The enemies of reason. A must see!
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I disagree. If you have no evidence to support A or B as explanations, and A is simple whilst B is complex, you have no reason to believe either. Simplicity in itself is an artificial concept. When a situation looks simple, that is always because you lack information. Aren't you familiar with the concept of fractals?
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Peace "Mahmud",
I disagree. If you have no evidence to support A or B as explanations, and A is simple whilst B is complex, you have no reason to believe either. Simplicity in itself is an artificial concept. When a situation looks simple, that is always because you lack information. Aren't you familiar with the concept of fractals?
JK- You do have appx equal facts supporting explanations A or B. This is what ive explained before. In that case the simplest is most liely to be the correct one. If you disagree then im sorry to say you disagree with science since it has been observed consistently that Occam's Razor works for the majority of cases. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Mahmud",
Heres a more clear definition of Occam's Razor from wikiOccam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness" "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".
This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.
GOD Bless!
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Yes, it doesn't say the simplest explanation is 'usually' correct. Because that wouldn't be scientific.
I don't like this attempt to strip down religion to observable, understandable phenomenon. It is not taking the revelations in the spirit in which they were given.
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Peace "Mahmud",
Yes, it doesn't say the simplest explanation is 'usually' correct. Because that wouldn't be scientific.
JK- I believe i clarified this now.
I don't like this attempt to strip down religion to observable, understandable phenomenon. It is not taking the revelations in the spirit in which they were given.
JK- And here exactly is the problem. I myself and many others dont even call Islam a religion but a system/way of life. I also dont like the terms spirit/soul and would rather use conscience/self instead of them which we understand now is formed by specific combination of neural signals in the brain. Religion and blind faith is nonsense and unacceptable to any rational mind. It has caused nothing but problems in the long run. As for the true Islam based on Quran Alone we are making observations everaday and the data is adding up showing that this system is very consistent with reality. Hence we accept and trust it otherwise why would we bother following it? Why do you bother following your version of Islam/hadith islam? GOD Bless!
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I believe in following the religion that accords with human nature, with the spirit of what we are. Allah did not create us to be logic automatons, rolling around like Daleks, computing bits of evidence to mathematically construct a system/way. Allah created living, breathing human beings. He didn't make us communicate using binary code, but with all of our languages. Islam isn't a rulebook but a living culture. The Prophet did not convert Arabia using argument, but through singing poetry.
Human nature isn't logical or rational. The things that motivate us most are faith, hope and love. That is why religion must be spiritual. The soul isn't what we think with, it isn't the inefficient calculator that is the brain. Only Allah knows the essence of who we are. True worship of Allah only occurs when our thoughts go quite, that is why the Prophet sang the poetry of the Quran, and didn't argue it. Arguing makes people think more, whilst singing relaxes us, especially devotional singing to our most merciful creator.
If you want to know what is in the middle, between blind faith, and blind logic, you have to look into our humanity, the essence of ourselves that we call the soul because we know no material definition can every truly capture it. The connection with God inside ourselves, the word of god, holy spirit, spirit of wisdom, great life force, the Power of Almighty God, the natural desire to worship Allah that was implanted inside our humanity. Every culture and every society in the whole world has developed a system of spirituality, of worshiping God, however they understand him. Of course God wants us to worship him, he wrote it into our DNA. You don't need a handful of apocalyptic prophecies and medieval number games to work that out.
Interestingly enough, Dawkins seems to have copied William Ralph Inge in the title of his video. "The enemies of reason" of course echoes the saying "The enemies of freedom do no argue, they shout and they shoot". But enemies of reason lacks something that enemies of freedom has. Of course, it is because freedom is a passionate, spiritual concept, whilst reason is much more mundane. Freedom is also a religious concept. "Whoever sins is a slave to sin", the Prophet Jesus tells us, whilst he, the Messiah - the one Anointed by the Power of of Almighty God - comes to set us free, as the spirit is what guides our conscience, so we know the difference between right and wrong, and can become free from sin.
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Peace "Mahmud",
I believe in following the religion that accords with human nature, with the spirit of what we are. Allah did not create us to be logic automatons, rolling around like Daleks, computing bits of evidence to mathematically construct a system/way. Allah created living, breathing human beings. He didn't make us communicate using binary code, but with all of our languages. Islam isn't a rulebook but a living culture. The Prophet did not convert Arabia using argument, but through singing poetry.
JK- Wrong infact GOD said that the Prophet is NOT A POET
What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a reminder, and a profound Quran.
