Was the Qur'an the Only Revelation That The Prophet Received From Allah

unknownuser

Many Greetings Brother,

1760 - When We said to you Indeed, your Lord encompasses all people. We did not make the vision which We showed to you, and the tree cursed in the Koran except to be a trial for people, and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence.

What was the vision showed ? Can you explain ?
I can explain with the help of Hadis.

5328 - That is all they have of knowledge. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His Path, and those who are guided

Best of greetings brother and thanks for the reply,

The events are explained in Surah 48 (see 620 minute, verse 4827).

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0_jBFJgYOg

(
Inna shajarata alzzaqqoomi
4443 That truly the deadly food's tree.

Is the Zaqqum tree physical or parable like below?

A Poison Tree by William Blake

I was angry with my friend
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

And I water'd it in fears,
Night & morning with my tears;
And I sunned it with smiles,
And with soft deceitful wiles.

And it grew both day and night,
Till it bore an apple bright;
And my foe beheld it shine,
And he knew that it was mine,

And into my garden stole
When the night had veil'd the pole
In the morning glad I see
My foe outstretch'd beneath the tree.

Peace

Albruni

Peace "albruni",

JK- I already explained this in my other posts quoting from the Quran that the Prophet was not allowed to explain the Quran on his own.

Yes,Quran was not explained by prophet on his own,Quran says Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19) Allah Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet to explain the verses of the Holy Quran to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Quran itself. It is not the Holy Quran. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Therefore, it should necessarily be in some other form, distinct from the words of the Holy Book. And this is exactly what is meant by the "unrecited revelation." But the two kinds of revelation, though different in their form, are both revealed to the Holy Prophet; both are from Allah; and both are to be believed and obeyed by the Muslims.

JK- Here i made it clear that it makes absolutely no sense for GOD to want scholars to start fishing for sahih hadith in between inconsistencies whilst He has already revealed a perfect and preserved Scripture. Like the Quran contains a phrase "and they ask you(Muhammad) concerning menses. SAY....". If GOD wated that the Prophet say teach salat/prayer a similar thing wouldve been mentioned in the Quran "and they ask you concerning salat. SAY....".

God is in all his sense ,it's we who denies to understand.Concider this verse "Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before Allah in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of Allah in the way He taught you. (2238-239)"
Can you tell me what is the way to perform prayer when we are in peace ?It means that Allah has taught the way of prayer to the Holy Prophet through some "unrecited revelation" not contained in the Holy Quran, and the Holy Prophet taught it to the Muslims. Thus, the Muslims have been taught by Allah through the teaching of the Holy Prophet. However, the teaching of the Holy Prophet is described in the holy verse as the teaching of Allah, because it was based on the "unrecited revelation."

JK- Follow GOD and the messenger is referring to the Quran ONLY in our time since there is no other way to follow what the messenger said except by upholding the Quran. The statements what the messenger was supposed to say ARE ALSO IN THE QURAN preceded mostly by a "qul" as ive givevn an example above. We dont have to go looking for external hadith which have so much inconsitencies. MOREVER the Quan itself is a messenger and here's the verse which shows this
GOD has prepared for them severe retribution. Therefore, you shall reverence GOD, O you who possess intelligence and believed. GOD has sent down to you a message -*
a messenger* who recites to you GOD's revelations, clearly, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will admit him into gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. GOD will generously reward him.
*6510-11 The ``Messenger'' here is clearly the Quran. Verse 10 talks about "sending down a message,'' and this points to the Quran as the messenger in 6511
This is also logical because the physical messegers die one day but the Message is left over.
JK- No they are not sent to explain anything on their own as ive shown here clearly. The reasons are obviously because a messenger on his own is like the people of his time and does not know what discoveries would be amde in the future and how people would adopt. It is not the duty of the messenger to change peoples culture. Only the universal laws which GOD reveals though Him as a reminder from Him is what counts. GOD Bless!

In 592 it says "Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."
In 6412 it says "And obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the Message clearly."

