Would someone explain 6:130 for me

arnoldyasin

Peace Amin,

I know Khidr. We frequently mail each other and supply each other with information. As for his conclusion that I may have used 'mistranslations' is a wrong conclusion as I based my conclusions on the Arabic. But if I would write the article today I would make the translations myself to explain my point better but the conclusions would be almost similair.

As for Iblis being a seperate creature. I understand this conclusion, but it would contradict 2130 and several other verses. Khidr has a more ' religious' minded understanding of the Quran as he focusses on rituals and as far as I know he believes in the concept of forgiveness, while this concept rejects the Quran. The Quran uses compensation as its justice system.

Religious mindsets that are pursuing personal salvation mostly focus on forces outside of them to blame for the evil done. These 2 always come together and are hard to seperate.

So I do not believe we will come together on any conclusion as both sides have a different view on the universal workings. I respect his work and thinking, but our approaches are very different on many things. Arabic is the key to the Quran, but your mind is still the filter and can cripple your whole understanding.

As for my above claims on the Quran's Justice system

6918-20 On the Day you will be brought, not a single hidden deed of yours will
remain hidden. Then he who is given his record in his right hand, will say, ?Come
all of you around! Read this my record. Behold, I always thought that my
account would be given to me.?

Forgiveness means the ignoring of deeds done, which the above verse clearly denies, also forgiveness is about PERSONAL salvation while the Quran focusses on Universal development. The Quran is very practical, one must compensate for the deeds done

11114 Strive to establish and consolidate the Divine System, day and night.
Actions that create balance in the society/Al-Hassanat remove the ill effects of inequities/Al-Sayyi.Good deeds remove bad deeds. This is a Reminder for those who pay attention.

Al-Hassanat=Ha-Siin-Nun = To be handsome, make good, seem good/beautiful/comely/pleasing, be excellent, make or render a thing good or goodly, to beautify/embellish/adorn a thing, strive or compete in goodness, to do good or act well, act or behave with goodness or in a pleasing manner towards a person, confer a benefit or benefits upon a person, act graciously with a person, know a thing well, beautify/embellish/adorn oneself, reckon/account/esteem a person to be good/beautiful/pleasing.

Al-Sayyi=Siin-Waw-Alif = to treat badly, do evil to disgrace, be evil/wicked/vicious, ill, anything that makes a person sad and sorrowful, bad action, mischief and corruption, sin, evil doer, wretched or grievous, vex, annoy. su'atun (pl. suat) - corpse, external portion of both sexes, shame.

2147 We will set up the Scales of justice on the Day of Resurrection, and no
person will be wronged in the least. Though the good or evil be of the weight
of a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. We are Sufficient for reckoning and
none can take account as We do.

And Allah made it easy for us

He who does a good deed will receive ten times its worth; and he who does evil will be requited to an equal degree; and no one will be wronged.

1 good deed=10x
1 bad deed=1x

Ghafour means The Protector, not the Forgiver as the root Gh-F-R refers to shield/helmet/protection against harm or dirt and Rahman/Raheem comes from R-H-M which refers to a woman's womb and thus stands for the providing of nourishment and protection. The term "Merciful" is a Christian word that has no real connection with the words Rahman/Raheem.

This has created a very wrong concept of the Quran where people focus on personal salvation instead of benefitting Mankind in total

1317...That will remain on Earth that which benefits Mankind.

Hajj means Debate/Conference and To repair something. It refers to a Global Debate for repairing the harms done to each other. Salat is explained in 2441 and in Chapter 106.

2441 shows that every creature knows it Salat, meaning they know what to follow (S-L-W=To follow closely/stay attached) to do their Tasbeeh (S-B-H=To swim/to struggle), meaning they follow their instinct to know how to fulfill their potential. We have no instinct, but we have the Quran as our instinct which we must follow. In Chapter 106 we see that in verse 4 Salat is used as worship, but in verse 5 it says that they do not know their real Salat, which is explained in verse 1-3 where it means to benefit Mankind by feeding the poor and help the needy.