Now regarding human nature, how do you know what the true human natue is. Remeber this is not so universal otherwise there wouldnt be so many cultures. Faithful Christians claim their religion is in accordance with nature, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus all make the same claim so which one is right. Through observations and science weve got to know much about human nature which we didnt know before carrying it out subcnsciously only. It is very important to learn and understand it only then can we advance.Human nature isn't logical or rational. The things that motivate us most are faith, hope and love. That is why religion must be spiritual. The soul isn't what we think with, it isn't the inefficient calculator that is the brain. Only Allah knows the essence of who we are. True worship of Allah only occurs when our thoughts go quite, that is why the Prophet sang the poetry of the Quran, and didn't argue it. Arguing makes people think more, whilst singing relaxes us, especially devotional singing to our most merciful creator.
JK- Yes human's are not only logical but they should be as far as possible. Yes they should allow their emotions too but never give u rational thought. This is very important and if we dont do that wed end up back in the dark ages with fighting and killing each other because everybody thinks his culture/religion is the best. Moreover faith, hope and love must never be the things to motivate us withut reason. If they do then we may be ready to kill people of other faiths just because they criticise ours. Dont you see that this is exactly where the problem lies?
If you want to know what is in the middle, between blind faith, and blind logic, you have to look into our humanity, the essence of ourselves that we call the soul because we know no material definition can every truly capture it. The connection with God inside ourselves, the word of god, holy spirit, spirit of wisdom, great life force, the Power of Almighty God, the natural desire to worship Allah that was implanted inside our humanity. Every culture and every society in the whole world has developed a system of spirituality, of worshiping God, however they understand him. Of course God wants us to worship him, he wrote it into our DNA. You don't need a handful of apocalyptic prophecies and medieval number games to work that out.
JK- Yes one is the spiritual deveopment which has been there in societies to simplify things for them and ru away from ral life. But hings are never that easy. The other side was also emotionl like all humans but used the rational approach to come to know whats true. As for the definition of soul i told you "nafs" should be interpreted as "self". Regarding the connection with GOD sure one can try and connect with GOD through meditation but before one accepts anything as coming from GOD there needs to be evidence otherwise you might be carrying out an irrational command whcih your brain just made up and tht is very dangerous.
Interestingly enough, Dawkins seems to have copied William Ralph Inge in the title of his video. "The enemies of reason" of course echoes the saying "The enemies of freedom do no argue, they shout and they shoot". But enemies of reason lacks something that enemies of freedom has. Of course, it is because freedom is a passionate, spiritual concept, whilst reason is much more mundane. Freedom is also a religious concept. "Whoever sins is a slave to sin", the Prophet Jesus tells us, whilst he, the Messiah - the one Anointed by the Power of of Almighty God - comes to set us free, as the spirit is what guides our conscience, so we know the difference between right and wrong, and can become free from sin.
JK- Yes but relgionists pick and choose. Religion has much more than just this statement by Jesus like killing apostates, stoning aduleters, burning witches, etc etc. NOW whos making the decision of what is moral and what not and HOW? Dont you see that it is us USING OUR RATIONALE by which we get to know what is right and what is wrong. Go check out Shermer's "the science of good and bad". Religion is mostly a disaster should it rely on blind faith. The progrss we see in Judeo-Christianity today is not due to their religion but to science. They adopted it so they wldnt be eradicated completely. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
I agree.
I am ready to accept that the quran is full of allegories that have been misunderstood because of literal interpretations, but the quran certainly doesn't contain miraculous scientific knowledge.
I think we underestimate the people of the past, they probably had more knowledge than we think they did, and any information in the quran must have been known by people at the time, especially since that knowledge is being used to make a point.Forget even people of the past, we don't know what they know. That'd be guess-work. The quran says that the stories contain lessons for the people of intelligence (12111) and The God doesn't shy away from any allegory; from the mosquito to greater (226). Is a mosquito mentioned anywhere else? And according to 226, the metaphors leads to guidance as well and right after that it goes into the the Adam story... (230 on).
We should be seeking lessons from the stories.
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Peace "House M.D",
No we shouldnt entirely forget the people of the past. Infact they are very important to explain ur evolutionary history and proper archaelogical reserach can verify alot in this regard. This is the only way many Quranic verses talking about such people and the events associated with them could be verified also, there momentary acceptance relying on the basis of the Quran's mathemtical structure and the lack of contras within itslf or with science if interpreted in the classical arabic language. The Quran even states
Precedents have been set for you in the past; roam the earth and note the consequences for the unbelievers.
This is exactly what archaeologists are doing and should do. Bro Andya Primanda also once pointed this out. GOD Bless!GOD Bless!
