This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real
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Lol really? i've changed? well maybe a bit. But i still like you. ;D ;D ;D ;D
You're welcome. It's nice if i could make you laugh. hehe ;D
Ok Back to business.
About the Abraham, did i mentioned dream at that paragraph? Nope. Ok it's a bit out of topic on that paragraph. I'm just telling my understanding about the value of life and facing the fear of anything out of ordinary and what the story of Abraham impacts on this. Not how Abraham got that command to sacrifice his son (i.e by dream or whatever). I apologize for the out of topic paragraph. P
but for now as far as I am concerned the specific details of it don't matter to me as I am trying to live my life here on earth..
May God Bless you with your normal life on earth my dear HD ) ) )
Again it shows how you are so desparate to understand things that are so beyond
Am i looked desperate? No, I think excited is the word (maybe too excited P). And i like to share my thoughts as much as possible. Just to prepare myself and give myself experiences (experience being flamed by you guys? P P ;D ;D).
Dear 2Pac,
I personally don't believe when you sleep you goto heaven i.e the final abode after this life. But I personally do believe it is another dimension that is part of Gods creation.
I agree with you on this too. Like commented previously. That is a (so called) consensus realm that is protected. Don't know how it could be penetrated. So in sleep maybe you can't just go inside it. Maybe heaven is all that dimension. Maybe the consensus realm is the Jannah(the park)?
All in all it might be a personal wahi or maybe it's a different world i don't know.
Peace out handshake
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2Pac - Notts - thankyou so much ofr that verse for i see how it supports me so much in my reasoning.
Fadhli Note how in the verse
The Qur'an, chapter 17 (Al-Isra), verse 1 ? Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).?
It indicates he was taken by God's choice - not that he was trying to find something out there for himself. He was instead taken by it and also note how he was specicly blessed for this downloading business of the Quran - otherwise it would not be safe for him to travel and do OBE... the prophet's precincts were blessed specificly for this to happen
And secondly some people do OBE without wanting to - as in my case - I was too scared to close my eyes even because thats when my third eye would start vibrating even though wasn't asleep. My releif came instantly when I consciously turned to God alone and in every way quit with the path of new ageist (yet non-OBE) path that I was on. Since then I feel I am also a better person - restored to my own natural morality - the ways that I was inclined before and am easily able to see the error of nyt behaviours with others which I was unable to see before. My health is also so much better. Praise be to God alone.
I never doubted the diviinity of the Quran coming through via such a means as the OBE though.....just that I do not see it prescribed in the Quran for people to follow as a means to enlightenment. Indeed I do not think it safe for when it has not been authorised by God in the Quran and as would appear a person has not been divinely blessed/chosen to do so already.
I know the Quran talks of meditation throughout the night and specificly addresses 'the cloaked one' to do this - but I think it may be in reference to the prophet being reqested to do that in order to download the Quran.
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Just wanna add some pic on William Buhlmann theory on this this multidimension universe
http//www.astralinfo.org/images/multidimensioncoloreduniversepagephoto.jpg
It indicates he was taken by God's choice - not that he was trying to find something out there for himself. He was instead taken by it and also note how he was specicly blessed for this downloading business of the Quran - otherwise it would not be safe for him to travel and do OBE... the prophet's precincts were blessed specificly for this to happen
I dunno HD. I kinda disagree with the idea of prophets are specially blessed and we are not. I think all of us are equal Humans. Prophets are prophets. An example of servant of God. An example of what a human that is blessed by God (up to that extend) can do.
Peace gtg. handshake
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Fadhli - you said
Even our lives. It's valuable to us right? would you give it to God if somehow he requested it? What would you do? (refer to Abraham and his son story). If you face this kind of thing (anything out of ordinary). Would you run away? Or would you face it? Would you die because of it? even if you die, Would it really matter? In the end we still return to our Creator. I'm not telling you to become suicidal like stabbing yourselves. But think about it. There is a difference between purposely dying because you can't stand living and dying for the cause of God or struggling to achieve something for your own purpose.
What I understood by your reference to Abraham is that if I were placed with fear of my life would I give in to it for the sake of God or would I run away from it because I valued my life over submitting to God's plan?