Wakas

peace Arnold, all,

I'm not entirely sure what you meant with "we have no instinct" but I think you meant chapter 107 in your last paragraph.

Also, if you use Project Root List, it would be preferable to provide a link for others, for reference and verification purposes. Thanks.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

arnoldyasin

Peace Wakas,

An animal instinct provides the animal with guidelines on how to handle certain situations, how to get food, how protect itself and its offspring and so on.

We as humans do not have a dominant instinct. We have the urge to protect our offspring, the urge to feed ourselves and our family, but we od not have direct guidelines on how to do this. Mankind had to learn all these things by itself and pass this knowledge on. Animals also must teach their offspring certain things, but they have far more programmed reactions and goals then we do.

As we have a free will, societies can get chaotic, especially when they encounter each other. To help Mankind in dealing with this chaos, but at the same time not interferring with Man's free will, God gave us Wahi/Revelation. This is what in my eyes, and also in the eyes of Ahmed Ali, Rashad Rida, Parwez, Shabbir, Mashriqi and many others, 2441 tries to explain us. Just as animals follow their internal program, so must we follow God's given program in the Quran.

And I hadn't used Rootlist for my answer. I have all the dictionaries and Tafseers at home and get it directly from them.

humandesign

Regarding instinct - my take is that man does have instinct but is vulnerable to disobeying it.

For example - what toke me out of the one true 'system' was seeing how generally defunct Muslim society was - most were following pride and materialism and were competitive aswrell as ignorant about the real issues in life.... As I was not widely read on the Quran I thought the religion itself had to be wrong somewhere - so I went searching for place which would allow for living my life with the higher way of being that I beleived in.

However now, as I turn back to the Quran and try to really understand the Quran - - I see how I knew it all along and there so much back up for the ways I was already inclined.

Therefore it is reasonable to consider that some of us may be endowed with more instinct than others.

humandesign

Sorry I didn't mean to come accross as though I may consider myself as some kind of born saint - just to illustrate the point about instinctive traits.

Wakas

peace Arnold,

Thanks for clarifying. I now see you meant not the same degree of instinct, rather than no instinct at all. See 3030, 4153.

And your list of meanings for roots Ha-Siin-Nun & Siin-Waw-Alif were exact replicas of the 'Project Root List' entries, so it seems you did use it.

Amin74

Peace Arnold,

So you know Khidir. Thats great. I really enjoyed your articles on 19.org and I really like Khidir's website. This discourse that is happening today is helping a lot of Muslims and non-Muslims.

When you say that his idea of Iblis being a separate being contradicts 2130, do you mean because all living things are made from water and since Iblis is not made from water, he can not be a living thing?

I was wondering, and I'll check for myself also, if Quran details any other qualities that constitute a 'living thing'? And is this lack of water, in your opinion, the only thing that defines Iblis as a non living entity?

What about our souls? When we die are we no longer considered a living thing? Is life as a soul considered living?
When we die, our soul, or jiwa in Indonesian (jiwa is a more accurate description than soul), survives. Only the material body ceases to function, but can we not say that the jiwa or soul is alive also?
When Jesus was about to be crucified, Allah took his spirit or soul, but his body continued to function. Would his body without a soul still be considered a living thing? Allah did say He was terminating his life when he took him, but his body was still functioning and he was crucified. It almost seems like without the spirit Allah considers the body dead or without life. Of course this concept of the soulless body of Jesus being crucified is one of a few I have read.

This is interesting and I will have to look into it more.

Peace

arnoldyasin

Salaam Amin,

Yes, 2130 shows there are no "spiritual" beings walking on earth, only creatures made of visible molecules. Iblis refers to a state of being where a human can be in.