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^
Yes, but I believe DArgento was talking about textual accounts that are not dated to an age where they have authority? Hadeeth, of any type really.
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Peace,
Interpretations of archaeological findings is far from factual. It's just that -- an interpretation. In any case, is evolutionary history going to guide you in anyway? The quran advises against looking at history, 1822. Do you know what that verse is about? The sleeper of the caves, there is archaelogical evidence for them, if I remember correctly. But what does Al quran say about this? "Do not seek information regarding them from anyone"
Archeology is all well and good, but it's not going to guide anyone. Sure, it's important to understand where we came from etc., But it won't guide anyone!
I am not saying archaeologists shouldn't do what they are doing. I am saying this is not the purpose of the Quran. Guidance is the purpose of the quran.
2110
We have sent down to you a book containing your remembrance. Do you not understand?
202 We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
203 It is but a reminder for the one who takes heed.As for 3/137, it mentions Al-Mukazzibeen.
You can easily find out their character traits, using the art of cross-reference. No need to rely on biased history.
Kaf-Thal-Ba = To lie, say what is not a fact, lie to falsely invent, tell lies about or against, fabricate a lie, relate a lie, say a falsehood, be wrong, be cut off, deceive, disappoint the expectation of.
kathaba vb. (1)
perf. act. 624, 990, 1118, 1227, 3932, 3960, 5311
impf. act. 210, 977, 3615
perf. pass. 12110
n.vb. 375, 378, 394, 450, 541, 542, 5103, 621, 693, 6144, 737, 789, 1017, 1060, 1069, 1118, 1218, 1662, 16105, 16116, 16116, 16116, 185, 1815, 2061, 2338, 2968, 348, 4028, 4224, 5814, 617, 725
pcple. act. 361, 628, 766, 942, 943, 9107, 1127, 1193, 1226, 1274, 1639, 1686, 16105, 2390, 247, 248, 2413, 26186, 26223, 2727, 2838, 293, 2912, 37152, 393, 4028, 4037, 562, 5818, 5911, 631, 9616
pcple. pass. 1165kaththab n.m. 384, 4024, 4028, 5425, 5426
kaththaba vb. (2)
perf. act. 239, 287, 311, 3184, 510, 570, 586, 65, 621, 631, 639, 649, 657, 666, 6147, 6148, 6150, 6157, 736, 737, 740, 764, 764, 772, 792, 796, 7101, 7136, 7146, 7147, 7176, 7177, 7182, 854, 1017, 1039, 1039, 1041, 1045, 1073, 1074, 1095, 1580, 16113, 1759, 2048, 2056, 2177, 2242, 2257, 2326, 2333, 2339, 2344, 2348, 2511, 2511, 2519, 2536, 2537, 2577, 266, 26105, 26117, 26123, 26139, 26141, 26160, 26176, 26189, 2784, 2918, 2937, 2968, 3010, 3016, 3445, 3445, 3525, 3614, 37127, 3812, 3814, 3925, 3932, 3959, 405, 4070, 505, 5012, 5014, 543, 549, 5418, 5423, 5433, 5442, 5719, 625, 6410, 679, 6718, 694, 7532, 7828, 7921, 9111, 9114, 929, 9216, 9613
impf. act. 627, 633, 2242, 23105, 2612, 2783, 2834, 2918, 3220, 3442, 354, 3525, 3721, 5214, 5513, 5516, 5518, 5521, 5523, 5525, 5528, 5530, 5532, 5534, 5536, 5538, 5540, 5542, 5543, 5545, 5547, 5549, 5551, 5553, 5555, 5557, 5559, 5561, 5563, 5565, 5567, 5569, 5571, 5573, 5575, 5575, 5577, 5682, 6844, 7446, 7729, 829, 8311, 8312, 8317, 8422, 957, 1071
perf. pass. 3184, 634, 634, 2244, 354
n.vb. (1) 8519
n.vb. (2) 7828, 7835
pcple. act. 3137, 611, 1636, 4325, 5211, 5651, 5692, 688, 6949, 7311, 7715, 7719, 7724, 7728, 7734, 7737, 7740, 7745, 7747, 7749, 8310LL, V7, p 125, 126, 127, 128
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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Peace "House M.D",
Peace,
Interpretations of archaeological findings is far from factual. It's just that -- an interpretation.
JK- Man this shows that you dont have much knowledge of science at all. If this is just an interpretation then so is the theory of quarks, quantum theory, the big bang, evolution, STELLAR evolution(i.e. star formation) since we cannot observe any of this directly. So accroding to you all of this is false or lacks evidence? Dont you see how ridiculous this is? Science relies on heavy amounts of independent reserach and awaits a CONVERGENCE in results. That is when we know with high probability(science never claims absolute truth as this is unattainable) that something is true and the results int he real world have shown this is the best we can ever get to the truth at any given time.
