BIG BIG BIG BIG SINFUL ACT!
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There is ZERO quranic basis for homosexuality.
Can you be a homosexual and believe in god? YES.
Can you be a homosexual and follow the quran? NO. (see Lot's story)
Hence, can you be a homosexual and be in a state of islam as described by the quran? NO. -
Peace to all,
LObster, i think if you look at the actual anatomy and functioning of a man and womans reproductive organs you will see how they are created to tperfectly complement each other, they are in fact made to work together and to produce and create new life, this is what God intended and he built it into his design, gay sex on the other hand accomplishes nothing and achieves nothing but sexual pleasure, and is just as unnatural as if a guy wanted to stick it in another guys nose for pleasure, just because its possible and he may deprieve pleasure does that mean its ok.
Man were getting rather perverse here just to prove a point, maybe we should stick to more appropriate topics.
Kurt
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peace peace
Kurt, Joe, OPF,
Why is something unnatural wrong? You are assuming that just because something is unnatural, it is wrong. That's not true.
I fail to see how something can be wrong if it does not have any negative impact on anyone.Also, we can use our body parts for unintended purposes. The purpose of our hands is to hold things, so does that make clapping wrong? The purpose of our eyes is to see, does that make winking wrong?
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peace peace
Kurt, Joe, OPF,
Why is something unnatural wrong? You are assuming that just because something is unnatural, it is wrong. That's not true.
I fail to see how something can be wrong if it does not have any negative impact on anyone.Also, we can use our body parts for unintended purposes. The purpose of our hands is to hold things, so does that make clapping wrong? The purpose of our eyes is to see, does that make winking wrong?
Where did I say "unnatural = wrong"? But anal sex, to be explicity - it most definitely is unnatural. I know homosexuality goes on in certain animal kingdoms and there is a class of monkeys that are homosexual - but they also commit incest and other things.
The purpose of your hands - they don't have a singular defined purpose. You can do a lot with hands, that's why we have them ;D The purpose of our eyes is to see - and that's all we do with them. The purpose of the eyelids? Communication, keeping the eye lubricated, keeping it pretected. So no, winking is not unnatural, it serves a purpose which may or may not be constructive (ex. vietnam soldier that blinked out "TORTURE" in morse code on live TV).
On the other hand, the purpose of the penis, just like the eye, is quite explicit. You don't go around sticking it into chickens, you don't go around sticking it into trees, etc, etc.
Isolated homosexuality - that's not "wrong". It can't be wrong because it doesn't affect anyone but the two that wish to waste away in isolation and they have full right to do that. The problem, as seen in Lot's story, is rampant homosexuality, which goes hand in hand with rampant promiscuity. Which IS wrong. AIDS used to be called GRIDS. What does G stand for there?
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Peace Lobster
The purpose of our hands is to hold things, so does that make clapping wrong? The purpose of our eyes is to see, does that make winking wrong?
The purpose of our hands is for more than the manipulation of objects. It is very helpful as a means of expression and communication. Winking is another form of communication and is helpful as well in the faciliation of communication . Otherwise I'd ask some questions like you, that is, if the purpose of ours eyes are to see why do they close when we sleep and not look out for danger? The quran makes it clear that we authenticate its truth through real life experience. Go out and live your life and weigh its positions. Apparently you find them false and that is fine.
Joe
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Zing! That's promiscuity.
Your excuse for homosexuality is as follows "I pay taxes". Well, so do I. That doesn't entitle me to go shag a cow. (here, is an analogy, and no, we are not talking about the finer details of shagging cows, such as consent)
Where is your proof that "heterosexuals have more kids than they can afford AND expect homosexuals to pay for it"? Chances are, the people having more kids than they can afford a.) pay for it themselves and get in debt or b.) leech of the state and get paid by everyone, no discrimination involved or c.) die off from starvation.
You can keep jamming as many strawman arguments as you like, it won't change a thing.
Interesting how you're not intellectually honest enough to quote the source
http//www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1704818
Also, nice to see you quote a study from 28 years ago - surprisingly, a lot of things have changed in the GLBT community.