The Prophet not only has to deliver the message but he has to deliver it clearly. The Arabs can understand the Quran as it's in there own language but still it's been said to convey clearly because obviously the Prophet had to explain it to them and elaborate it to the people just as the next two verses indicate...

1644 - "(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought."
1664 ? "And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe."

These verses show that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent to explain the Quran. It doesn't just mean to proclaim. To proclaim is to 'baligh' like in 567. Here the word is "litubayyina", which means to explain just like how it is used in verse 144 "We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now God leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is exalted in power, full of Wisdom."

if the only duty of the prophet is to deliver the quran then why all the apostle sent in the language of his own people.
God sent messangers in Human form rather angels which the disbeliever prefers because they can be taken as model.
God sent more than one messenger to a community because they can explain clearly.

I agree that there are verses which say that the only duty of the messenger is to deliver the message "The messenger is obliged only to convey (the message)"(599, see also 320, 592, 1340, 1635, 82, 2454, 2918, 3617, 4248, 6412). However, does not say that conveying (the message) is simply reciting the Qur'an. The context shows the meaning to be that the Prophet is not responsible for the belief or unbelief of the people or for their obedience or disobedience to the message. His obligation is to simply convey the message.

The basic question underlying this issue has already been answered in detail; and that is the question of the nature of this authority. It has been established through a number of arguments that the obedience of the Holy Prophet was not enjoined upon the Muslims in his capacity of a ruler. It has been enjoined in his capacity of a prophet. Had it been the authority of a ruler only which the Holy Prophet exercised, it would logically be inferred that the authority is tied up with his rule, and as soon as his administrative rule is over, his authority simultaneously ceases to have effect.

But if the authority is a "Prophetic" authority, and not merely a "ruling authority," then it is obvious that it shall continue with the continuance of the prophethood, and shall not disappear until the Holy Prophet no longer remains a prophet.

Now, the only question is whether the Holy Prophet was a prophet of a particular nation or a particular time, or his prophethood extended to the whole mankind for all times. Let us seek the answer from the Holy Quran itself. The Holy Quran says

Say O mankind! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all. (715
And We did not send you (O Prophet) except to the entire mankind, bearing good news and warning. (342
And We did not send you save as a mercy unto all the worlds. (21107)
Blessed be He Who has sent down the Quran on His servant so that he may be a warner to all the worlds. (251)
And We have sent you (O Prophet) for mankind as a messenger. And Allah suffices to be a witness. (479)
And the whole mankind is addressed when it is said
O mankind! The Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe it is better for you. And if you disbelieve, to Allah belongs what is in the heavens and in the earth. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (4170)

The first five verses need no elaboration. They are self-explanatory on the point that the Holy Prophet was sent to the whole mankind and not to a particular people; his prophethood was not limited either in time or in place.

The fifth verse addresses the whole mankind and enjoins upon all of them to believe in the Holy Prophet. Nobody can say that the belief of the Holy Prophet was restricted to his own time. It is, according to this verse, incumbent upon all the peoples, of whatever age, to believe in his Prophethood.

May god guide us to the straight path

Albruni

Best of greetings brother and thanks for the reply,

The events are explained in Surah 48 (see 620 minute, verse 4827).

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0_jBFJgYOg

(
Inna shajarata alzzaqqoomi
4443 That truly the deadly food's tree.

Is the Zaqqum tree physical or parable like below?

Salam Brother,

I asked about the vison not about the tree

Salam,
A.Albruni

Albruni

Salam Albruni

Thats what i thought to when i first found Quran through God alone. Those kind of hadiths are not few brother. Those kind of hadiths are actually in the Authentic/Sahih hadith books. And there are 100's of sahih/authentic hadiths that contradicts Quranic verses, Science, Reason and History.

People here on free-minds don't accept anything unless they have done a research on it, and gathered knowledge about it, and verified it.