In any case, is evolutionary history going to guide you in anyway? The quran advises against looking at history, 1822. Do you know what that verse is about? The sleeper of the caves, there is archaelogical evidence for them, if I remember correctly. But what does Al quran say about this? "Do not seek information regarding them from anyone"
JK- The Quran here states do not rely ON HEARSAY as most of the people of the book have been and are still doing. Arch evidence would be a confirmation. Also the verse states that "A FEW DO know the correct number" and those were probably the once who did the arch research and the ones who will be doing it in our day.
Some would say, "They were three; their dog being the fourth," while others would say, "Five; the sixth being their dog," as they guessed. Others said, "Seven," and the eighth was their dog. Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. Therefore, do not argue with them; just go along with them. You need not consult anyone about this.Archeology is all well and good, but it's not going to guide anyone. Sure, it's important to understand where we came from etc., But it won't guide anyone!
[/quoteJK- Ofcourse it would guide us. It would guide us even more to the understanding of the Quranic verse and would further confirm them. And when we see how people of the ast were being destroyed exactly where and how the Quran mentions it would instill more fear in our hearts and wed ponder upon the Quran even more.
I am not saying archaeologists shouldn't do what they are doing. I am saying this is not the purpose of the Quran. Guidance is the purpose of the quran.
[/quoteJK- MAN the Quran is not like other relgiious books you see in the market. It points out facts in the ral world and asks us to analyse them and hence understand the QUran. This is the way in which it becomes the Ultimate guidance.
2110
We have sent down to you a book containing your remembrance. Do you not understand?
202 We did not send down to you the Qur'an so you may suffer.
203 It is but a reminder for the one who takes heed.As for 3/137, it mentions Al-Mukazzibeen.
You can easily find out their character traits, using the art of cross-reference. No need to rely on biased history.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
JK- Wer not necessarily talking about the character traits of certain people. Wer talking about the actual events which certain people in the past faced as describe in the Quran and i quoted a verse which states to ROAM the earth AND SEE what was the end of those who disbeleived eg the ppl of Lot Moses and Shuaib. GOD Bless!
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I too don't believe Jinns are invisible demons that whisper in your ear. I think they are more accurately our own ego or lower desires. However I would like to share a couple of personal experiences I have had since I have been in Indonesia which border on the supernatural or unexplained.
'Doktor Setrum' or in English 'The Electric Doctor'
About 3 and a half years ago before Allah had guided me to Islam, I was on a Holiday on Lombok Island with a friend who had come to visit me in Indonesia. We spent about 2 weeks frolicking in sun and sand. I will spare the details as it was a time before my enlightenment. Finally I had to go back to Jakarta to start my new job and the night before I left I stayed in a hotel room close to the airport as to not miss my flight.
Upon awakening the next day, I found that I had developed a severe eye infection in both my eyes, though the day before I was fine. Needless to say this made my flight home very long and uncomfortable. Both my eyes were bloodshot, itchy and watering non-stop. When I finally arrived in Jakarta I immediately went to the international clinic close to my home. Not surprising, the doctors could not diagnose the problem and I left with a handful of antibiotics and some eye drops.
After about 3 or 4 days of taking the medication my condition hadn't changed. In fact it seemed to be getting worse. Over the next 2 weeks or so I desperately went from doctor to doctor to help fix my eyes but without success. At this point not only had I spent well over $800 dollars on medical bills but my eye sight was starting to worsen. I was slowly going blind. My final attempt was to go to the best eye specialist in Jakarta and this too was not cheap. However the doctor there could also not diagnose the problem and again I left with antibiotics and eye drops.
Reluctantly I took the medicine hoping that this time it might help, but to my shock I apparently had a bad allergic reaction to these particular antibiotics. I began vomiting and started to severely dehydrate. Obviously I immediately stopped taking them. I still remember my weakest moment bent over a toilet, eyes burning, going blind and vomiting for the umpteenth time and it was at this point that I decided to just surrender to God. The very next morning a friend called me and asked if I would like to visit an alternative doctor that he had been seeing. I said yes without question. He told me that it was a 2 hour drive from the city and I said when do we leave.
Upon arriving in the small village of Subang, where the doctor lived, we made our way to his house and waited our turn for treatment. Their was a large family ahead of us carrying in an old man. I'm not sure what was wrong with him.