As for the soul, the Quran calls it Nafs, which comes closer in it smenaing to Self. It refers to your imprint in the Universal Record, Umm Al-Kitab. Your personality is stored away as a file in a computer. See

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16385.0;do=Bookmark

And I do not accept this interpretation of Jesus's body living and his soul taken away. This has no basis at all in the Quran. The Quran says Jesus died of natural causes and he was not crucified and he lived until an old age. History only made it appear as if Jesus was crucified. This is what the Quran says.

Jack

Peace Amin,

I was wondering, and I'll check for myself also, if Quran details any other qualities that constitute a 'living thing'? And is this lack of water, in your opinion, the only thing that defines Iblis as a non living entity?

See 2445, it defines what a 'daaba' a living thing/creature is.

Peace Arnold,

When Jesus was about to be crucified, Allah took his spirit or soul, but his body continued to function. Would his body without a soul still be considered a living thing? Allah did say He was terminating his life when he took him, but his body was still functioning and he was crucified. It almost seems like without the spirit Allah considers the body dead or without life. Of course this concept of the soulless body of Jesus being crucified is one of a few I have read.

This is interesting and I will have to look into it more.

Peace

The Jesus cruxifiction story is not in the Quran. It's forgery by the translators at best. Remember, according to 6114 Jesus won.

Jesus' most likely 'demise' is in 2350.

Also, the part I highlighted, where'd you get that idea?

-Jesus died like all who die in the way of God (i.e. all believers) by being 'raised to God' (3169)

-When Jesus is talking in 1933 he's talking about the ultimate resurrection, not the second coming . In fact, John in 1915 uses the exact same wording.

-According to 4157, he was not crucified or killed, it says so quiet adamantly.

UncleCasual

In the name of God, most merciful, most compassionate.
Peace be with you.

Belief in the existence of Jinn is an intergral part of Islam. Jinn are invisible beings, created from smokeless fire. Each human has a companion jinn. Iblis is a jinn, which is an avoved enemy of humans.
The concept of jinn, is often translated with spirits. In christianity, they are known as demons, particulary the english versions. Christian concepts such as excorcism deals with demons. Shamanic concepts, such as "talking to the spirits", are also related to the same. Jinn may be muslim, or not. Those who correctly worships God, is protected from evil jinn.

Peace be with you.

humandesign

Thanks unclecasual for your very succinct and precise reminder.

Dear Arnold,

I read a review someone gave on amazon in response to his purchase of 'The message' book that he had brought. The guy was saying that if he had known that the authors were actaully a cult group he would not have brought the book. I thought he was going too far with identifying the activites here as a cult - because this is a free minds forum. But now I am really beginning to see the logic in that - as because the main people on this site appear to be reducing everything down to the intellect and reasoning and disregarding personal expereince - as if such other people may be mad or otherwise.

Arnold - how can you reduce a person's behaviour down to the Quran alone - surely people who are not following the Quran may naturally be good submitters to God - based on their natural sense of instinct about what is right and wrong? God and Gabriel are everywhere - not just with people trying to live by and follow the Quran. Only God is the owner of the day of judegement. So we can not say for sure who is not living with their instinct and who is not......other than perhaps to know a good person form teh bad by the concequences of their conduct on others. And where in the Quran does it say that man does not have the instinct that animals do? Instead it says that satan is there to whisper to us - to take us away from our submitting.....to our instinct?

You say Mankind had to learn all these things by itself and pass this knowledge on. My mother teaches that when I am ill I need to eat alot to help sustain my energy - whereas my natrual instinct tells me not to eat - but to save the energy for healing my body. We can see this healing taking place when we are even fasting aswell. Yet I know that if I follow the knowledge handed down to me -I am liable to error. Isn't it clear that we don't need to follow other people's theories that may have been influenced by satan - but to stay true to our divine nature as to what constitutes good and bad? If we try to learn from our previous generations - are we not liable to human error?? We already have the Quran contained within ourselves - our being - our faith and truth can not be reduced to something outside of ourselves. We can find all of the answers within if we just remain connected to the truth - which God says He already made us witness from the very beginniing. He has also said that remembering God at all times is better than even doing salat - who is to say that the aborigines in Austrailia are not better submitters than us - by their simple living in harmony with nature and living without aggression?

