Was the Qur'an the Only Revelation That The Prophet Received From Allah

jonny_k

Peace "albruni"

Yes,Quran was not explained by prophet on his own,Quran says Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (7516-19) Allah Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet to explain the verses of the Holy Quran to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Quran itself. It is not the Holy Quran. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Therefore, it should necessarily be in some other form, distinct from the words of the Holy Book. And this is exactly what is meant by the "unrecited revelation." But the two kinds of revelation, though different in their form, are both revealed to the Holy Prophet; both are from Allah; and both are to be believed and obeyed by the Muslims.

JK- I believe i explained this in the other post that the Quran is self explanatory and only the Quran has scientific evidence of being accurate and consistent.

God is in all his sense ,it's we who denies to understand.Concider this verse "Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before Allah in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of Allah in the way He taught you. (2238-239)"
Can you tell me what is the way to perform prayer when we are in peace ?It means that Allah has taught the way of prayer to the Holy Prophet through some "unrecited revelation" not contained in the Holy Quran, and the Holy Prophet taught it to the Muslims. Thus, the Muslims have been taught by Allah through the teaching of the Holy Prophet. However, the teaching of the Holy Prophet is described in the holy verse as the teaching of Allah, because it was based on the "unrecited revelation."

JK- It is nonsense to claim that GOD taught some explicit ritualistic prayer to the Prophet outside the Quran. What is meant here is ACCORDING TO THE NATURE OF HUMANS. When wer using our hearts and minds to focus on GOD it is He Who is etaching us and in peace times wed naturally prolong our prayers and in times of war and uproar wed shorten them. Also our underatdning of prayer continuously evolves and so GOD is continuously teaching us what we never knew. Many articles have been written on salat at this forum. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13270.0

In 592 it says "Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."
In 6412 it says "And obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the Message clearly."

The Prophet not only has to deliver the message but he has to deliver it clearly. The Arabs can understand the Quran as it's in there own language but still it's been said to convey clearly because obviously the Prophet had to explain it to them and elaborate it to the people just as the next two verses indicate...

1644 - "(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought."
1664 ? "And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe."

These verses show that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent to explain the Quran. It doesn't just mean to proclaim. To proclaim is to 'baligh' like in 567. Here the word is "litubayyina", which means to explain just like how it is used in verse 144 "We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now God leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is exalted in power, full of Wisdom."

JK- I explained the term BYN in one of my posts above already. Please refer to that. Regarding obedience to GOD and His messenger ive already shown that after the death of the physical messenger the Quran itself becomes the messenger.

if the only duty of the prophet is to deliver the quran then why all the apostle sent in the language of his own people.
God sent messangers in Human form rather angels which the disbeliever prefers because they can be taken as model.
God sent more than one messenger to a community because they can explain clearly.

JK- GOD's sends messengers in the language of the people so that they can understand the message, obviously. And no GOD did not send send humans as messengers to be taken as a model. The reason IMO as to why he sends human messengers is to test whether the people would beleive in Him even if Hed send a human just like themselves or not. Malaaika or the universal forces of GOD are not send down because then the TEST WOULD BE OVER as is evident from this verse
We do not send down the malaaikah except for specific functions. Otherwise, no one will be respited.
GOD could also make everyone beleive instantly if He wanted as stated in another verse of the Quran. So this nothing but a test.

I agree that there are verses which say that the only duty of the messenger is to deliver the message "The messenger is obliged only to convey (the message)"(599, see also 320, 592, 1340, 1635, 82, 2454, 2918, 3617, 4248, 6412). However, does not say that conveying (the message) is simply reciting the Qur'an. The context shows the meaning to be that the Prophet is not responsible for the belief or unbelief of the people or for their obedience or disobedience to the message. His obligation is to simply convey the message.

JK- Thats rigt convey and not explain by Himself as GOD Himself would explain it through the messenger as well.

The basic question underlying this issue has already been answered in detail; and that is the question of the nature of this authority. It has been established through a number of arguments that the obedience of the Holy Prophet was not enjoined upon the Muslims in his capacity of a ruler. It has been enjoined in his capacity of a prophet. Had it been the authority of a ruler only which the Holy Prophet exercised, it would logically be inferred that the authority is tied up with his rule, and as soon as his administrative rule is over, his authority simultaneously ceases to have effect.