I thought you were suggesting that I feared for my life. This is why I think you try to mention about Abraham - because you were thinking that - look at him - he was prepared to give up his life for God - but I think you were missing the point of the story which was not to do stupid things like sacrificing our lives without there being a dire earthly need for it. And I spoke about the dream to try to enlighten you abtou the context so that you may understand how Abraham was wrong in trying to sacrifice his son and that's the real moral of the story.
So in that contaext it woudl be wrong to sacrifice your life for the unknown - when you have not identified the result it will definitely bring.
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Fadhli - you both misquote me and the Quran- The prophet was blessed for the act of performing his OBE's/his downloads. The verse specificly indicates this.
whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs
I have no idea whether you have been blessed for such purposes - but my nearest feeling is that you have not been blessed and it is therefore dangerous.
Passing on the message in the form of truths is the cability of all - according to their aptitude - I don't disagree with that.
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2Pac - Notts - thankyou so much ofr that verse for i see how it supports me so much in my reasoning.
Your welcome. By the way you male or female?
It indicates he was taken by God's choice - not that he was trying to find something out there for himself. He was instead taken by it and also note how he was specicly blessed for this downloading business of the Quran - otherwise it would not be safe for him to travel and do OBE... the prophet's precincts were blessed specificly for this to happen
I disagree with this im afraid. Note how God says He took his SERVANT and not MESSENGER/PROPHET. This emphasises from God in my opinion it's not just exclusive to Prophets/Messengers but any of his servants or even non servants as there isn't a verse or implication that only servants can OBE.
Here's more verses
And He it is Who takes your souls at night (in sleep), and He knows what you acquire in the day{660}
And one of His signs is your sleeping and your seeking of His grace by night and (by) day; most surely there are signs in this for a people who would hear. {3023}
Notice how God says one of the signs is sleeping. How is it a sign?God says nature is a sign too...why?Because it is in order and has laws and purposes and has clues to show an amazing creator behind it. Am I exaggerating by saying sleep has a purpose other than biological reasons? If we didn't have dreams then I wouldn't have a point but we do have dreams and OBE's so there is a purpose behind it all.
PEACE
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Fadhli,
I was just looking for more info about the potential dangers of OOBE and came across the following - funnily it appears to say what I have been trying to say to you too. I know it speaks form a Biblic stance with references to Bible - but I think the smilarities in terms of the message is quite uncanny
Taken from http//www.allabouttheoccult.org/out-of-body-experience.htm
(I have amlgamated information from it's various pages below)
Out of Body Experience - What is it?
An "out of body experience" (OBE) can be defined as the process of transiently separating the consciousness (spirit) from the physical body, such that the person and world are observed from outside of the body. OBE's are also known as astral projections. There are several ways people perceive an out of body experience, including dreams, daydreams, and memories. People have reported having out of body experiences while under the influence of drugs or induced by some sort of trauma, as well as near death experiences. Astral projection is taught through books, the internet, and religious techniques. An out of body experience is said to be clearer than a dream or daydream. Those who practice astral projections claim that their senses are enhanced, allowing them to see and feel with more clarity and without physical constraint. The origins of out of body experiences are unknown. However, OBE's have been practiced for many years in several different cultures. The New Age Movement is widely known for promoting and using this practice.Out of Body Experience - Why Do People Seek It?
Out of body experiences are sought after by those who desire knowledge or power in the spiritual realm, endeavor to help people, are curious, or want to be entertained. In some cases, people actually seek OBE's to cause harm to others. For the most part, an out of body experience is desired for a spiritual reason, such as reaching a higher level of consciousness or enlightenment.Out of Body Experience - What Does the Bible Teach Us?
According to some, out of body experiences are said to be justified in the Bible, citing several scriptures. Unfortunately, those interpretations have been taken out of context or they fail to address the culture of that time. In the Bible, an out of body experience is regarded as an occult practice. The greatest evidence against OBE is that God's people didn't "perform" them. In all of the scriptures mentioning "in the spirit" or "caught up in the spirit," the people didn't seek to have an out of body experience. Instead, God came to specific people, revealing specific things for a specific purpose. These events occurred to glorify God and reveal His love for His people. The people did not seek to have an out of body experience for personal gain or to get clarity about the world or God.Out of Body Experience - Is There Potential Harm?