The role of the Quran I see as a supporter of our Divine nature and of truths - but not something that our lives need to be reduced and dissected down to. Go from yourself to the Quran not from the Quran to discover the robot within you. Otherwise you become susceptible to satan weaving intellectual precedence on how and what makes sense to be saved as he apprently did with Adam and Eve.

I also see how the proponents of this group appear to be heading towards being a political power in themselves. A lot of bum-licking is apparent when self-preceived inferiors are addressing their percived superiors.

Please do not let your gifts of intelligence to over-ride you and get the better of you.

May God increase us all in submission to Him.

arnoldyasin

Peace Humandesign,

I suggest reading more of my posts before making judgements on how I think or do...

humandesign

Arnold

I'm sure there have been posts where I may have agreed with you or where I thought I did not know any better to be able to comment..

However - I am talking specificly here about the matter about what you have posted in this thread, not really about who you might be as a person.

The observational trends I gave at the end were a generalisation and not at all based on your behaviours - I can not even say whether they do apply to you or not.

Amin74

House M.D. and Arnold,

So 2130 and 2445 tell us what is considered a living thing on Earth. I pasted them below.

2130
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

2445
And Allah has created from water every living creature so of them is that which walks upon its belly, and of them is that which walks upon two feet, and of them is that which walks upon four; Allah creates what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.

It is clear from these verses that living things on Earth are composed of water, but it never mentions water when it speaks of the creation of Adam the first man. At least that I have found so far. Look at these examples. These verses are all talking about Adams creation, the first man.

712 "What prevented you" (said God), "from bowing (before Adam) at My bidding?" "I am better than him," said he. "You created me from fire, and him from clay."

In 712 Iblis states that Adam is made of clay, which is his reason for not bowing to him. And again

1528 But when your Lord said to the angels "I am verily going to create a human being from fermented clay dried tingling hard;

1533 said "I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud."

In Surah 15 it also tells of Adams creation as being from clay but this very important part of creation never says clay AND water. I then found the following verses which seem to piece it all together

327 Who made all things He created excellent; and first fashioned man from clay,

328 Then made his offspring from the extract of base fluid,
Then He made his offspring from semen of worthless water (male and female sexual discharge).
Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;
Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation.
And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised

329 Then proportioned and breathed into him of His spirit, and gave you the senses of hearing, sight and feeling. And yet how little are the thanks you offer!

327-9 seems to describe the whole process of man's creation, but notice how it says his offspring are made from water or semen or fluid. And finally his spirit then his nafs or senses are given to him. We know scientifically that all living things are composed of water but it appears that Adam himself was not, at least while he was still in the metaphysical world, as it says offspring, and no where in the story of Adams creation is water mentioned. It seems that in order for us to have what is considered life on earth, water is a main ingredient but not so in the metaphysical world. Now look back at surah 15 when it is talking about Adams creation

1528 But when your Lord said to the angels "I am verily going to create a human being from fermented clay dried tingling hard;

1529 And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, bow before him in homage;"

Here it states that first Adam was fashioned from clay and then his spirit was given to him, before he was to be bowed to by the Angels and Iblis. Do you see what is missing in this creation process compared to the one mentioned in 327-9? There is an absence of both water and the nafs or senses. It makes sense that the nafs are unnecessary in the metaphysical world as our ego and senses often act as a hindrance to us while on earth when we try and stay true to Gods will. Basically the nafs are a tool specific to this world and die along with the body when we leave, yet of course the spirit, which accompanies us in this world returns to the next. It also appears that water is not necessary for life in the metaphysical world when we study the above verses. Now keeping that in mind let us look at how Iblis was created

1527 As We fashioned jinns before from intense radiated heat.
And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.
And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire.
And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

Iblis, who we know was a Jinn, was fashioned from smokeless fire or scorching wind etc and before Adam. It would not be unreasonable to assume that he too had a spirit given to him as it appears to be essential for all conscious beings in the metaphysical world. Now both Jinns and Humans while in a metaphysical form were combined of an initial essence of fire and clay respectively, then given a spirit, perhaps a consciousness but something more had to be added when they made the transition to the material world or Earth. Consider the following verses

235 And We said to Adam "Both you and your spouse live in the Garden, eat freely to your fill wherever you like, but approach not this tree or you will become transgressors.