JK- And this is exacly my point. How do we know what Muhammad the man enjoined as a messenger except of what is in Quran? Ive already explained why chain of narration and trust is nonsense.

But if the authority is a "Prophetic" authority, and not merely a "ruling authority," then it is obvious that it shall continue with the continuance of the prophethood, and shall not disappear until the Holy Prophet no longer remains a prophet.

JK- Hes not a prophet or a messenger right now since he passed away. All that is left again is the Quran as the authentic teachings coming through the once living messenger Muhammad.

Now, the only question is whether the Holy Prophet was a prophet of a particular nation or a particular time, or his prophethood extended to the whole mankind for all times. Let us seek the answer from the Holy Quran itself. The Holy Quran says

Say O mankind! I am the Messenger of Allah to you all. (715
And We did not send you (O Prophet) except to the entire mankind, bearing good news and warning. (342
And We did not send you save as a mercy unto all the worlds. (21107)
Blessed be He Who has sent down the Quran on His servant so that he may be a warner to all the worlds. (251)
And We have sent you (O Prophet) for mankind as a messenger. And Allah suffices to be a witness. (479)
And the whole mankind is addressed when it is said
O mankind! The Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe it is better for you. And if you disbelieve, to Allah belongs what is in the heavens and in the earth. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. (4170)

The first five verses need no elaboration. They are self-explanatory on the point that the Holy Prophet was sent to the whole mankind and not to a particular people; his prophethood was not limited either in time or in place.

The fifth verse addresses the whole mankind and enjoins upon all of them to believe in the Holy Prophet. Nobody can say that the belief of the Holy Prophet was restricted to his own time. It is, according to this verse, incumbent upon all the peoples, of whatever age, to believe in his Prophethood.

May god guide us to the straight path

JK- We all here believe that Muhammad WAS a Prophet and Messenger of GOD and that the Message(Quran) which was delivered through him is universal for ll mankind. No need to confuse the issue. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni"

Salam David,

Well David even if we find only one we should follow it , i personly know 50 sahih hadith which will not contridit with science, history, reason, etc...
Can you accept those ? Is it the matter of authenticity or anything else.I stronly dought the research of free-minders as they are free of minds.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Salam,
A.Albruni

JK- Go ahead and mention them. Any statement that wouldnt contradict with the above mentioned criteria would be acceptable to me. So how does that make hadith unique? The point is when the haidth contain a certain command like how to ritually pray, wash, eat, sleep etc how can we be sure those are inspired by GOD? As i said chain of narration is a nonsense argument. In the Quran we have mathematically coded statments so we or at least i and thos who accept this code can be sure of what they command or advise. Also since the Quran contains NO contras and has been proven consistent throughout which is not the case for ANY of the hadith books, we can also be sure of any of it's statements whilst with hadith we cant. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Peace "albruni"

As i said chain of narration is a nonsense argument.

The source of news and the chain of narration is the most scientific method to see the authenticity of a news, I don't know why people think its ridiculous or nonsense, let me give you an example

A Mullah, sitting in a mosque, was crying ( another person came and saw the mullah crying, upon asking, Mullah replied "actually my wife has become a widow, I just got this news from a friend who visited me this morning"

the other person "are you out of your mind? you are alive how can your wife become a widow???"

confidently, Mullah replied"I know it seems impossible, BUT the source of the news is very authentic!!!" hail

Samia

In 592 it says "Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner."
In 6412 it says "And obey ALLAH and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then Our Messenger is responsible only for conveying the Message clearly."

Is "Apostle" the exact as "the messenger"?
Both words are the translation of "rasool ". However, "rasool " in Arabic is primarily "message", secondarily "messenger".
I would rather translate these two verses as "Obey God, and obey the message...", otherwise, how can one obey a dead person?

Albruni

Is "Apostle" the exact as "the messenger"?
Both words are the translation of "rasool ". However, "rasool " in Arabic is primarily "message", secondarily "messenger".
I would rather translate these two verses as "Obey God, and obey the message...", otherwise, how can one obey a dead person?