People may argue that there's no harm in having an out of body experience. However, in the Bible, it's clear that we are not to participate in occult practices. Out of the body experiences were not part of the teachings of God. Out of body experiences could be defined as divination, sorcery, interpreting of omens, engaging in witchcraft, or casting spells. Those who perform OBE may be referred to as mediums or spiritists. Overall, these practices are called detestable in the eyes of God (Deuteronomy 189-11, Galatians 519-26, and 2 Chronicles 336). As a result, there could also be emotional, physical, mental, and/or spiritual harm associated with OBE practices. Since OBE is not condoned by God, it would lead us to believe that there is another force behind these phenomena. While having an out of body experience, one should keep in mind that we are to be prepared for action, self-controlled, set on the hope given to us, obedient, and not conform to our evil desires (1 Peter 113). Can this happen if we separate ourselves from our body?Christian out of body experiences - Is it possible?
It's not always easy to make a clear distinction between what is a Christian thing to do or not do with our lives. Definitely there are some issues that are on one side or the other and then, as in this case, there are those that are less easily categorized. Out of body experiences certainly exist and none can deny the blatant fact of such possibilities; the only question is whether or not this is one of those activities that Christians should not participate in.
As humans, it is our natural inclination to know more than we do and to search beyond our limits for that attractive knowledge and information. The earliest example of this instinct is documented in the Bible, in Genesis 34-6 "'You will not surely die,' the serpent said to the woman. 'For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."Eve had that inner desire to become more familiar with things otherwise unfamiliar to her and to delve into reaches deeper than her normal expanse of wisdom. God had given her all she needed and yet she was confident that her curiosity was worth pursuing. And as the rest of the verses conclude, bad things followed when Eve and Adam succumbed to the serpent's temptations.
Out of body experiences can be compared to the fruit in the garden. They promise a good time, an air of experience and knowledge, a sense of deeper accomplishment, arrival, contentment, and solace. An interesting note to make is the fact that Eve would not have reached the level of understanding and knowledge without the enticements of the devil. The same is true with such things as out of body experiences because it is necessary to realize that the hunger and thirst for more eye-opening experiences stem from the devil as well.
The reason for this is as follows. God wants to protect us and give us only what we need. He has promised in the Bible to provide everything we ever need-like Eve and Adam had all they truly needed. Anything that we seek for is a sign that we are striving for what He does not deem necessary in our lives. If it were necessary, he would have given it to us already. An out of body experience is only Satan's lie to us that there is something else in life we need, but that God has failed to supply us with it. We can honestly believe that God never changes. He has promised "And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 419). We will quickly discern the temptation as a lie and turn from it.
God never meant for us to enter into other realms or become familiar with the spirit world connected to out of body experiences. He gave us minds to study His words and use logic in pursuing His will for our lives; to ignore such privileges and to reach in other directions for knowledge and feelings and insights we were never meant to take hold of is, in essence, to reach for the forbidden fruit. And that, my friend, is definitely not a Christian action!
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humandesign the info you have posted is very biased and incorrect. First of all it says we shouldn't have a part in the occult - by simple definition occult is the unseen or hidden and we are told to believe in the unseen from God in the Quran. Labelling of certain practices i.e OBE as occult distorts and hinders people from the truth of the matter so we should look at the practice and see if it is against the quran, after all the quran is the criteria - Al Furqan. Hence why it would be beneficial to quote quranic verses so we can delve further into the matter and explore options to see the light of things.
PEACE
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2Pac - Notts -
I am female but I don't worry about it when people just assume that I am male.
Yes we are all servants - but lets not worry about the type of character or person that deserves such blessing - that is detracting from the message. I never said that only prophets can be endowed with that ability. That was something Fadhli was imposing on me to have said. As I have said we are all messengers when we are trying to rely a message of truth..