For a person who claims he doesn't hate homosexuals you sure do a lot of really crummy research.
Are you by chance related to the well known falsifier of facts Paul Drummond Cameron?
Oh, and btw, sex is for more than just procreation. I'd hate to be married to you if sex was only used for procreation.
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Peace
Sex is the primary means for procreation. When a man is stimulated, behold, he ejaculates his seed, for what purpose, to procreate. The penis has two basic jobs, to release bodily fluids and to release semen. I'm sure gay men ejaculate as well. Well why? Their original purpose was to impregnate females, now they're putting the semen to no use, or perhaps maybe to some use in a kinky sort of way, but that's another story.
Joe
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Peace
Sex is the primary means for procreation. When a man is stimulated, behold, he ejaculates his seed, for what purpose, to procreate. The penis has two basic jobs, to release bodily fluids and to release semen. I'm sure gay men ejaculate as well. Well why? Their original purpose was to impregnate females, now they're putting the semen to no use, or perhaps maybe to some use in a kinky sort of way, but that's another story.
Joe
And again, I assume you only have sex for procreation, because by going by your benchmark, anything other than sex for procreation, and if you use anything which prohibits the possible of impregnation, it is haraam.
Again, are you saying here that you (assuming you're married) only have sex for procreation - the idea of using it to express love at the most intimate level through sexual intercourse has nothing to do with the purpose of sex?
If that is your view, then you have a very shallow view on life - a very shallow one indeed.
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Peace
Your problem is your one-sided view. You are right, sex has more than one purpose, but it does have these 2 purposes and homosexuals can only engage in one part of this union with a barrier to accomplishing the other. You can say I'm dull all you want, but I'm not saying sex is only for procreation. It is like a 2 pronged tool, a tool which homosexuals cannot wield because as I believe, such sexual unions are a caricature.
Joe
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Peace Kaiwai
You have not answered how you condone the practice of homosexuality in the context of the quran. I asked what type of union marriage is in the quran, can you speak on that?
Joe
A union is not needed because of the context of the Quran, the idea of a marriage is the provide a stable home for the event of pregnancy and to protect the progeny of the family. The fact that I can never get pregnant makes it a non issue. Marriage is an institution for procreation, plain and simple. Look a the Quran in context to Arabia prior to the revelation and you'll see why marriage was a must in the context of heterosexual sex. Alot of Quran readers refuse to learn that history.
Edit The first two chapters of "The Life of Muhammad" by Muhammad Haykal talks about Arabia at that time.
As for homosexuals within the context of the Quran, we shouldn't be promiscuous. In my case, my ideal is to settle down with a partner, and stay together till we're old, grey and die of old age. I don't consider that evil, depraved or bad. You think I should settle down with a female whom I will never have sex with? I'll end up having a dysfunctional relationship with?
As for SkyIron; nice to see you quote research, all of it based on PERSONAL LIFESTYLE CHOICE. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HOMOSEXUALITY. If a person chooses to be promiscuous, that is a choice they made in their own right, no one else's. I choose not to be promiscuous, and I am gay - so how do you match that up with your twisted version of reality?
Regarding the mental health issues; again, it never addresses cause and affect. There are a large number of painters and artists of various backgrounds who have mental illness of one form or another, does that mean that art causes mental illness? of course not! stop being so bloody absurd you would say. I say that your attempt to link homosexuality with mental illness is just as absurd.
Oh, and all the 'diseases' can all be avoided through using a condom and not being promiscuous - again LIFESTYLE CHOICES.
As for the life expectancy, using 20 year old statistics! how desperate are they? first you guys using a study from 28 years ago, and now one from 20 years ago! good gracious! Heck, even gay men in New Zealand will tell you that my generation have become safe sex fundamentalists and demanding that monogamous actually means a one on one. long term committed relationship. So even gays of the old school admit things have changed in 20 years! Heck studies in New Zealand show that safe sex in the 20 category within the gay community is HIGHER than in the heterosexual community!
So I can't work out where you get your facts from or where the so-called Catholic Education did.
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Interesting how you're not intellectually honest enough to quote the source
http//www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1704818
Also, nice to see you quote a study from 28 years ago - surprisingly, a lot of things have changed in the GLBT community.