What do you mean by "Obey God"

Albruni

Salaam,

Then read/listen, events and vision are explained in Surah 48 (see 620 minute, verse 4827).

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0_jBFJgYOg

Peace

Salaam brother,

I tried your link but i am not able to access it ,could you please explain it.

Salaam
A.Albruni

Albruni

Peace "albruni",

JK- Hadith is a biased source and doesnt tell us anything. You might come up with a story reg 1760 from hadith BUT will it be accurate? No it wont. We would need independent archaeological evidence to verify what this Qurnaic verse meant. This is the case with many verses in the Quran.

Salam brother,

Well its good that you accept that many Quranic verse need independent archaeological evidence.
Quran talk's about God,Hevan,Hell for this we cant find archaeological evidence but we or I believe the most in this because the quran say so.
Believing the prophet means following what he said and he explained what 1760 says as it was revealed to him.

Salam,
A.Albruni

Albruni

Regarding "litubayyina" many sectarians have misinterpretd this word. People who establish Hadith and Sunna as another source of religious teachings besides the Quran, opted the irrelevant meaning of the Arabic word "BYN". The word "'lituBaYyeNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means 1) To reveal what is concealed. 2) To explain what is vague. The first meaning is the antonym of "hide(katama)", the second is the antonym of "make vague". God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers (1635). Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337, 2025). If the Quran is a profound Arabic book, if it is explained by God, and if it is simple to understand (515; 26195; 111; 5417; 551-2), then the prophet does not have an extra mission to explain it. Furthermore, the verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation. Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it(la taktumoonahu)." Ill see through the rest when i have time but i beleive much of it has already ben answered. GOD Bless!

Salam Brother,

Read the verse once again you will find the answer "And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe" is this not point that he has to explain

622 - Says "It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-"

Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our signs and who sanctifies you (and/or helps you grow) and teaches you the book and wisdom and teaches you what you did not know (2151).

God has verily shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger from among them who recites unto them his signs and sanctifies them (and /or helps them grow), and teaches them the book and wisdom, although before they were in flagrant error (3164).

Check are you in flagrant error.

The verses clearly mention four roles of the Messenger.

To recite the revelations of God unto the people (this is the only one that the Quranites accept)
To purify the people
To teach them the Book (meaning the Qur'an)
Teaching them the wisdom

just because the man is dead, that does not mean that his teachings are. They are preserved in the authentic hadith.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

Albruni

Although thought I have an extensive Hadith collection I tend to use them rarely because I would prefer being 100% Quran rather than going off resorting to books with errors and haven't been approved by God.

Salam Brother,

Alhamdulila you chosen the right religion,but the right way to follow the religion is by upholding the Quran and authentic Hadith.with out proper explanation to the verses you will not have proper answer on How to pray, How many rakaths to pray, How many times to pray, what to recite while praying, How much to pay as zakath, How to perform tamathu hajj, How to punish a thief, About eating human, donkey, dog flesh, even you can drink alcohol.You follow what you understand if every body can understand there is no need of sending a messanger.

"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path."

Albruni

Peace "albruni",
JK- Well this is exactly the problem. How do you know the narrators were honest? How do you know the chain is unbroken? You never met them in person and you have no archaeological evidence to back any of this up. All you have is writings here and there. How is any of that trustworthy? They are mostly if not all biased sources. GOD Bless!

If this is the problem then i have the answer for it......
The earth is spear , the sun is spinning will you say this is written here and there so will not believe it - No because you will say that its prove that its spear and spinning similarly the hadhis science is very much proved and anybody with knowledge of the science of hadhis can find out which is fabricated ,which is sahi,which one chain is broken ,wether the person is hones or not etc..

outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the enormous number of 'ulama', the Companions and those who followed their way, who had taught in various centers of learning and helped to transmit the legacy of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) - all of this achieved through precise attention to the words narrated and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of Hadith. Action being the best way to preserve teachings, the renewer's of Islam also revived the practice of the blessed authentic Sunnah.