My point is concerned with God choosing and blessing (protecting) who is to OBE and who is not - not the individuals themselves choosing it upon themselves. Fadhli said he is trying to OOBE but as of failing which to me was indicative of his own desires wanting to overide the will of God. That's why I said I was not feeling him to be blessed for it. But who knows - God may change that if He so wished.
But my point remains - God needs to bless that person before they travel there otherwise it could prove dangerous from a spiritual perspective - and that is just from my personal expereince.
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If Satan and the devil be a force outside of us - forming part of the unseen - do we positivly engage with that too? We can beleive in their existence but do we begin to actively engage with that?
I draw on personal experience in the main to present what I am saying and I have only used other literature to show the common sense in wisdom.
But I very much agree it will be good to explore further what the Quran says about such pursuits.
But I'm not going to go looking for this infomation because I have come to a resolution through my own senses. As I am reading the Quran - I am sure to come accross relevent references - if they be there.
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2Pac
You said If we didn't have dreams then I wouldn't have a point but we do have dreams and OBE's so there is a purpose behind it all.
Dreams are natural - and therefore God given - indeed it would seem we are blesssed for it because they happen without our trying to dream. But the manipulative part is where you also get the people trying to control their dreams.
The difference with OOBE's is that one is actively trying to get there - isn't that very unnatural?
I don't have a problem with our dreams having meaningful content.
Oh, I'm starting to get tired of this common problem of being categorised in to having belived somehting that I have not said about. (not fadhli)
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2Pac
You said If we didn't have dreams then I wouldn't have a point but we do have dreams and OBE's so there is a purpose behind it all.
Dreams are natural - and therefore God given - indeed it would seem we are blesssed for it because they happen without our trying to dream. But the manipulative part is where you also get the people trying to control their dreams.
The difference with OOBE's is that one is actively trying to get there - isn't that very unnatural?
I don't have a problem with our dreams having meaningful content.
Oh, I'm starting to get tired of this common problem of being categorised in to having belived somehting that I have not said about. (not fadhli)
My bad if you didn't imply only Prophets have that ability. But going onto your point then going by your logic we shouldn't goto the gym as we are ACTIVELY trying to build a fit body by fighting against it and this is unnatural too don't you think? We should just naturally let our bodies suffer from no exercise. Do you see my point?
In my opinion just like weight training its not for everyone to experience, same thing with OBE its not for everyone to experience but that don't mean you can't experience other gifts of life from God.
PEACE
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It now feels you are now truly begininng to speak in the language of Fadhli (!)
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Dreams are natural - and therefore God given - indeed it would seem we are blesssed for it because they happen without our trying to dream. But the manipulative part is where you also get the people trying to control their dreams.
IYO, how/why is this wrong? Is manipulation of the sort where someone "reforms" something like land e.g. say terraforming conceptually/theoretically wrong? In which sense? Haram or wrong in the quran or some other ethics/criterion?
The difference with OOBE's is that one is actively trying to get there - isn't that very unnatural?
How? When one says natural/unnatural, then one has to define and give boundaries to such things, of course with valid justification. Was primitive man natural or unnatural? Is cooking with fire unnatural? Is taking synthetic or even natural medicine unnatural? Is trying to make Dubai a green city unnatural? Or like 2Pac's question etc. Consider that in these types of questions, it invariably is the usage of such things/concepts that are questioned, not the fact that they exist. I recently had a discussion about natural vs. unnatural where someone was ranting about women straightening their hair to be a sin against nature or in other words, unnatural. Wonder if the guy just liked curly hair.
As far as delving in the "supernatural" or even new ageism goes, one might not like it... like I rant about people wanting to ride in roller coasters, shark dive or develop RPG hybrids to the detriment of all but I wouldn't go so far as to call it unnatural? Whether it's wrong or not might then be defined by a valid criterion that both parties accept or it just becomes a case of why should I care what your criterion is, mine is much better and so on.
I would think there would be different theories/camps about natural vs. unnatural...e.g. those that arbitrarily or not define/categorise it according to different criteria and maintain it should not be touched on that principle might also digress into because of the harm caused it becomes unnatural (which is strange because plenty of natural things cause harm!) or those that think everything is natural and meant to be as in if it's there it's meant to be used and in some cases the latter is further defined by checks on might be potentially destructive rather than calling it unnatural and on that basis it must not be touched...
