The enemies of reason. A must see!
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Peace "Mahmud",
I'm not at all impressed by dawkins's documentaries. He doesn't approach his subject matters with a desire to understand but only to ridicule and dismiss. He has a naive, 19th century Whig attitude towards natural science and zero understanding of social science and philosophy.
JK- I believe in most points hes absolutely right. Look at what ridiculous nonsense people believe in. Astrology, alchemy(not to be confused with original islamic alchemy which is much the same as modern chemistry), psychic telepathy, homeopathy, talking to the dead, etc etc none of whch has been proven. And hows Dawkins got a naive attitude towards natural sciences and no understanding of social science and philosophy? Id like you to elaborate on that. In short DAWKINS, RANDI, DERREN BROWN, SHERMER ARE CLOSER TO THE QURAN THAN ALL THOSE WHO BELEIVE IN PARANORMAL STUFF AND CREATIONISTS PUT TOGETHER! GOD Bless!
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Really? You say that, open the Quran, and what do you see? It's a world of Angels and Jinns, where the Pharoh has prophetic dreams, where the Messengers of Allah guide the people with miracles form above. It's a world full of magic, good and evil. I'm not saying I believe in any 'alternative' medicine, but how can you call Dawkins 'Islamic' for rejecting anything that can't be scientifically measured, weighed or dissected?
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Peace "Mahmud",
Man you really need an update. Hey somebody from freeminds could you please put up brother Arnold's aticle "The evolution of thinking" on the front page.THERE IS NO SUPERNATURAL EVENT IN THE QURAN IF THE VERSES ARE TRANSLATED CORRECTLY. Heres bro Arnold's article
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0
Angels, jinn etc havnt you been following brother ARnold's posts here at all? Otherwise you wouldve known these terms mean Universal Forces and Hidden tribes/Elite(which are hiden from the general public)/part of human's psyche repectively. GOD Bless! -
Indeed, I apologise, I have not read brother Arnold's articles. But may I ask how would you answer the criticism that you're reading modern ideas into an anchient text? Even if the languge in the Quran can, when you try hard enough, be translated to exclude the supernatural, that is definately not he way it would have been understood in the Prophet's time, considering Arabs are culturally quite supersticious, and I mean that in the nicest possible way, being part Arab myself.
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Peace "Mahmud",
Indeed, I apologise, I have not read brother Arnold's articles. But may I ask how would you answer the criticism that you're reading modern ideas into an anchient text? Even if the languge in the Quran can, when you try hard enough, be translated to exclude the supernatural, that is definately not he way it would have been understood in the Prophet's time, considering Arabs are culturally quite supersticious, and I mean that in the nicest possible way, being part Arab myself.
JK- The very statement "that is definitely not the way it would have been understood in the prophet's time" is highly speculative and is false. On the contrary the Prophet Muhammad came to break superstitions and the ROOT meaning of the above mentioned terms do NOT have a superstitional meaning to them. So why, if the overall message of the Quran is not be superstitious plus the root meaning not haing anything to do with supernatural meanings, would they take it as supernatural? YES certain parties did turn back on their heels and that is our famous ahlussunnah wal jammah and the shittes. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Mahmud",
Surely this means you're replacing superstition with conspiracy theories - is that really an improvement?
Jk- Carl Sagan once said "Extra ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Indeed we claim that there is a BIG not only a small conspiracy in the Arab world and theres tons of evidence to support it. As i sai by just checking the root meaning of the words used in the Quan and then analysing the context it has become clear. Thats what weve been doing all the time at free-minds. Thats what wer all about. Thats what our independent research is leading to more and more. In today's world we can also clearly see how Islamists use Quranic verses to justify violence and how they practice taqiyya to lie to the west. I myself oneself was deobandi radical and i, being curious, asked an Imam to give me a Quranic verse which at least indicates that the Eid-ul-Adha(the great eid of sacrifice during hajj) prayer is mentioned. And you know what he did. He pointed out a verse from sura al kauthr "fa sallili rabbika wanhar(and salli to ur lord and sacrifice". So you can see that if these guys can twist verses like this to mean what they want they can do alot more and that is also more than clear. It's almost if not as clear as the holocaust, big bang and the theory of evolution. It is now an established fact and every day more of their lies and deccits are being exposed. GOD Bless!