The history of Hadith
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/SP/1996/nov/page1.html

20 Hadiths that contradict/violate the Quranic verses
http//www.submission.org/corruption.html

Critism of hadith has exitisted since the beginning
http//www.free-minds.org/books/kassim8.htm

Above are some interesting articles. Read the articles above and if you have any question, i will answear them for you brother.

I Respect you for keeping an open mind and having the courage to discuss this topic constructively in this forum. Remember that you should verify everything you read, adn not accept anything unless it is accepted through science, history, reason, etc...

Peace and Respect
David

Salam David,

Well David even if we find only one we should follow it , i personly know 50 sahih hadith which will not contridit with science, history, reason, etc...
Can you accept those ? Is it the matter of authenticity or anything else.I stronly dought the research of free-minders as they are free of minds.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Salam,
A.Albruni

Albruni

Please answer Wakas's point (1854). What example does the Quran not cite?

Salam Brother,

I am not to find defect in Quran....Nor anybody can. My point is both Quran and Hadith are revelation from Allaha and we have to follow.

And We have sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the dhikr that you may explain to humankind what has been sent down unto them that haply they may reflect (1644)

He it is Who has raised among the unlettered ones a messenger from among them who recites unto them his signs and purifies them (and /or helps them grow), and teaches them the book and wisdom, although before they were in manifest error (622). (See also 2231 and 4113, where it is said the Prophet teaches the book and wisdom).

Now about the verse which says "And We have sent down unto you (O Prophet) the book explaining (tibyanan) everything and as a guidance, and mercy, and glad tidings for those who have surrendered (to God) (1689)".

we should not abandon the use of aql (reason) and fikr (reflection) in interpreting any verse, since the Qur'an itself tells us to use these. Now aql and fikr immediately tell us that we cannot take this verse in an absolute sense. For we would then have to take "everything" literally. But that is obviously impossible, since there are clearly things that the Qur'an does not explain; for example, the rules of Chinese grammar or the way to fix your computer. Thus common sense requires that we qualify "everything" as something like "everything that is relevant to religion, spirituality, and morality". Reason further requires us to bring another element in the understanding of this verse and that is that many statements in a text have a context both within the text as a whole and in the circumstances in which the statements were made. This is why we find it easier to understand books written in our own time and in the society in which we live than those written in a different time and place in the former case we know not only the context within the books themselves but also the context provided by external circumstances; whereas in the latter case we know the context within the books but we have much less knowledge of the external context. Now the Qur'an no doubt rises as far above its context as it is possible for a book written in a human language to do, but still it has both types of contexts. Hence the Qur'an explains everything only when its verses are interpreted by taking into account both the context within the book as a whole as well as the context of circumstances, practices, and events that are assumed in those statements. Now this latter context is provided partly by the Hadith.

"And We have indeed coined for humanity every kind of similitude (mathal) in this Qur'an that they may reflect (3927; see also 1789, 1854, 305".

Again, this statement should be understood in the same way as the statement that the Qur'an explains everything.

if it were just a matter of delivering a book, God could have used other ways to achieve this. The book could have fallen from heaven or an angel could have brought it to the people. Or, the Qur'an could have been miraculously written down on tablets of stone or tablets of gold and then carried by someone to the people (as said to be the case with the ten commandments and the Book of Mormons). The unbelievers actually raised such possibilities

The people of the book ask you that you cause a book to descend from heaven ... (4153)

Had we sent down to you writing upon parchment so that they could feel it with their hands, the unbelievers would have said, This is nothing but mere magic. They say, Why has an angel not been sent down unto him? ... (68-9, see also1794-95)

But God did not follow any such mechanical method. Instead he revealed the Qur'an through the heart of the messenger, stressing that a messenger sent to human beings has to be a human being (297, 26194, 4224). Clearly, then it was not simply a question of delivering a book but the human heart and the person of the messenger also plays an important part in the process of delivery.

Salam,
A.Albruni

unknownuser

I asked about the vison not about the tree

Salam,

Then read/listen, events and vision are explained in Surah 48 (see 620 minute, verse 4827).