For a person who claims he doesn't hate homosexuals you sure do a lot of really crummy research.
Are you by chance related to the well known falsifier of facts Paul Drummond Cameron?
Oh, and btw, sex is for more than just procreation. I'd hate to be married to you if sex was only used for procreation.
Yeah, I would have thought Google would be good enough. Apparently not. Would the LGBT community have changed since then? I have no idea, there are better things to spend time following up on. Lobster asked about how harm can arise from homosexuality - there it is.
And again - you can keep on using your emotional appeals and your strawman arguments - your position is indefensible from a quranic point of view.
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Yeah, I would have thought Google would be good enough. Apparently not. Would the LGBT community have changed since then? I have no idea, there are better things to spend time following up on. Lobster asked about how harm can arise from homosexuality - there it is.
Now, it demonstrates what promiscurity can do, nothing to do with homosexuality.
And again - you can keep on using your emotional appeals and your strawman arguments - your position is indefensible from a quranic point of view.
Oh yes, back to the 'indefensible. I offered a 'we have different opinions' and to drop the issue but you couldn't shut your trap. It really goes to show that when it comes to debating, you go back in a circle instead of following up what I said. Again, none of what you have provided shows any cause and effect between homosexuality and bad outcomes. You've demonstrated gays who make stupid choices, just like I could point out heterosexuals making stupid decisions, but you have failed that one causes the other - that homosexuality as a sexuality by itself causes promiscuity which then causes everything else.
You also failed to demonstrate that Lot talks about homosexuality when you fail to look at the history of the said place; again, you fail to do your homework. Keep ignorant, keep stupid, and keep regurgitating crap which makes little or no sense.
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Now, it demonstrates what promiscurity can do, nothing to do with homosexuality.
Oh yes, back to the 'indefensible. I offered a 'we have different opinions' and to drop the issue but you couldn't shut your trap. It really goes to show that when it comes to debating, you go back in a circle instead of following up what I said. Again, none of what you have provided shows any cause and effect between homosexuality and bad outcomes. You've demonstrated gays who make stupid choices, just like I could point out heterosexuals making stupid decisions, but you have failed that one causes the other - that homosexuality as a sexuality by itself causes promiscuity.
The study explicity compared homosexuals to heterosexuals. 30 years ago or whenever, homosexuals had a much higher chance of being infested with parasites - simple as that. If that isn't harm...
Oh yes, back to the 'indefensible. I offered a 'we have different opinions' and to drop the issue but you couldn't shut your trap. It really goes to show that when it comes to debating, you go back in a circle instead of following up what I said. Again, none of what you have provided shows any cause and effect between homosexuality and bad outcomes. You've demonstrated gays who make stupid choices, just like I could point out heterosexuals making stupid decisions, but you have failed that one causes the other - that homosexuality as a sexuality by itself causes promiscuity.
Can you justify your homosexuality FROM THE QURAN? I don't want arguments from emotion, thank you very much, and you can keep blabbering on and on - until you justify that homosexuality is valid from THE QURAN, IN A QURAN STUDY FORUM, then you can talk.
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Peace Kaiwai
Look a the Quran in context to Arabia prior to the revelation and you'll see why marriage was a must in the context of heterosexual sex. Alot of Quran readers refuse to learn that history
If this is the case explain to me why fornication and adultery are forbidden if marriage is an institution for procreation and homosexuality is not forbidden.
we shouldn't be promiscuous
I agree, but fornication is forbidden.
You think I should settle down with a female whom I will never have sex with?
I think you can do what you want, but do not link it with the system of God provided for mankind's guidance in the quran, unless you can resolve all the contradictions I see to your argument. If you choose to be with someone of the same sex than you are not following the quran. If you believe you are, then you believe in some and reject another. Take note of the directions those who inherit the book take . You might fall between those who wrong themselves or those who partly uphold it because homosexuality is not condoned in the quran as far as I'm concerned.
Alot of Quran readers refuse to learn that history.
History is definately important and one is often reminded to heed it in the quran. Truth is timeless.
Joe