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That's not what I mean. There's a difference between taking existing records of how the Quran has been interpreted over the years, noting how this interpretation has been twisted by hadith, and correcting it, on the one hand, and on the other hand simply deciding the Quran shouldn't contain anything supernatural, and so selectively removing any mention of miracles, magic and Jinns.
By interpreting Angels, jinn etc as "Universal Forces" and "Hidden tribes/Elite", you're just substituting a commonly understood meaning with an esoteric one. Believing in "hidden tribes" isn't any more scientific than believing in goblins, UFOs or anything else. Neither are scientifically verifiable.
Nutcase "Look over there, there's a fairy!"
Scientist "Where? I can't see anything"
Nutcase "Of course not, it's invisible"Nutcase "Look over there, there's a Hidden Tribe!"
Scientist "Where? I can't see anything"
Nutcase "Of course not, it's hidden" -
That's not what I mean. There's a difference between taking existing records of how the Quran has been interpreted over the years, noting how this interpretation has been twisted by hadith, and correcting it, on the one hand, and on the other hand simply deciding the Quran shouldn't contain anything supernatural, and so selectively removing any mention of miracles, magic and Jinns.
By interpreting Angels, jinn etc as "Universal Forces" and "Hidden tribes/Elite", you're just substituting a commonly understood meaning with an esoteric one. Believing in "hidden tribes" isn't any more scientific than believing in goblins, UFOs or anything else. Neither are scientifically verifiable.
Nutcase "Look over there, there's a fairy!"
Scientist "Where? I can't see anything"
Nutcase "Of course not, it's invisible"Nutcase "Look over there, there's a Hidden Tribe!"
Scientist "Where? I can't see anything"
Nutcase "Of course not, it's hidden"I think Arnold Yasin meant "foreign nations", not literally hidden tribes ;D
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Peace "House M.D" and "OPF",
Thanx bro OPF and yes thats what he meant. By hidden tribes though i was referring to the elite(as pted out in bro Arnold's articles too) or priests/monks who were and still are very cut off from the main society hiding in their big castles and controlling the people from there through their money and wealth or dogmatic "spiritual" influence. And theres nothing esoterical about universal forces or rather "one in control" as that can refer to the forces of nature as well as the ones who have authority. GOD Bless! -
Yes, that absolutely is esoterical. If the Quran was meant to shake us out of superstitions, it surely would have been explicit, rather than use hords of terminology that makes people think of Angels and Jinns. And what about the Pharoh's dreams? Is there a scientific explanation for that to? I'd like to hear you explain it to Dawkins!
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Indeed, I apologise, I have not read brother Arnold's articles. But may I ask how would you answer the criticism that you're reading modern ideas into an anchient text? Even if the languge in the Quran can, when you try hard enough, be translated to exclude the supernatural, that is definately not he way it would have been understood in the Prophet's time, considering Arabs are culturally quite supersticious, and I mean that in the nicest possible way, being part Arab myself.
I agree.
I am ready to accept that the quran is full of allegories that have been misunderstood because of literal interpretations, but the quran certainly doesn't contain miraculous scientific knowledge.
I think we underestimate the people of the past, they probably had more knowledge than we think they did, and any information in the quran must have been known by people at the time, especially since that knowledge is being used to make a point. -
Peace "Mahmud",
Yes, that absolutely is esoterical. If the Quran was meant to shake us out of superstitions, it surely would have been explicit, rather than use hords of terminology that makes people think of Angels and Jinns. And what about the Pharoh's dreams? Is there a scientific explanation for that to? I'd like to hear you explain it to Dawkins!