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0_jBFJgYOg

Peace

Hati

Salaam Albruni,

.... i personly know 50 sahih hadith which will not contridit with science, history, reason, etc...
Can you accept those ? ....

Considering the voluminous hadith books and the time spent to cull all of them, I am interested in the 50 Sahih Hadiths you mentioned. I appreciate if you could share us the Ref. Nos.

Hati

Albruni

Salaam Albruni,

Considering the voluminous hadith books and the time spent to cull all of them, I am interested in the 50 Sahih Hadiths you mentioned. I appreciate if you could share us the Ref. Nos.

Hati

Salam Hati,

Verly giving no will of no use......... I will give with text so you may follow..to start with ?"O Allah, truly I have wronged myself and none can forgive sins except you." ?The full text of this du'a can be found in Sahih Bukhari (vol.1 p.442 no.776), Sahih Muslim (vol.4 pp.1419-20 no.6533),

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

Hati

Salaam Albruni,

Thanks for the reference. God bless you.

Hati

Amin74

I posted an argument about this from a slightly different perspective. Check it out here. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16485.0

kaiwai

Salam Brother,

Ok leave the flaws , will you follow the minor hadiths which are right at least.you might say no because you want to follow the numbers to understand the quran.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

Although thought I have an extensive Hadith collection I tend to use them rarely because I would prefer being 100% Quran rather than going off resorting to books with errors and haven't been approved by God.

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Many Greetings Brother,

1760 - When We said to you Indeed, your Lord encompasses all people. We did not make the vision which We showed to you, and the tree cursed in the Koran except to be a trial for people, and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence.

What was the vision showed ? Can you explain ?
I can explain with the help of Hadis.

5328 - That is all they have of knowledge. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His Path, and those who are guided

JK- Hadith is a biased source and doesnt tell us anything. You might come up with a story reg 1760 from hadith BUT will it be accurate? No it wont. We would need independent atcheological evidence to verify what this Qurnaic verse meant. This is the case with many verses in the Quran. Regarding "litubayyina" many sectarians have misinterpretd this word. People who establish Hadith and Sunna as another source of religious teachings besides the Quran, opted the irrelevant meaning of the Arabic word "BYN". The word "'lituBaYyeNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means 1) To reveal what is concealed. 2) To explain what is vague. The first meaning is the antonym of "hide(katama)", the second is the antonym of "make vague". God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers (1635). Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337, 2025). If the Quran is a profound Arabic book, if it is explained by God, and if it is simple to understand (515; 26195; 111; 5417; 551-2), then the prophet does not have an extra mission to explain it. Furthermore, the verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation. Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it(la taktumoonahu)." Ill see through the rest when i have time but i beleive much of it has already ben answered. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

The chain of narration must be unbroken. In other words, each source must have received the hadith directly from the one whose authority he is relating it all the way back to the Prophet peace be upon him. If there is any missing authority, the chain would be considered broken and unacceptable.
Every narrator in the chain must be of acceptable righteousness and character; in other words, each narrator must be morally fit. Impious people are not accepted, for their impiety is a sign that they don?t fear Allah and, hence, they can?t be trusted to take extreme care in narrating the statements of the Prophet peace be upon him. If just one narrator in the chain does not meet these criteria the hadith will have to be rejected.
Moral characteristics are not sufficient. Each narrator must be proficient and exact when it comes to narrating hadith. If a person is known to make lots of mistakes when narrating hadith either from his memory or from his writing, his hadith will not be acceptable.
Both the chain and the text of the hadith must be such that they don?t contradict what has been narrated through stronger means.
Upon inspection of the different ways a hadith is narrated, it must be the case that no mistake or defect is spotted in either the chain or the text of the hadith
Should not contradict with Quran

JK- Well this is exactly the problem. How do you know the narrators were honest? How do you know the chain is unbroken? You never met them in person and you have no archeological evidence to back any of this up. All you have is writings here and there. How is any of that trustworthy? They are mostly if not all biased sources. GOD Bless!

kaiwai

Peace "albruni",
JK- Well this is exactly the problem. How do you know the narrators were honest? How do you know the chain is unbroken? You never met them in person and you have no archeological evidence to back any of this up. All you have is writings here and there. How is any of that trustworthy? They are mostly if not all biased sources. GOD Bless!