236 Then the Shait?n (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."

237 Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

238 We said Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

In 235-38 it is clear that both men and jinn were then sent to earth, thus both would need the requirements to exist in the earthly realm, namely water and nafs. Now look back to 327-9 where it is saying that all the offspring of Adam are fashioned with water and nafs or senses. Then consider the following verses

727 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

1850 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

1851 I (All?h) made them (Ibl?s and his offspring) not to witness (nor took their help in) the creation of the heavens and the earth and not (even) their own creation, nor was I (All?h) to take the misleaders as helpers.

In the above verses it is clear that the Satan that accompanied Adam in paradise, and who was also sent to earth along with Adam, has offspring and/or a tribe. Clearly Jinn would have the same qualities as Humans, namely water and nafs and so too would their offspring. The Quran does not detail how the offspring of Jinn are formed but it would obviously fall under the same physical laws as does for humans. With water and nafs, thus Jinn would be not only alive in this world but would also be physical beings, or have a body. Now if we look at the following verses we can see that Quran says Jinn are men or at least living with men, perhaps as a race of men or as some men among all races.

726 And that persons from among men used to seek refuge with persons from among jinn, so they increased them in wrongdoing

6112 Thus have We appointed unto every prophet an adversary - devils of humankind and jinn who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord willed, they would not do so; so leave them alone with their devising;

If we take into account what I showed about how men and jinn were created, as well as the difference between this world and the metaphysical world, and what constitutes life in these worlds, combined with 726 and 6112, it would seem that Jinn could be very much alive with us here on earth and very well look like men, you or I. In 726 it says persons among jinn, that is men who are jinn. And in 6112 Allah is calling some men devils.

Finally I just wanted to point out that if both Adam and Iblis had spirit in the metaphysical world and Iblis was able to rebel against God, then it must be spirit that contains the capacity for free will or free choice. The nafs, which is only present in the earthly realm constitutes our senses and emotions. Look at the following verse.

4172 The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshiping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.

From the above verse we can see that even Angels can disdain from serving God. The Angels that are closest to God would never do this. Angels too have spirit and thus have free will or free choice. And we can see from the following verses that Angels also must appear in a physical form when they come to Earth. Perhaps while here they must also be composed of water and contain nafs.

1169 Our angels came to Abraham with good news, and said "Peace on you. "Peace on you too," said Abraham, and hastened to bring a roasted calf.

1170 When they did not stretch their hands towards it he became suspicious and afraid of them. They said "Do not be afraid. We have been sent to the people of Lot."

1177 So when Our angels came to Lot, he grieved for them, and felt powerless to help them, and said "This is a day of sorrow.

1917 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh , and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.

In 1169 and 70 Abraham mistakes angels for men and tries to feed them. And in the story of Lot, the people of his city came looking for the Angles thinking they were attractive men. And in 1917 Gabriel is in the form of a man in ALL respects when he comes to Mary. Also in the following verses we see more mention of Angels being physical or men on earth.

69 Had we appointed him (Our messenger) an angel, We assuredly had made him (as) a man (that he might speak to men); and (thus) obscured for them (the truth) they (now) obscure.

1795 Say "If angels had peopled the earth and walked about in peace and quiet, We would surely have sent to them an angel as messenger.