JK- You mean the king al-aziz's dream in the story of Joseph. The Quran accurately doesnt call him pharaoh cause at that time the term pharaoh was non existent. Thats no one. 2ndly dreams do have a meaning, not in a paranormal sense, but in a psychological one. And also there are no universal interpretaions of a particular dream meaning we have to look at the person's background whos having the dream in order to get to know whats going on in his psyche. Furthermore there are ofcurse verses in the Quran which pertain to a phenomena which may not yet be known or was unknown at the time of revelation (eg 2130 big bang and every living thing being made from water). BUT thts nothing paranormal or supernatural. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Mahmud",
JK- You mean the king al-aziz's dream in the story of Joseph. The Quran accurately doesnt call him pharaoh cause at that time the term pharaoh was non existent. Thats no one. 2ndly dreams do have a meaning, not in a paranormal sense, but in a psychological one. And also there are no universal interpretaions of a particular dream meaning we have to look at the person's background whos having the dream in order to get to know whats going on in his psyche. Furthermore there are ofcurse verses in the Quran which pertain to a phenomena which may not yet be known or was unknown at the time of revelation (eg 2130 big bang and every living thing being made from water). BUT thts nothing paranormal or supernatural. GOD Bless!
But the dreams Joseph interpreted first predicted which inmate would be killed and which released, and secondly predicted a famine, seven years hence! I don't see how you can complain about alternative medicine at the same time as arguing that dream prediction is a sound scientific basis for long term economic planning.
There is a saying, that 'Magic' is simply a term for science that we don't yet understand. But that is not Dawkin's stance. Dawkins condemns all religions as being superstitious, and says we must reject any idea that is not verifiable in the Lab. I call this naieve becase it is not the way that many social sciences work, and is in ignorance of the writings of the Philosophers of Science Kuhn and Lakatos, who understand that what consititutes 'scientific method' is far more diverse and complex.
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Peace "Mahmud",
But the dreams Joseph interpreted first predicted which inmate would be killed and which released, and secondly predicted a famine, seven years hence! I don't see how you can complain about alternative medicine at the same time as arguing that dream prediction is a sound scientific basis for long term economic planning.
There is a saying, that 'Magic' is simply a term for science that we don't yet understand. But that is not Dawkin's stance. Dawkins condemns all religions as being superstitious, and says we must reject any idea that is not verifiable in the Lab. I call this naieve becase it is not the way that many social sciences work, and is in ignorance of the writings of the Philosophers of Science Kuhn and Lakatos, who understand that what consititutes 'scientific method' is far more diverse and complex.
JK- Ths is not true. So much of science IS INFERENCE and Dawkins surely knows this. The Quran has proven itself to be true consistently by comparison with the real world and by its not containing contradicitons neither it being falsified. However that doesnt make it supernatural. Just because we dont understand something yet does not make it supernatural. Now regarding the precidtions Joseph made from the dream i dont think there was any mention of when an inmate would killed. Regarding the economic issue this is very possible. It as happened many times that certain people felt that a war or a big uproar was about to happen soon and it did. This has nothing to do with the supernatural. It has to do with SUBTLE SUBCONSCIOUS PATTERN RECOGNITION from the surrounding events which if the brain is rational enough could sum up and make a rather accurate prediction out of it. A marvellous example studied by scientists is that of Zebras. They have the ability to recognize whether a lion wants to hunt them down just from his facial pattern WHILST HES STILL LYING DOWN, APPARENTLY CALM, IN THE FIELD. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Mahmud",
JK- Ths is not true. So much of science IS INFERENCE and Dawkins surely knows this. The Quran has proven itself to be true consistently by comparison with the real world and by its not containing contradicitons neither it being falsified. However that doesnt make it supernatural. Just because we dont understand something yet does not make it supernatural. Now regarding the precidtions Joseph made from the dream i dont think there was any mention of when an inmate would killed. Regarding the economic issue this is very possible. It as happened many times that certain people felt that a war or a big uproar was about to happen soon and it did. This has nothing to do with the supernatural. It has to do with SUBTLE SUBCONSCIOUS PATTERN RECOGNITION from the surrounding events which if the brain is rational enough could sum up and make a rather accurate prediction out of it. A marvellous example studied by scientists is that of Zebras. They have the ability to recognize whether a lion wants to hunt them down just from his facial pattern WHILST HES STILL LYING DOWN, APPARENTLY CALM, IN THE FIELD. GOD Bless!