That reminds me of the 'music' argument - whether it is allowed or not.

A large part of their 'hated of music' is invoked off hadith or poorly contextualised Quranic quotation.

I think the best course of action would be to accept that the study of the Quran is still a work in progress; as long as we accept this 'work in progress' hopefully things won't get set in stone only to find that in years to come, proven wrong.

jonny_k

Peace "albruni" and all hadith followers,
I think those who follow hadith besides Quran dont understand one basic issue. We at free-minds dont give a damn about chain of narration. CHAIN OF NARRATION, TRUST OF THE PEOPLE OR THEM BEING RIGHTEOUS IN HISTORY HAS NEVER BEEN THE CRITERIA FOR US TO ACCEPT THE QURAN IS THE TRUE WORD OF GOD. We accept the Quran as the true Od of GOD because the rationality it contains, the scientific foreknowledge it contains, it's statements being in agreement with the real world, the mathematical strcuture(which IMO and those of many other bros is the most important criteria also defining the boundaries of the Quran inside the written mushaf", the lack of contradictions and also to this day no statement of the Quran has been falsified by science. So this trust a righteous person and chain of narration is your deal, NOT OURS and it is of no use. I still remember when I was young i was bombarded with statements like the Prophet Muhammad was always the most honest, never lied, always returned all the property entrusted to him even to the Kufaar etc. I personally say now that i dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not. But lets say he was. Dont you know that some people are so smart they can tell the truth a number of times to make them look honest and then lie in certain regards to gain their own benefit? Ofcourse this can happen. Others might claim the Prophet was just delusion. The only way to be sure is to have the proofs i mentioned above. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Please ready my quote onceagain , Moreover in the last sentence, All?h Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet to explain the verses of the Holy Qur'?n to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Qur'?n itself. It is not the Holy Qur'?n. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Therefore, it should necessarily be in some other form, distinct from the words of the Holy Book. And this is exactly what is meant by the "unrecited revelation." But the two kinds of revelation, though different in their form, are both revealed to the Holy Prophet; both are from All?h; and both are to be believed and obeyed by the Muslims.

JK- The separate revelation or rather insiration as i said was for him and for his time only. Theres no way we can proof what that is right now and should GOD have wanted us to follow that He would have included that in the Quran. And it has defintely nothing to do with explanining the Quran. The Quran EXPLAINS ITSELF and this is evident from the many verses which repeat the same evident but adding more details.

once again please read"If he says something or does something, which is not in complete consonance with Allah?s pleasure, he is always warned about it. In a number of verses, the Holy Qur?an has expressed Allah?s disapproval of some acts done or intended by the Holy Prophet. Thus, no act of the Holy Prophet has ever gone unchecked."

JK- Ok tell me what about the stoning verse for married adulterers which according to the hadith was EATEN BY A GOAT. Aint this a sick joke of the scholars accepting this? They claim that GOD is able to abrogate His verses by a goat even. So now we ask if that verse is supposed to be abrgated, why do Muslims still follow and practive it? Theyr clearly contradicting themselves here on this issue.
Also the Quran mentions "la ilaaha ilallah" four/five times BUT nowhere in connection with "muhammadur rasoolullah" even in the very sura named Muhammad verse 19. This is considered the most important pillar in Islam and yet it is not stated in the Quran. I challenge you to show me the shahaadah ads you Muslims recite it in the Quran. IMO that even contradicts the Quran because it clearly states to make NO DISTINCTION between the messengers and by repeatedly mentioning his name along with GOD's to the exclusion of all others your doing just that. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni"

Yes,Quran was not explained by prophet on his own,Quran says Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19) Allah Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet to explain the verses of the Holy Quran to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Quran itself. It is not the Holy Quran. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Therefore, it should necessarily be in some other form, distinct from the words of the Holy Book. And this is exactly what is meant by the "unrecited revelation." But the two kinds of revelation, though different in their form, are both revealed to the Holy Prophet; both are from Allah; and both are to be believed and obeyed by the Muslims.