Its not biased its all Authentic.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

Albruni

Peace "albruni" and all hadith followers,
I think those who follow hadith besides Quran dont understand one basic issue. We at free-minds dont give a damn about chain of narration. CHAIN OF NARRATION, TRUST OF THE PEOPLE OR THEM BEING RIGHTEOUS IN HISTORY HAS NEVER BEEN THE CRITERIA FOR US TO ACCEPT THE QURAN IS THE TRUE WORD OF GOD. We accept the Quran as the true Od of GOD because the rationality it contains, the scientific foreknowledge it contains, it's statements being in agreement with the real world, the mathematical strcuture(which IMO and those of many other bros is the most important criteria also defining the boundaries of the Quran inside the written mushaf", the lack of contradictions and also to this day no statement of the Quran has been falsified by science. So this trust a righteous person and chain of narration is your deal, NOT OURS and it is of no use. I still remember when I was young i was bombarded with statements like the Prophet Muhammad was always the most honest, never lied, always returned all the property entrusted to him even to the Kufaar etc. I personally say now that i dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not. But lets say he was. Dont you know that some people are so smart they can tell the truth a number of times to make them look honest and then lie in certain regards to gain their own benefit? Ofcourse this can happen. Others might claim the Prophet was just delusion. The only way to be sure is to have the proofs i mentioned above. GOD Bless!

Salam Jonney,

Why you dont give damn about chain of narration ? Now you have started saying that "dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not" when quran says You (O Prophet) are indeed endowed with a great character (684)

Please jonney dont include your self ih this verse 2202 - Among people there are those, who without knowledge, dispute about Allah and follow every rebel satan.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

Andya_Primanda

If this is the problem then i have the answer for it......
The earth is spear , the sun is spinning will you say this is written here and there so will not believe it - No because you will say that its prove that its spear and spinning similarly the hadhis science is very much proved and anybody with knowledge of the science of hadhis can find out which is fabricated ,which is sahi,which one chain is broken ,wether the person is hones or not etc..

outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the enormous number of 'ulama', the Companions and those who followed their way, who had taught in various centers of learning and helped to transmit the legacy of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) - all of this achieved through precise attention to the words narrated and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of Hadith. Action being the best way to preserve teachings, the renewer's of Islam also revived the practice of the blessed authentic Sunnah.

Its not biased its all Authentic.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

I assume you're talking about those scholars from Iran and Uzbekistan like Imam Bukhari, Muslim, etc.

Can you confirm that they're trustworthy, or do you take their trustworthiness on faith?

unknownuser

I tried your link but i am not able to access it ,could you please explain it.

Peace,

http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/48.htm

It?s a recital of Surah 48 which tells the story explaining the event especially?

4827 Indeed God fulfilled His Messenger?s vision in truth. You shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if God wills, secure with hair shaved or shortened, without fear. He knew what you knew not, and granted you besides this a near victory.

Hope that answers your question below...

Albruni
1760 - When We said to you Indeed, your Lord encompasses all people. We did not make the vision which We showed to you, and the tree cursed in the Koran except to be a trial for people, and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence.

What was the vision showed ? Can you explain ?
I can explain with the help of Hadis."

Its not biased its all Authentic.

I'll ask again; post ONE hadith you believe is authentic which should be appended to Qur'an and why?

Roshan

Peace

Salam Brother,

I am not to find defect in Quran....Nor anybody can. My point is both Quran and Hadith are revelation from Allaha and we have to follow.

And We have sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the dhikr that you may explain to humankind what has been sent down unto them that haply they may reflect (1644)

He it is Who has raised among the unlettered ones a messenger from among them who recites unto them his signs and purifies them (and /or helps them grow), and teaches them the book and wisdom, although before they were in manifest error (622). (See also 2231 and 4113, where it is said the Prophet teaches the book and wisdom).

I am sorry, but you have not justified your opinion from the Quran. You said Muhammad received other hadith besides the Quran that were revelations from God and that man must follow as a source of religious law. Dhikr does not mean hadith. Hadith is not mentioned in 622 either. Therefore your argument is invalid. In fact your methodology is as follows

Islam = Quran plus non Quranic hadith
Must find superficial points of concordance to justify 1) because 1) is correct.

Do you not see the fallacy in this logic?

Now about the verse which says "And We have sent down unto you (O Prophet) the book explaining (tibyanan) everything and as a guidance, and mercy, and glad tidings for those who have surrendered (to God) (1689)".