I don't think you can compare judging an animals thoughts from its face with accurately predicting the climate over a period of 14 years.
But since you accept that things we don't understand yet are not supernatural, why don't you say the same about alternative medicine? It could be we just don't understand it. The same goes for everything. We just don't understand Angel's, and Jinn's, maybe their creatures living in another dimension. Maybe psychics read minds for a scientific reason. Why defend one set of unknowns as being legitimate science whilst condemning another set of unknowns as paranormal superstition?
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Peace "Mahmud",
I don't think you can compare judging an animals thoughts from its face with accurately predicting the climate over a period of 14 years.
But since you accept that things we don't understand yet are not supernatural, why don't you say the same about alternative medicine? It could be we just don't understand it. The same goes for everything. We just don't understand Angel's, and Jinn's, maybe their creatures living in another dimension. Maybe psychics read minds for a scientific reason. Why defend one set of unknowns as being legitimate science whilst condemning another set of unknowns as paranormal superstition?
JK- Reg alternative medicine it has been falsified in all cases ive seen. If you know of some that works under controlled conditions lease show me. Reg the meanings of jinn, malaaika etc we already have discovered the simplest understandings of these terms from dictionaries and Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest understanding is mostly the right one. It is possible that the DNA molecule was oroginally created by aliens(under the command of GOD) on another planet and then trnaferred here on earth through meteors BUT this is not the simplest understanding. So we first look for explanations here on earth and only if we can under controlled conditions positively exclude any possibility of the DNA assemobling itself here on earth(which has been done via RNA), then we can go on to something else. GOD Bless!
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Occam's Razor isn't a scientific principle but a philosophical one, and it isn't very meaningful. Nothing in this universe is simple, if you go down to the smallest possible scale, the atom is an immensely complex particle that can only be understood with pure mathematics, and an entirely new field of maths had to be invented to discuss it in the 1930s.
When you come to something like dreams predicting the future, there is no simple explanation. So all you are left with is a miraculous story that science cannot explain. I don't understand why you insist on saying that it cannot be "supernatural". It's not "natural" as defined by modern science. Hence "super" natural means beyond what science would predict.
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Peace "Mahmud",
Occam's Razor isn't a scientific principle but a philosophical one, and it isn't very meaningful. Nothing in this universe is simple, if you go down to the smallest possible scale, the atom is an immensely complex particle that can only be understood with pure mathematics, and an entirely new field of maths had to be invented to discuss it in the 1930s.
JK- Man now your misunderstanding the concept between simplicity and the simlest possible explanation. The simlest explanation itself can include many complex detils. Is RNA structure simple? Occam's Razor means that if you have many explanations for something then the one which is more down to earth and in that sense simple is more likely to be the correct one and this has consistently shown to be the case. Yes there maybe extra ordinary claims which come true BUT THOSE REQUIRE EXTRA ORDINARY EVIDENCE TOO. Take the Diana conspiracy for example. Did the UK royalty conspire to get her killed or was it the driver's mistake. Occam's Razor supports the latter and so it is more likely. Ofcourse this doesnt mean that the former cant be true. It can but qould require a lot more evidence to be justified than the former would.
When you come to something like dreams predicting the future, there is no simple explanation. So all you are left with is a miraculous story that science cannot explain. I don't understand why you insist on saying that it cannot be "supernatural". It's not "natural" as defined by modern science. Hence "super" natural means beyond what science would predict.
JK- Again there can be many explanations of dreams, each having their own associated details, and one of them is the simplest explanation which is most liekly gonna be the correct one unless any of the others are supported by a relatively heavier amount of evidence. GOD Bless!
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I disagree. If you have no evidence to support A or B as explanations, and A is simple whilst B is complex, you have no reason to believe either. Simplicity in itself is an artificial concept. When a situation looks simple, that is always because you lack information. Aren't you familiar with the concept of fractals?