Washing and wudu in the quran?
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what makes simple's research poor in comparison to research conducted by any of the rest of us?
you said why? when? in this thread?
By being poorly researched (ignoring grammar and cross-referencing) and poorly presented (not broken down, making it difficult to verify).
Ideologically speaking, I have no objection to an alternative. My understanding is dynamic, not static.
what does "better researched" mean?
Googled definition of "research" systematic investigation to establish facts.
If you or simple feel there was a systematic approach, feel free to enlighten us.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14407.msg144113#msg144113
Some quotes from a grammer expert.
Salaam Elke, Anwar...All
I do not think grammar was derived from the qur'aan nor confirmed by it. Arabic grammar as we were taught is more complicted than that of the qur'aan. Example is the dual rule, which is hardly recognized in the qur'aan, or the definition of plurals as human and non human. And most important the existance in the qur'aan of the specific feminine, contrary to linguistics rules of all languages, including Arabic.
Salaam warner
What would be my "reference" to check those errors? Maybe the error is in Seibawaih's understanding of the grammar of the Quran, or maybe the Quran was revealed in the spoken language (no strict grammar) and hence it was arabic (clear, undrstandable). Read this
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/language.htmThe meaning will not change. These are the kind of "errors" we use in the spoken Arabic no case ending; no dual verbs or adjectives (and sometimes no dual nouns); sound plural is commonly in the accusative/genetive , moving from the 1st person to the 3rd person...
I never thought of this before I read Ayman's article, but I am more inclined to believe that the Quran was revealed in the spoken language, and was understood; until Sibawaih complicated everything
Seems Br. Ayman has already been there
I never thought of this before I read Ayman's article
All the best Br's.
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thanks for the info simple.
So for sake of argument, let's say Quran has no solid grammar rules, that's fine with me, but if one is translating with no reference to grammar, why not state so?
Why are you seemingly so reluctant to mention "the following translation does not work within conventional Arabic grammar rules and does not use cross referencing" (or something similar) when you post a "translation"? I dont understand your determination to find a more correct translation on the one hand, yet neglect or fail to mention a rigorous methodology on the other hand.
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i agree with ayaani,
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful...pikthall
other translation use
when ye prepare for prayer. ali
When you are about to pray. asaddoes anyone know if 'when you rise up' is a good translation...could it mean when you arise in the morning only? i cant speak a lip of arabic.
i remember being told (from hadith) that if you had made your first wudu of the day and put on socks (some say only leather) then you only needed to wipe your socks with water on your next wudu, but the quran says 'wash your feet up to your ankles' and even sunni will attest that no hadith can supercede an aya, but still its done. i do it even though i know it makes a hypocrite out of me but 'Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty' and taking off and on your socks throughout the day proves a small nuissance. perchance i should change. what do you guys do?
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i agree with ayaani,
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful...pikthall
other translation use
when ye prepare for prayer. ali
When you are about to pray. asaddoes anyone know if 'when you rise up' is a good translation...could it mean when you arise in the morning only? i cant speak a lip of arabic.
i remember being told (from hadith) that if you had made your first wudu of the day and put on socks (some say only leather) then you only needed to wipe your socks with water on your next wudu, but the quran says 'wash your feet up to your ankles' and even sunni will attest that no hadith can supercede an aya, but still its done. i do it even though i know it makes a hypocrite out of me but 'Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty' and taking off and on your socks throughout the day proves a small nuissance. perchance i should change. what do you guys do?
I have sometimes thought why stand up!
good you brought it up.
in lanes the root is Qam not Qama.
and it says "to take/ eat/ devour something"
vow!
page 2003.
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peace,
does anyone know if 'when you rise up' is a good translation...could it mean when you arise in the morning only? i cant speak a lip of arabic.
Not knowing Arabic will only hold you back in some cases, but since there are tools available online like never before, this can be minimised. See www.studyquran.org where you will find a link to an online word for word translation (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Quran_ArabicEnglish_WordforWord_Translation.htm / http//www.quraninenglish.com/cgi-local/pages.pl?/contents). Alternatively, you may wish to use http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm and find the root in that specific form and see its other usage. Use the "which root is being used?" as a starting point. If no luck, see Qaf-Waw-Miim.
in lanes the root is Qam not Qama.
and it says "to take/ eat/ devour something"
Firstly, who said the root is "qama"? And by saying the root is "qam" I assume you mean Qaf-Alif-Miim. (often the Waw/Alif/Ya are interchanged depending on how the lexicographer classifies it)
Also, you said it was in Lane page 2003. Do you mean this page of Lane http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000288.pdf ?
If so, where exactly?After you clarify the above, is your suggested translation "O you who believe, if you eat to the counsel..." ?
When you post, please bear in mind rule 2 of the forum rules
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0 -
Dear Waqas,
When you post, please bear in mind rule 2 of the forum rules
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0whether i follow you rules or i don't is my right- but you can ban me if you or your bosses think i am breaking too many of them.
Thanks. confused
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as far as i recall every time "show us your proof if you are truthful" is used it is in reference to a claim by non believers... and while you may not always agree with what simple may say i think it's far fetched to claim unbelief on his part
that's the problem i have with the verse chopping and using verses against eachother as weapons... it's neither fair nor accurate
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Speaking of far fetched, I did not imply/claim unbelief on his part P
However, by its nature of usage in AQ, the phrase "show us your proof if you are truthful" is usually in response to a claim by non believers, I will give you that.
Bringing proof/burhan is the point, and so far I've seen very little to none from 'simple'.
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when he is providing what he feels are valid translations what would constitute proof for you?
Speaking of far fetched, I did not imply/claim unbelief on his part
but you did use a phrasing that is consistently used in quran against non believers, that is why i am concerned... i don't see throwing around "show us your proof" as being very constructive
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i see it that 56 clearly refers to washing with water (ideally) before prayer (which can involve bowing, prostrating, and dhikr).
2277 and other ayat refer, as i see it, to physical motions to be done in prayer. this is, after all, a deen. a religion for (and of) life, a system, a path that is to be walked, not simply looked at.
i respect others' inclinations towards more abstract interpretations of these verses, but i incline towards the literal on this point.Peace,
Respectfully.I agree with you.
I mean, that's why there's more water on Earth then dry soil. So no one can complain, that he or she cannot wash himself or herself.I believe that washing is literal because God mentions specific parts of the body. When you get angry, it's all in the brain, the anger and hate start in the brain so how can one wash brain, right? Yeah, you can stop being angry and hateful but God tells us in 56 how to wash ourselves to perform the prayer. It's about obediance.
Peace.