When it was my turn I went into the doctors little office which was just a room off the side of his house. He was a short man and a Muslim. He wore an Indonesian peci (Muslim cap) and was very modest and polite. He looked at me and asked what the problem was. I simply pointed at my grotesque eyes. He replied, "You are allergic to fish. Stop eating it." I found this interesting as I had never before had an allergy to fish but while in Lombok I ate it every day. It is quite good in Lombok and fresh.
He then told me to remove my shoes and lie on a small bed which I proceeded to do. Without saying a word he rolled up his sleeves and gently grabbed hold of my feet. What happened next was hard to believe. A strong electrical curent was surging from his hands into my feet! Startled, I lifted my head to see if he was touching my feet with some kind of electrical device but it was only his hands.
He slowly moved his hands up my body touching various parts. First my legs, then my hands and arms, my shoulders, my head and finally my eyes. Each time he laid his hands on me I could feel this strong electrical current flowing from his hands into my body. It felt like it would if you stuck your finger into an electrical outlet only less intense or more spread out and not so focused on one spot. It is hard to describe but if you have ever been electrically shocked before that is basically what it felt like.
When he grabbed my shoulders, the current was so strong that my muscles were spontaneously flexing with the current. And when he stroked my head and eyes it hurt! I could feel the current flow all the way to the back of my head and into my teeth. I swear i could even hear it!
The whole process took about 5 minutes. When he had finished with my head he said that it was over. He then gave me some herbal medicine of his own design and told me to come back 2 more times. I then asked, "How much for the treatment?" He replied, "As much as you want to pay." I paid him the equivalent of 10 USD which is a lot of money for him. And went on my way.
I did return 2 more times and after the third treatment my eyes had completely healed. It was amazing considering that only a week before I was nearly blind and my eyes looked like hamburger. Anyway, I did ask him how it was possible that he did such things. His response went something like this.
"God gave me this ability as long as I promised to live righteously, never lie and always believe that the power comes from Him." He then said, "God also said that I could have 4 wives." This is a loose translation of what I remember. And it was true, he did have 4 wives.
By the way, my friend who invited me was seeing the Electric Doctor for lung and blood cancer. After 6 treatments he had color back in his face and no longer needed a wheelchair. He was recommended by the Doctor to undergo more treatments but my friend had to leave to New Zealand. Before he left my friend asked the Doctor how his condition was and the Doctor told him that the lung cancer was gone but there still existed some cancer of the blood. The doctors in New Zealand confirmed this.
Also, the next time I ate fish I immediately broke out into a terrible rash and had severe headaches. Who knew?
Next time I'll share the story of... The Smell!
Peace
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Interpretations of archaeological findings is far from factual. It's just that -- an interpretation. In any case, is evolutionary history going to guide you in anyway? The quran advises against looking at history, 1822. Do you know what that verse is about? The sleeper of the caves, there is archaelogical evidence for them, if I remember correctly. But what does Al quran say about this? "Do not seek information regarding them from anyone"
Peace House,
If you read the verse literally. That is not saying don't look at history but don't ask questions about the sleepers in the cave. If we are to start making up theories on what it means that would be conjecture. For example, thats like saying follow the messenger means uphold hadith. I only read it literally, trying to deduce hidden meanings is playing with fire. -
Peace,
Forget even people of the past, we don't know what they know. That'd be guess-work. The quran says that the stories contain lessons for the people of intelligence (12111) and The God doesn't shy away from any allegory; from the mosquito to greater (226). Is a mosquito mentioned anywhere else? And according to 226, the metaphors leads to guidance as well and right after that it goes into the the Adam story... (230 on).
We should be seeking lessons from the stories.
So are you deducing based on the fact that the verse is b4 the story of Adam that Adam's story is an allegory? Forgive me if I am mistaken. No offense intended but I find that argument lacking in proof. Because if it is not clearly stated that Adam's story is an allegory. Who is to say that it isn't literal?
Thats like saying the command to obey the messenger means uphold hadith (as in you take a verse to mean something other than what it means).
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Next time I'll share the story of... The Smell!
Far be it from me to propose that I'm a rabid fan, but do go on... )
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Archaeology is very much in line with the quran (2920). It's one of the few ways to get any real history done.
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Far be it from me to propose that I'm a rabid fan, but do go on...
I'll try to repost that story in another thread and I'll also share the story of the Smell sometime this week when I have time. I posted it here because I have had many experiences here in Indonesia that defy what we know as Science. I think of myself as more of a realist but sometimes I am completely stumped by things that can happen in our daily lives. Perhaps science will one day understand it all.
Peace