This is the context (as well as other verses) in which 'obey the messenger' and some of the other verses must be understood. Muhammad was the messenger and his duty was to convey the message. The Quran has everything you need to submit to God. The Quran is a book of submission to God, not a book of Chinese grammar. Your example below is absurd.

since there are clearly things that the Qur'an does not explain; for example, the rules of Chinese grammar or the way to fix your computer. Thus common sense requires that we qualify "everything" as something like "everything that is relevant to religion, spirituality, and morality". Hence the Qur'an explains everything only when its verses are interpreted by taking into account both the context within the book as a whole as well as the context of circumstances, practices, and events that are assumed in those statements. Now this latter context is provided partly by the Hadith.

"And We have indeed coined for humanity every kind of similitude (mathal) in this Qur'an that they may reflect (3927; see also 1789, 1854, 305".

Again, this statement should be understood in the same way as the statement that the Qur'an explains everything.

Notice how you deviate from the Quranic script to justify point 1). Why not do the obvious and explore if point 1 really is true? Throw away your assumptions. You have to think why phrases such as 'sunnah of Muhammad', 'hadith of Muhammad, 'hadith of Bukhari' so prevalent in extra Quranic 'Islamic' teachings are never found in the Quran.

Good luck to you. I think you are closer than you realise (or else why would you be here). The verse mentioned by Wakas does not have the disclaimer I have bold fonted!

Roshan

Jack

Peace,

The thing is the hadeeth were never authorized by Muhammad and most importantly God. Not unless The messenger had an interest in being KILLED (6940-46).

1015 And when Our clear AYATS are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!"

Ask yourself this Why don't these people simply say 'give us a different ruling!' i.e. hadith?

17/73-76 also talks about this...

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam brother,

Well its good that you accept that many Quranic verse need independent archaeological evidence.
Quran talk's about God,Hevan,Hell for this we cant find archaeological evidence but we or I believe the most in this because the quran say so.
Believing the prophet means following what he said and he explained what 1760 says as it was revealed to him.

Salam,
A.Albruni

JK- Indeed we do. Regarding heaven and hell ofcourse that would come under the category of cosmology rather than archaeology, logically . Professor Frank Tipler has proposed a nice theory for the afterlife and how it could come about in a cosmic crunch explained in his book "the omega point theory". Though it may be lacking independent inquiry at the moment, since the Quran does seem to support it and since it has become our accepted criteria, i tend to agree with many of hs points. Regarding angels, jinn, shaitaan i already explained that they mean "forces/authorities, hidden tribes/elite comunitities, wrongdoer/rebellious being" respectively since thats what the root of those terms mean in classical arabic and not some mythical creatures. Reg 1760 first of all i dont accept that the you(singular in arabic) refers to Muhammad exclusively. 2ndly whatever he was inspired with and is not at some palce or another mentioned in the Quran is IRRELEVANT TO OUR TIME. Also the vision in 1760 could very well be referring to Muhammad's journey to the highest heaven to receive the Quran, as stated in 171 and 531-18. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam Brother,

Read the verse once again you will find the answer "And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe" is this not point that he has to explain

622 - Says "It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-"

Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our signs and who sanctifies you (and/or helps you grow) and teaches you the book and wisdom and teaches you what you did not know (2151).

God has verily shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger from among them who recites unto them his signs and sanctifies them (and /or helps them grow), and teaches them the book and wisdom, although before they were in flagrant error (3164).

Check are you in flagrant error.

The verses clearly mention four roles of the Messenger.

To recite the revelations of God unto the people (this is the only one that the Quranites accept)
To purify the people
To teach them the Book (meaning the Qur'an)
Teaching them the wisdom

just because the man is dead, that does not mean that his teachings are. They are preserved in the authentic hadith.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- YES and all these four options are DONE WITHIN THE BOOK QURAN ITSELF. Thats why i mentioned earlier that the Quran explains itself. Whatever Muhammad had to explain or teach or GOD addressed directly to the people are al to be found in the Quran. Egs would be like when GOD addresses it's "ya ayuhalazeena aamanu" or when Muhammad speaks by inspiration "they ask you concerning menses. SAY...". So whatever Muhammad had to say was the explanation which he did as inspired by GOD and stated in the Quran. There are no extra presevred authentic hadith. Theres no proof for that whatsoever. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

If this is the problem then i have the answer for it......
The earth is spear , the sun is spinning will you say this is written here and there so will not believe it - No because you will say that its prove that its spear and spinning similarly the hadhis science is very much proved and anybody with knowledge of the science of hadhis can find out which is fabricated ,which is sahi,which one chain is broken ,wether the person is hones or not etc..