JK- I believe i explained this in the other post that the Quran is self explanatory and only the Quran has scientific evidence of being accurate and consistent.

God is in all his sense ,it's we who denies to understand.Concider this verse "Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before Allah in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of Allah in the way He taught you. (2238-239)"
Can you tell me what is the way to perform prayer when we are in peace ?It means that Allah has taught the way of prayer to the Holy Prophet through some "unrecited revelation" not contained in the Holy Quran, and the Holy Prophet taught it to the Muslims. Thus, the Muslims have been taught by Allah through the teaching of the Holy Prophet. However, the teaching of the Holy Prophet is described in the holy verse as the teaching of Allah, because it was based on the "unrecited revelation."

JK- It is nonsense to claim that GOD taught some explicit ritualistic prayer to the Prophet outside the Quran. What is meant here is ACCORDING TO THE NATURE OF HUMANS. When wer using our hearts and minds to focus on GOD it is He Who is etaching us and in peace times wed naturally prolong our prayers and in times of war and uproar wed shorten them. Also our underatdning of prayer continuously evolves and so GOD is continuously teaching us what we never knew. Many articles have been written on salat at this forum. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13270.0

In 592 it says "Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."
In 6412 it says "And obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the Message clearly."

The Prophet not only has to deliver the message but he has to deliver it clearly. The Arabs can understand the Quran as it's in there own language but still it's been said to convey clearly because obviously the Prophet had to explain it to them and elaborate it to the people just as the next two verses indicate...

1644 - "(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought."
1664 ? "And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe."

These verses show that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent to explain the Quran. It doesn't just mean to proclaim. To proclaim is to 'baligh' like in 567. Here the word is "litubayyina", which means to explain just like how it is used in verse 144 "We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now God leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is exalted in power, full of Wisdom."

JK- I explained the term BYN in one of my posts above already. Please refer to that. Regarding obedience to GOD and His messenger ive already shown that after the death of the physical messenger the Quran itself becomes the messenger.

if the only duty of the prophet is to deliver the quran then why all the apostle sent in the language of his own people.
God sent messangers in Human form rather angels which the disbeliever prefers because they can be taken as model.
God sent more than one messenger to a community because they can explain clearly.

JK- GOD's sends messengers in the language of the people so that they can understand the message, obviously. And no GOD did not send send humans as messengers to be taken as a model. The reason IMO as to why he sends human messengers is to test whether the people would beleive in Him even if Hed send a human just like themselves or not. Malaaika or the universal forces of GOD are not send down because then the TEST WOULD BE OVER as is evident from this verse
We do not send down the malaaikah except for specific functions. Otherwise, no one will be respited.
GOD could also make everyone beleive instantly if He wanted as stated in another verse of the Quran. So this nothing but a test.

I agree that there are verses which say that the only duty of the messenger is to deliver the message "The messenger is obliged only to convey (the message)"(599, see also 320, 592, 1340, 1635, 82, 2454, 2918, 3617, 4248, 6412). However, does not say that conveying (the message) is simply reciting the Qur'an. The context shows the meaning to be that the Prophet is not responsible for the belief or unbelief of the people or for their obedience or disobedience to the message. His obligation is to simply convey the message.

JK- Thats rigt convey and not explain by Himself as GOD Himself would explain it through the messenger as well.