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In my personal experience it is a harmful practice - that makes it unnatural - I have nothing more to say.
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Peace HD, 2pac, and welcome SC to this thread.
Chill out HD. We're not making sides/sects here. Just discussing. You always think negatives. Just experience this thread. Nothing to be scared of.
I have said earlier that i have experienced Sleep Paralysis. To me it's something new and exciting. But check this out.
My Experience with Sleep Paralysis
See how negative thoughts can make people feel scared. I have faced the same but i feel the opposite.I also heard someone calling my name once. It felt very real. In that process. Instead of getting scared of it i tried to call it back but it just disappears. According to the book that i read it is a sign that you are in process of separating with the body. And whenever i felt like gonna float i kinda get too excited then i fall back with a short of breath. And distractions like body itch, mosquitoes, outside sound is very challenging, feeling too excited, out of focus, attachment to body. Just need to get used to it. This is a challenge that i (personally) must face to able to succeed in OBE IMHO. To conclude, if you know what you are doing or be prepared to what you gonna face, there's nothing to be scared of.
Concerning the Biblical views on OBE. Since that other dimension has unlimited possibilities, it can include messing with other people dreams, hypnotising them, controlling other people minds, dream raping, or maybe physically hurt them (scratch or whispering to do something). Think about it. Wasn't it the same like this world? killing, raping, stealing, suicide, abortion, bribery, racism, hate, destruction, earth corruption, war, magics, witchcraft and other evil stuffs? It's the same. I think this world evil deeds is much crueler than in the other world. Just because it's "felt unnatural" to us doesn't mean that it is dangerous or bad. It just our mind that fabricate it as bad. The Ego. So we have Quranic background. God always says to do good, observe the communion, contribute towards the betterment, roam around the world, see the world for ourselves. So even in that dimension, just do good, help others, explore with good intention etc. God created heaven and earth. So I suggest to apply the same laws and ethics like we have been taught from Quran in that world. And think positive, I'm sure nothing "dangerous/harmful" will happen. Think about it.
Like I said in my early post, are you trying to repeat history that has taught us?
From my observation. What you faced in your third eye experience. You felt scared. But at the same time you got stronger because you remembered God. See the conclusion? You spiritually got stronger. You found a method to make yourself stronger to face that fear. So you hold to that believe (take refuge from God). And i think it is a right thing to do. It's your personal experience and a test to make you stronger. I sincerely respect that. It teaches me some lessons too. . And for that I want to thank you.
One more advice, You always label this thing as New Ageism. I personally don't like to be labeled that way. Heck i don't even know what defines New Ageism, and i don't want to know. It's not important. It's like labelling the Free-mind forumers as Quran aloners. Or all Muslims as terrorists, or all Jews are not to be trusted or all Christians believes Trinity, or all Atheist is guaranteed hell. How do you feel if you're labeled that way? IMHO it's not a good practice. Instead of telling others not to do it, why not start from ourselves. I VOTE FOR NO LABELLING ;D
I hope you get my point. Sometimes i just assume people understand what i'm talking about (bad habit p)
Peace no hard feelings handshake
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Fadhli,
Labelling is the only way we can identify what we are talking about - it is a language for communication.
Physical exercise is a label to which belong categories of certain activities.
However if someone lableled my sitting and watching tv as exercise - I would get a knee jerk reaction, hence I would not like being lablled. Though very appropriately it could be seen as a physical exercise relative to sleeping and then sleeping could be seen as exercise relative to someone who is dead.
I was not scared of my activities that brought on the expereinces - the scary factor came when I actaully started seeing things that felt scary. I am very confident that if you ever had had the opportunity of getting to know me in person - how I live my life - you would know that I am not a negative person.
I am at this point in time reminded of the proverb where the sage points to the moon and says look at that and the idiot looks at the finger instead of the moon and does not see the beauty or magnitude to which the sage is actually pointing to. I have been already to the reasong that you are with but you have not been where I have managed to climb - yet you argue with me as if you know. The best you could say is that you remain open to the possiblity of what I am talking about.