4360 If We pleased We could have put angels in place of you as trustees on the earth.

In the above verses it is clear that even angels who possess a spirit would not only be men on earth but also if Allah willed he could have placed them as trustees here instead of men and jinn. I believe it is clear that jinns are far more than just a metaphor for our egos or nafs. First, our nafs or senses are clearly stated as something that God fashions us with when we are in the earthly realm. Jinn existed outside that realm. Second we can see that water only plays a part in our creation in this world yet we were conscious and with free choice in the metaphysical realm. In other words we had spirit. And since both Iblis and Adam were cast onto earth together and many verses state that jinn are of men, I think we have to rethink the idea of what Jinn are especially within this reformist movement. Arnold's ideas are good but I think he missed a few important points which hopefully I made clear in this post. I personally believe that Jinn are mortal on this earth and thus would also be composed of the same things that all living things are composed of while here. Perhaps Jinn are a race of people or are people among all races as I have stated earlier. They certainly are not invisible demons that live in holes and eat human feces as many hadith Muslims believe, and I don't think that they are simply a metaphor for our 'fiery side'.

Please pick apart my post and let me know what you think. Their is much more that I can add to this later.

Peace everyone.

humandesign

Amin74,

I have just gone through what you have said in detail. Thats rather interesting - what you have highlighted.

Currently I am interested in the links between the Torah and Gospel and Quran etc. I went to the library to find a Bible to loan out however - I did not find any on teh shelf - instead I found this interesting book - which claims to talks to both Muslims, Christians and Jews using arcehological evidence to look at historical references to Biblical stories. Personally I feel it has a Jewish leaning. But anyhow here are some intriguing points presented in the book

That paradise is an actual physical named place on earth which literally had all the riches - but Adam(or mankind) in search of the unknown went looking beyond his territory and to the top of some mountain where he met with God and so that was when he fell and God uttered the words to him

Go down, all of you, from hence As in go down from off the mountain.

That archeological evidence from the time of adam suggests that there were pagan worshippers at that time because many human skulls were found (pertaining to ancestral worship)

That at teh time of adam - it was not just one Adam and Eve - but communities of people in existence.

The author claims that after Adam's downfall is when civilisation started up whereas before - the humans were raw, hunter/gatherers etc. It is with the onset of civilisation that began the pursuit for large scale power.war etc.

The book does not try to justify religion - just more of a historical account of the Biblical stories. I am jsut about half way through the book at the moment - if anythng else comes significant and relevant I'll let you know.

But I have some questions on my mind - is it possible that if it were the case that mankind were already on earth when all of the stories have taken place - then wouldn't it be concievable that it was evolution taking place with the downfall of Adam (such as according to the Quran - Adam' shame was exposed when he went to the the tree and he sought to cover himself with leaves (i.e clothing - he lost the abudant hair covering his body that we see typical of all other primates in this age) - perhaps this is consitent with the descriptions of the generational developments that are described in the Quran - that you have highlighted??

All animals have agression - yet is there any reference to their vulnerability to the influence of satan - as we have modern day stories of dogs and animals suddenly turning on their owners. What category to monkeys/apes/gorillas and chimpanzees fall under - as surely they do have a consciousness and are able to laern and understand and communicate via visual language methods (though not yet able in human speech). Would they also have vulnerabilities to satan?? - as I have seen on tv. communities of chimps/turning on one chimp and beating it to death.

humandesign

the book itself - I forgot to give it's details

The lost testament From eden to exile the 5000 year history of the people of the Bible

by David Rohl.

arnoldyasin

House M.D. and Arnold,

So 2130 and 2445 tell us what is considered a living thing on Earth. I pasted them below.

2130
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

2445
And Allah has created from water every living creature so of them is that which walks upon its belly, and of them is that which walks upon two feet, and of them is that which walks upon four; Allah creates what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.

It is clear from these verses that living things on Earth are composed of water, but it never mentions water when it speaks of the creation of Adam the first man. At least that I have found so far. Look at these examples. These verses are all talking about Adams creation, the first man.