The basic question underlying this issue has already been answered in detail; and that is the question of the nature of this authority. It has been established through a number of arguments that the obedience of the Holy Prophet was not enjoined upon the Muslims in his capacity of a ruler. It has been enjoined in his capacity of a prophet. Had it been the authority of a ruler only which the Holy Prophet exercised, it would logically be inferred that the authority is tied up with his rule, and as soon as his administrative rule is over, his authority simultaneously ceases to have effect.

JK- And this is exacly my point. How do we know what Muhammad the man enjoined as a messenger except of what is in Quran? Ive already explained why chain of narration and trust is nonsense.

But if the authority is a "Prophetic" authority, and not merely a "ruling authority," then it is obvious that it shall continue with the continuance of the prophethood, and shall not disappear until the Holy Prophet no longer remains a prophet.

JK- Hes not a prophet or a messenger right now since he passed away. All that is left again is the Quran as the authentic teachings coming through the once living messenger Muhammad.

Now, the only question is whether the Holy Prophet was a prophet of a particular nation or a particular time, or his prophethood extended to the whole mankind for all times. Let us seek the answer from the Holy Quran itself. The Holy Quran says

Say O mankind! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all. (715
And We did not send you (O Prophet) except to the entire mankind, bearing good news and warning. (342
And We did not send you save as a mercy unto all the worlds. (21107)
Blessed be He Who has sent down the Quran on His servant so that he may be a warner to all the worlds. (251)
And We have sent you (O Prophet) for mankind as a messenger. And Allah suffices to be a witness. (479)
And the whole mankind is addressed when it is said
O mankind! The Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe it is better for you. And if you disbelieve, to Allah belongs what is in the heavens and in the earth. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (4170)

The first five verses need no elaboration. They are self-explanatory on the point that the Holy Prophet was sent to the whole mankind and not to a particular people; his prophethood was not limited either in time or in place.

The fifth verse addresses the whole mankind and enjoins upon all of them to believe in the Holy Prophet. Nobody can say that the belief of the Holy Prophet was restricted to his own time. It is, according to this verse, incumbent upon all the peoples, of whatever age, to believe in his Prophethood.

May god guide us to the straight path

JK- We all here believe that Muhammad WAS a Prophet and Messenger of GOD and that the Message(Quran) which was delivered through him is universal for ll mankind. No need to confuse the issue. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni"

Salam David,

Well David even if we find only one we should follow it , i personly know 50 sahih hadith which will not contridit with science, history, reason, etc...
Can you accept those ? Is it the matter of authenticity or anything else.I stronly dought the research of free-minders as they are free of minds.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Salam,
A.Albruni

JK- Go ahead and mention them. Any statement that wouldnt contradict with the above mentioned criteria would be acceptable to me. So how does that make hadith unique? The point is when the haidth contain a certain command like how to ritually pray, wash, eat, sleep etc how can we be sure those are inspired by GOD? As i said chain of narration is a nonsense argument. In the Quran we have mathematically coded statments so we or at least i and thos who accept this code can be sure of what they command or advise. Also since the Quran contains NO contras and has been proven consistent throughout which is not the case for ANY of the hadith books, we can also be sure of any of it's statements whilst with hadith we cant. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Peace "albruni"

As i said chain of narration is a nonsense argument.

The source of news and the chain of narration is the most scientific method to see the authenticity of a news, I don't know why people think its ridiculous or nonsense, let me give you an example

A Mullah, sitting in a mosque, was crying ( another person came and saw the mullah crying, upon asking, Mullah replied "actually my wife has become a widow, I just got this news from a friend who visited me this morning"

the other person "are you out of your mind? you are alive how can your wife become a widow???"

confidently, Mullah replied"I know it seems impossible, BUT the source of the news is very authentic!!!" hail

Samia

In 592 it says "Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."
In 6412 it says "And obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the Message clearly."

Is "Apostle" the exact as "the messenger"?
Both words are the translation of "rasool ". However, "rasool " in Arabic is primarily "message", secondarily "messenger".
I would rather translate these two verses as "Obey God, and obey the message...", otherwise, how can one obey a dead person?