I see your pursuits as falling in to the realm of the occult and new ageism. Please look them up to find out what they commonly allude to instead of firing blanks at me that are not inspired by knowledge.
New ageism and the occult are just the means - the vehicle that satan is using to draw up his supporters and take them away from the straight path.
We are certaily on different paths.
I am going to exit engaging in this forum - because I have said all I have to say but I do feel that my truth is being ignored.
This forum is cultured with egotism in favour of worshippping one's own desires or intellect - instead of submitting to God's will and design/system that we are supposed to be following.
Just at the point when I started engaging in discussion with you orignially - I saw a clear dream where I was busy writing away replying - but somone told me directly to read the Quran instead throughout the night. I don't know about the night part - but I do see the logic with spending my time with the Quran instead. And then I can simply pratice on the job so to speak as I live my life with those around me.
May God humble your heart enough so that you may know right from wrong before you are wronged.
P.S - I just figured earlier that when in the Quran it say O cloaked one read and meditate on the Quran throughout the night - it means that the prophet being cloaked - he is protected from other entities - that is the proper meaning of being cloaked. The verse was talking to the prophet to do the meditations - because he was protected from teh evil ones descending on him. Aswell when we are asked to recite the Quran we are requested to seek God's protection first and lets not forget how your behaviour to me has appeared to deteriorate since trying to OOBE.
I thank everyone for strengthing of my convictions by the truths presented in the Quran - of which the blind may not see.
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Peace HD,
Since you're not gonna engage with this thread anymore i'll just make it simple. (edit...sorry its a long kind of simple P P >D O0)
I agree with you at some point about labelling. Maybe i should fix my term on previous term from labelling (in general) to society/group of people labeling (without the declaration of the label). It's not important.
I was not scared of my activities that brought on the expereinces - the scary factor came when I actaully started seeing things that felt scary. I am very confident that if you ever had had the opportunity of getting to know me in person - how I live my life - you would know that I am not a negative person.
I'm sure you are HD. I apologize if i insulted you for being negative. ( '( '( '( ( Same like me. I don't talk much on my real life. Let alone talks a lot about religion. And how i live my life is different from how i think. I'm a different person too compared in this forum.
I am at this point in time reminded of the proverb where the sage points to the moon and says look at that and the idiot looks at the finger instead of the moon and does not see the beauty or magnitude to which the sage is actually pointing to. I have been already to the reasong that you are with but you have not been where I have managed to climb - yet you argue with me as if you know. The best you could say is that you remain open to the possiblity of what I am talking about.
In our last long discussion I already said that i keep it in my heart. And i do sincerely keep it in my heart. And still remembers it.
New ageism and the occult are just the means - the vehicle that satan is using to draw up his supporters and take them away from the straight path.
Seems like you really don't like anything related to what you call New Ageism. And to make it suit with your belief, you relate it with satan. So with that in mind you can just stay away from it. I think it's no different with other situations such as, I don't like sorcery so i relate it with satan so i just stay away from it. It's just a matter of belief. One would reason an argument to make sure it suits its belief. Probably an approximation of truth but i think it's not the totality of the truth.
I'm not sure about satan though. it might be in a form of an independent creature, a dependent (on hosts like humans) creature, or a negative/rebellious/ego side of us. There's a lot of possibilities on either forms it is also possible that it is all of that forms. God knows best. I'd like to remain neutral on this satan definition. In other words not to conclude it into something (yet?). I just consider it as nature rather than an intelligent form for now. So rather than thinking what satan would do or look like, i rather focus my thinking to anything relating to God and His signs.
...in favour of worshippping one's own desires or intellect ....
I agree with this statement (only ;D). too much debating and quarrellings, calling names makes me feel distant with God because of focusing too much on this so called worldly "fun and games". And i hope you are not seriously labeling this forum as a bad thing. Because for me this forum, all the topics that is stored inside here is a gem to others who is seeking God's path. A lot of wisdoms and knowledges has been recorded here. