Washing and wudu in the quran?
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In other words, you did not use cross-referencing nor work within rules of Arabic grammar for your proposed translation?
simple, you often post translations, nearly all of which ignore cross referencing and rules of Arabic grammar. Please note, that does not make then incorrect, simply poorly researched and presented.
Why do you think that? I believe everybody does this within their capacity of understanding - it is the most basic ingredient for this type of work- apart from the meaning being in line with reality - which i can say with my hand on my heart most of the currant translations ain't.
You may i think accept cuckoo birds talking, people changing into monkeys and swine or sticks changing to snakes - unfortunately i think that is a very very poor capacity of understanding of life itself and quite simply poorly researched and presented- don't you?
God Bless.
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Rather than conjecturing upon what I may or may not think, how about actually backing up your translations with cross-referencing and working within Arabic grammar?
If that is too much to ask of you, then just say so.
That is a good point- i will try to do more in future if i can.
God Bless Waqas.
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Peace "simple",
You may i think accept cuckoo birds talking, people changing into monkeys and swine or sticks changing to snakes - unfortunately i think that is a very very poor capacity of understanding of life itself and quite simply poorly researched and presented- don't you?
JK- Well as for cuckoo birds talking obviously all or most life forms communicate with each other in one way or another and obviously the Arabic word "kalaam" does not apply exclusively to human speech. As for solomon communicating with other life forms this is very inline with reality considering learned pattern recognition. The zebras are a marvellous example who can detect whether a lion is hungry and out to get them whilst he is still lying calm in the field merely by studying his facial patterns. Regarding the changing into monkeys and pigs this is a well known idion in Arabic, as also pointed out by bro Edp, and it does not men a physical change, though it should be noted that BOTH pig and ape DNA are very similar to ours. As for the stick turining into snakes here ill agree that the translation of "asak" is probably wrong as bro Arnold has pointed out. Overall i tend to agree with you and that supernatural interpreations of certain Quranic verses are wrong as well as salat, hajj etc being ritutals which i do NOT agree with anymore. regarding the washing we'll just have to wait and see to which conclusions further indepedent research leads. GOD Bless!
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my main concern is an overemphasis on codified grammar that was codified with an obvious axe to grind - and while overemphasising this grammar people tend to ignore an interpretation which doesn't fit their worldview but makes perfect sense all the same.
like do people seriously need god to tell them to take a bath?
is anyone even considering what simple wrote here as a possible interpretation? like read it and think about it... that's my concern
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peace Aaron, all,
Didn't know if the question was to me, but I don't know who codified the grammar or for what purpose. I've read some names and some reasons, but they are irrelevant to me.
Perhaps I should have said, a translation that works within Quranic grammar/possibilities/boundaries.
With a poorly researched and presented translation, this is very difficult to judge, hence my line of questioning.
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what makes simple's research poor in comparison to research conducted by any of the rest of us?
you said why? when? in this thread?
By being poorly researched (ignoring grammar and cross-referencing) and poorly presented (not broken down, making it difficult to verify).
Ideologically speaking, I have no objection to an alternative. My understanding is dynamic, not static.
what does "better researched" mean?
Googled definition of "research" systematic investigation to establish facts.
If you or simple feel there was a systematic approach, feel free to enlighten us.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14407.msg144113#msg144113
Some quotes from a grammer expert.
Salaam Elke, Anwar...All
I do not think grammar was derived from the qur'aan nor confirmed by it. Arabic grammar as we were taught is more complicted than that of the qur'aan. Example is the dual rule, which is hardly recognized in the qur'aan, or the definition of plurals as human and non human. And most important the existance in the qur'aan of the specific feminine, contrary to linguistics rules of all languages, including Arabic.
Salaam warner
What would be my "reference" to check those errors? Maybe the error is in Seibawaih's understanding of the grammar of the Quran, or maybe the Quran was revealed in the spoken language (no strict grammar) and hence it was arabic (clear, undrstandable). Read this
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/language.htmThe meaning will not change. These are the kind of "errors" we use in the spoken Arabic no case ending; no dual verbs or adjectives (and sometimes no dual nouns); sound plural is commonly in the accusative/genetive , moving from the 1st person to the 3rd person...
I never thought of this before I read Ayman's article, but I am more inclined to believe that the Quran was revealed in the spoken language, and was understood; until Sibawaih complicated everything
Seems Br. Ayman has already been there
I never thought of this before I read Ayman's article
All the best Br's.
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thanks for the info simple.
So for sake of argument, let's say Quran has no solid grammar rules, that's fine with me, but if one is translating with no reference to grammar, why not state so?
Why are you seemingly so reluctant to mention "the following translation does not work within conventional Arabic grammar rules and does not use cross referencing" (or something similar) when you post a "translation"? I dont understand your determination to find a more correct translation on the one hand, yet neglect or fail to mention a rigorous methodology on the other hand.
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i agree with ayaani,
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful...pikthall
other translation use
when ye prepare for prayer. ali
When you are about to pray. asaddoes anyone know if 'when you rise up' is a good translation...could it mean when you arise in the morning only? i cant speak a lip of arabic.
i remember being told (from hadith) that if you had made your first wudu of the day and put on socks (some say only leather) then you only needed to wipe your socks with water on your next wudu, but the quran says 'wash your feet up to your ankles' and even sunni will attest that no hadith can supercede an aya, but still its done. i do it even though i know it makes a hypocrite out of me but 'Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty' and taking off and on your socks throughout the day proves a small nuissance. perchance i should change. what do you guys do?
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i agree with ayaani,
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful...pikthall
other translation use
when ye prepare for prayer. ali
When you are about to pray. asaddoes anyone know if 'when you rise up' is a good translation...could it mean when you arise in the morning only? i cant speak a lip of arabic.
i remember being told (from hadith) that if you had made your first wudu of the day and put on socks (some say only leather) then you only needed to wipe your socks with water on your next wudu, but the quran says 'wash your feet up to your ankles' and even sunni will attest that no hadith can supercede an aya, but still its done. i do it even though i know it makes a hypocrite out of me but 'Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty' and taking off and on your socks throughout the day proves a small nuissance. perchance i should change. what do you guys do?
I have sometimes thought why stand up!
good you brought it up.
in lanes the root is Qam not Qama.
and it says "to take/ eat/ devour something"
vow!
page 2003.
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peace,
does anyone know if 'when you rise up' is a good translation...could it mean when you arise in the morning only? i cant speak a lip of arabic.
Not knowing Arabic will only hold you back in some cases, but since there are tools available online like never before, this can be minimised. See www.studyquran.org where you will find a link to an online word for word translation (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Quran_ArabicEnglish_WordforWord_Translation.htm / http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/contents). Alternatively, you may wish to use http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm and find the root in that specific form and see its other usage. Use the "which root is being used?" as a starting point. If no luck, see Qaf-Waw-Miim.
in lanes the root is Qam not Qama.
and it says "to take/ eat/ devour something"
Firstly, who said the root is "qama"? And by saying the root is "qam" I assume you mean Qaf-Alif-Miim. (often the Waw/Alif/Ya are interchanged depending on how the lexicographer classifies it)
Also, you said it was in Lane page 2003. Do you mean this page of Lane http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000288.pdf ?
If so, where exactly?After you clarify the above, is your suggested translation "O you who believe, if you eat to the counsel..." ?
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0