JK- Ok but the point is if not all hadith ENCLOSED IN A BOOK are authentic then WE need to do the job of picking and choosing. And thats exactly the problem. In that case we dont need religion at all. We could just pick up random statements from various smart people all over the world and analyse which make sense and follow them. WE NEED A FULL TRUSTWORTHY SCRIPTURE. Thats exactly the point. Dont you get this?

outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the enormous number of 'ulama', the Companions and those who followed their way, who had taught in various centers of learning and helped to transmit the legacy of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) - all of this achieved through precise attention to the words narrated and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of Hadith. Action being the best way to preserve teachings, the renewer's of Islam also revived the practice of the blessed authentic Sunnah.

JK- How do you know they were outstanding individuals? Infact your being biased since independent researchers dont at all agree that Bukhari and co were any sort of outstanding individuals. Furthermore theres zero archaelogical evidence to back your claim up. Neither do we know anything about Muhammad's family from independent archaelogical reserach as yet. This claim is thus complete bullcrap.

Its not biased its all Authentic.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- This is nothing more than a faith based claim with no evidence whatsoever. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam Jonney,

Why you dont give damn about chain of narration ? Now you have started saying that "dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not" when quran says You (O Prophet) are indeed endowed with a great character (684)

Please jonney dont include your self ih this verse 2202 - Among people there are those, who without knowledge, dispute about Allah and follow every rebel satan.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- Does being endowed with a great character mean that one could never lie? This is ridiculous since even the most OVERALL GOOD AND JUST people do come into situations of fear and anger where they are tempted to lie and they do. So please stop this nonsense and think before you throw verses at me. GOD Bless!

Albruni

Peace "albruni",

JK- The separate revelation or rather insiration as i said was for him and for his time only. Theres no way we can proof what that is right now and should GOD have wanted us to follow that He would have included that in the Quran. And it has defintely nothing to do with explanining the Quran. The Quran EXPLAINS ITSELF and this is evident from the many verses which repeat the same evident but adding more details.

Salam brother,

Brother don't get confused.. You did agree that there was separate revelation for the messenger. I have explained from quran stating that propet Mohamed was send to all mankind so the revelation will not limit to his life time.
To prove that GOD wants to follow , i have given many verses which ask to follow the messanger also showed how scientifically its preserved , I showed you the verse were GOD says he will explain the Quran to prophet.
So please don't run in circles.we are hear to understand the true religion not to prove ourself.

JK- Ok tell me what about the stoning verse for married adulterers which according to the hadith was EATEN BY A GOAT. Aint this a sick joke of the scholars accepting this? They claim that GOD is able to abrogate His verses by a goat even. So now we ask if that verse is supposed to be abrgated, why do Muslims still follow and practive it? Theyr clearly contradicting themselves here on this issue.
Also the Quran mentions "la ilaaha ilallah" four/five times BUT nowhere in connection with "Muhammad rasoolullah" even in the very sura named Muhammad verse 19. This is considered the most important pillar in Islam and yet it is not stated in the Quran. I challenge you to show me the shahaadah ads you Muslims recite it in the Quran. IMO that even contradicts the Quran because it clearly states to make NO DISTINCTION between the messengers and by repeatedly mentioning his name along with GOD's to the exclusion of all others your doing just that. GOD Bless!