Salaam Amin,

Although I have not a lot of time to discuss and also I have discussed almost all of these verses in my articles and essays, so I advice to go through them again, I do want to point out one thing.

You say water is not mentioned with Adam, but clay is a mixture of water and minerals.....

Amin74

Salam Arnold,

I have gone through your articles and this was my response to that, however I need more feedback from others on what I have posted in order for us to get to the bottom of this...God willing if it is possible.

You say water is not mentioned with Adam, but clay is a mixture of water and minerals.....

I have considered this which is why this is still a process of understanding. However regarding verse 2445 which states
And Allah has created from water every living creature so of them is that which walks upon its belly, and of them is that which walks upon two feet, and of them is that which walks upon four; Allah creates what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.

We have to consider that plants are also living as they too contain water yet they don't walk on twos, fours or crawl on their belly. By verse 2445 definition of life we couldn't consider plants alive so we really must reconsider what constitutes life both here and in the hereafter. The 2 verses you quoted above are not enough to go on to fully understand this which is why I posted my last post.

One thing we can not disregard is that divine revelation is also a large part of human experience. This is the method that all the scriptures were revealed to man through. This real human experience of divine revelation transcends the mind or senses or nafs. It is what created these things. It is clear from verse 1529 "And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, bow before him in homage;" that the spirit is fashioned before the senses and mind. Especially when we compare it with these verses that I posted earlier.

327 Who made all things He created excellent; and first fashioned man from clay,

328 Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation.

329 Then proportioned and breathed into him of His spirit, and gave you the senses of hearing, sight and feeling. And yet how little are the thanks you offer!

The spirit is separate from the senses or a separate consciousness. We must not place the senses on a level which they are not. The spirit is that part of us which is eternal compared to the mind and senses which are finite and have limits. Where the mind ends, the spirit does not. I believe this is the true essence of Islam or submission. For true worship in it's purest form comes when the mind surrenders completely and allows the spirit to do the worshiping. Obviously the mind cannot grasp God, but the spirit may for it is the spirit that will be drawn close to God in the end while the mind and senses will die with the body.

However it also seems that without the mind and senses their is still life as we can see from Adams creation when Iblis refused to prostrate. Even without nafs their exists a dynamic personality or consciousness which is where, I believe, the capacity for free will lies. If walking on 2 or 4 legs or crawling on the belly combined with water are all that constitute life than first, like I mentioned before, plants would not be considered living and second, our physical deaths would mean an end to our lives which Allah clearly says is not the case. Consciousness transcends physical death or the end of our physical life.

Also I made my case using Angels for my argument which I would also appreciate a comment on. Arnold tends to believe that Angels are just forces of nature which always follow God but look at these verses. One I already posted above.

3372 - We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

4172 The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshiping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.

The forces of nature described in 3372 do not have choice but in 4172 Allah makes a clear distinction between his Angels. There are those that are near him which do not disdain and this would mean as opposed to those that would disdain or be far from God. Allah is telling us that Angels have free choice. They could not be natures forces blindly following God without question. We could also refer to "I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society."

A dispute needs free choice. This dispute happened before Adam. This is consciousness in it's highest form existing long before we hand minds to imagine it.

Life is not only water and legs or a belly to crawl on. As seen above it is the senses and the spirit as well. Arnold's argument that Jinn and angles are natural or psychic forces depends a lot on this argument but it falls short. He forgets the dynamic personality of the roh or spirit.

I also wanted to point out again the verses on Jinn

726 And that persons from among men used to seek refuge with persons from among jinn, so they increased them in wrongdoing

Below is an explanation of that verse

http//i66.photobucket.com/albums/h246/Ali74/Photos1/clip_image002.jpg

The Jinn in this verse are without a doubt men.

Finally the verse which this thread was started about

Qur?aan 6130
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive Messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, ?We bear witness against ourselves.? They were totally preoccupied with the worldy life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.

As I pointed out in my last post Angels are sent as messenger and they come as men, not natural forces.