God.So let's move forward ;D
Peace
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Salam, bro, that's where the benefit of the doubt comes in.
I give benefit of the doubt when it is due. As I said, you are not an unintelligent person, and, from the specific precision of your posts, I do not think that you would use the general meaning 'you' for 'someone', but would write 'someone' instead. I take your use of the word 'you' (in those specific sentances) to refer to me, and your comments protesting innocence, come across as backpeddling because I stood up to the inferences.
Ask yourself, does it make sense to you that someone who says they aren't in a position to know whether you fasted correctly or not even with all the information you gave, will then strike up trivial details about your life and predict your future for you?
Internet trolling rarely makes sense, but it still occurs.
Keep in mind as well, that the posts are getting pretty long and I'm preoccupied with a few other personal things at the moment, so I can't just go over them again.
If you cannot give the posts your full attention, brother, then feel free to ignore them until you can consider your response fully. I have not been sitting at my computer all afternoon. Infact, I left the house twice, fed the animals, cooked dinner, ate dinner, and still found the time to give your posts my full attention when I responded to them.
The issue is that using a simple technicality is not a good idea. It's in the greyest part of the grey line and we should err on the side of caution.
Why should we err on the side of caution? Free will means precicely that. Freedom of choice, and acceptance for decisions resulting from it. I read a newspaper article about a girl who went to Amsterdam for a friend's birthday party, got incredibly drunk, and woke up the next morning to find that she had a smiley face, and a sad face, tattooed on either breast. She is now trying to campaign to have a 24 'cooling off period' instated for tattoo studios. rotfl rotfl rotfl Most tattoo studios require bookings (so considerably more than 24 hours), and anyone who would tattoo an intoxicated person, has no business being a tattoo artist, so in all honesty, this unfortunate (like many of her generation) is simply trying to blame someone else for her poor choices, and refusing to accept the responsibility for her own actions and choices.
As for the hard copies - they have not been preserved perfectly, the addition of vocalisation marks is an example - the earliest texts don't have them. The simple reason being, that it was a spoken language in the language of the messenger's own community, and it's in the name 'quran' itself, a recital.
I see the point you are making, but, it does not really apply. Addition of vocalisation marks does not change the word which has been written, it just tells someone how to pronounce the words (if they were not to know) That is not the same as mistranslating sections of text, or substituting one word for a similar one.
As for "Islam is submission to Allah" - "Islam" is a sect/religion just like Christianity and Judaism, it's like we have religious corporations or something competing for market domination - at least, to the average person. You might see that "islam is just submission to Allah" but the average person is reminded of Sunni-ism, and just violence, I would think. The problem is that people base it on faith instead of reason so "Islam" becomes another fairy tale. In the quran, it's a different story but again, you can't take your study which is no doubt a lot further than most people into islam and then say everyone knows all the misconceptions and other things.
Their misconceptions are not my fault, or my concern. If they choose to educate themself about Islam, they would soon discover the truth about it, rather than the media demonization of it.
Now, to relate back - if you followed "Quran only Islam" and said "my belief is between me and Allah alone" - that helps absolutely nothing. Your inner belief is 100% between you and god alone but how you act and speak, that is under everyone else. Islam, defined in the quran, is not just a personal religion - it's a deen/code of life, as many a Sunni loves to say. And peer review or scrutiny is no different with regards to this than how your actions would be judged by others if you were atheist. And again, I don't want to get cheesy but by claiming "Quran only Islam", you assign a label to yourself and others assign a label to your actions so when they see you drink, that gives an impression. The whole point is, you need organisation. A common Sunni joke about quranists is "The quranists gather for their first congregational salat. One quranist prays towards Makkah, another towards Jerusalem. Another is praying in any direction while another still is sitting down and meditating. The last of them sits in the corner reading his quran and claiming the others are following silly beliefs". The sad thing is, that joke is quite true. A result, of everyone interpreting the quran according to their desires and having the erroneous belief that a single person is all it takes to 100% understand the quran.
And one which is clearly stated in Al Qur'an. A practical instance of the differences, are the various practices for making wudu in the various branches of Islam. What does it matter if the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, not only washed his hands/arms to the elbows, but also washed his elbows? What does it matter what order the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, chose to make wudu? It does not matter at all (other than to raging hadithists) The order for making wudu is clearly specified in Al Qur'an, and that is all a Muslim need follow.
Messenger's people aside, the most successful people in the history of Islam were those in the "Golden Age". Do you think a group of quranists today following your idealogy of "I follow Quran only Islam and my beliefs are between me and God alone" could honestly stand a chance of recreating that utopia? Muslims haven't produced an Ibn Al-Haytham for a millenium now and with idealogies like that and "Follow the ulema, they know best" around, we are royally screwed.
You are distorting the intention of my reply. If someone is to ask about a practice out of genuine interest in Islam, then I would answer them to help educate them. When I am asked such a question, in the middle of an utterly un-related discussion, it appears to be nothing more than an attempt to belittle and condescend.
Yes, in an ideal world that would be the case. Guess where we live -\
There are many things in the world which would need to occur before it is 'ideal', but the chances of that happening, are not very good.
Yes, the most important thing however is to not be hard-hearted and be open to change. As it says in the quran, god will never change you if you do not open yourself to change (1311), and considering that good comes from god alone (by definition), can you honestly say you can do without following that verse? You might have a "my way or the highway" thinking now (note not saying you as literally you) but if you're open to change then surely you will improve.
Indeed, and I am open to change. I would not have experienced ihsan, and converted to Islam, if I was not. I am not saying "my way or the highway." Al Qur'an is not my way. It is Allah's way. It is Allah's way or the highway. I follow Allah's way. Of course, others need to be equally open in order for Allah to speak to them.
As for the bold, consider that you indirectly just did in the previous paragraph. Pointing out faults with alcohol - can you honestly blame me for doing that when the book I believe to come from God repeatedly does so and for a good reason?
Yes, because, Al Qur'an does not specifically forbid alcohol. You yourself pointed out that the passage about coming to prayer intoxicated would be redundant if Muslims could not drink alcohol at all. You cannot argue that the text permits alcohol, but then start pointing out the negatives in a critical manner, for any reason other than the desire to be argumentative, or to change someone's opinion (to not consume alcohol).
Warnings are warnings. Forbidden is forbidden. If something is forbidden, then I do not do it. If it is only warned against, then I use my free will to make my own decision, and then live by the consequences of it.
For the underlined section - I don't know why you've kept this assumption through the last page or 2, considering I've already said that's not the case.
Stop trying to twist my words, brother. I am not trying to insist that you are in a position to say what is satisfactory. I said, and will say again, that you are acting in a way (intentionally or otherwise) which suggests that you feel that you require satisfaction in your answers, otherwise, there would be no point in debating an issue back and forth. If you agree with me, you agree with me. If you do not, then you do not. The explanations I have given about my fast, were not intended to satisfy/convince you of anything in terms of altering your opinion, they were merely intended as explanations so you would understand the issues involved.
Peace
giveup -
Peace Farida
I think you make a good point with verses 53/38-41 that one is responsible for the decisions they make and the actions they take. Quran-Alone would do well to take note that people will have opinions that are right and some that are wrong and that s/he and anyone else cannot guide the people.
Joe
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Indeed, there are now many Muslims in London. I do not travel to it as often as I used to, but it is a city I enjoy being in. Likewise, it is a pleasure to meet you, sister. I have not read any of the author's works, but I have always been interested in spiritual and mystic topics, so a book on Sufi would indeed be something that would interest me, thankyou for recommending it.
May peace be upon you, sister.
Salaam
Kahlil Gibran my favourite especially The Prophet
peace