Its a valid argumentI also read the whole article http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htmk
This problem arise due to lack of knowledge about approaching Hadith.Let me brief about this

Although the stoning punishment was invented in Abbasid era, it was never unanimously approved. The contemporary Sunnah scholars admit that Al-Mu?tazala and Rejectionist (Khawarej) rejected the stoning. (Sayyed Sabiq, Sunnah Scholarship, 2/347, the Encyclopedia of Scholarship based on the four dogmas, 5/69 written by Abdel-Rahman Al-Jazzeeri).
The oldest narrations about stoning were mentioned in Nowata of Malik in a narration by Mohammad Ibn Hassan Sheibani. The narration started as (Malik told us that Yahya Ibn Saeed heard Saeed Ibn Mossayyab said When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab came from Mina ?etc). That means the original narrator of this anecdote was Saeed Ibn Mossayyab. He claimed that Omar delivered an oration claiming the existence of the stoning verse in Qur?an, but it was omitted. However, Ibn Mossayyab was two years old when Omar was assassinated. How can a crawling baby telling stories about Omar. So, it is impossible for Ibn Mossayyab to be the narrator. Also, it is impossible for Omar to say something like that. It means that Omar accused the Qur?an of being forged and this is blasphemy. God, Almighty, said ?We revealed this Qur?an, and we are protecting it.? Al-Hijr 9. So, as far as the subject, this narration is false.
3.There is another anecdote in Mowata no. 692. This anecdote is completely false under all measures. Malik narrated this anecdote from Ibn Shehab (Al-Zuhry) who narrated this by himself. Al-Zuhry lived towards the end of the Umayyad era and was one of the followers who never met the Prophet, peace be upon him, or lived his time. Even though we read the following in Mowata (Malik told us that Ibn Shehab told us that a man admitted committing adultery during the reign of the Prophet. The man testified against himself and was ordered to be stoned. Ibn Shehab said For this, one can incriminate himself by self-confession.
The narrations were iterated after Malik. Shafi?e, Bukhari and Moslem wrote them. Sometimes these narrations claim that certain verses in Qur?an did exist and omitted. Bukhari, died yr 256 A.H., narrated from Omar Ibn Khattab, who died 200 years before him, about verses that were omitted from Qur?an and Omar declared them late. Some of these narrations claim that the stoning rite was stemmed from the monkey?s society before Islam. Bukhari narrated in his anecdote no. 3560? Naeem Ibn Hmmad told us about Hasheem about Amr Ibn Meimoun saying I saw before Islam a bunch of monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, and I did the same with them. It seems that the monkeys? society before Islam was ahead in applying the stoning. Anybody asked about this monkey?s marital status? Did the narrator discuss this issue with the Clergy of the monkeys and how to prove the occurrence of adultery? Did the monkeys use four witnesses? All of these narrations contradicting themselves.
Contradiction in narrations
Contradiction is the main characteristic of Narrations. Two kinds of contradictory characters appear in narrations partial contradiction in the details of the same story, and major contradiction among different stories. As an example of the latter, Bukhari produced a narration about a man came to the Prophet and admitted committing adultery. The prophet avoided him. The prayer time came and the man witnessed the prayer with the Prophet. He reiterated his confession to the Prophet and demanded to be punished. The prophet said to him did you not pray with us? The man said yes. The Prophet said God forgave your sin. This means that prayer forgives the sins and negates the stoning. This is a stark contradiction with other narrations that are damped with the stoned victims? blood.
While Bukhari, Shafi?e and Malik narrations emphasized that the punishment for the married adulterer is only stoning, we found that Moslem narrated repeated stories emphasizing in them that the Prophet said The punishment of the single is 100 lashes and one year exile. The married punishment is 100 lashes then stoning. The danger in these narrations that it made the punishment for the married adulterer was 100 lashes before being killed stoning. This is another contradiction with other narrations.
These stories and anecdotes were written in the books of narrations to become major source of legislation for Moslems. Especially, when the scholars and the storytellers celebrated them and everyone re-iterated these narrations as ?real? and ?rites?. This was emphasized by the application of these narrations that sent many men and women victims to death based on legislation God never authorized.

About shahaadah. Shahaadah is the belife we have declaration "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.",I understand you dont have any problem in accepting the first line which says "There is no god but Allah, You have only problem in the second phase which says "and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."

As mentioned earlier, Islam teaches that the Prophets were the best of humanity, specifically chosen by God due to their excellent qualities specifically to preach the message of God to humanity.

?The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ?We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers.?? (2285)

Its a declaration were we accept that There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.
Nobody can disagree with this statement because both has been mention in quran which is true.
I agree that we should not make any DISTINCTION between the messengers and we are not.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni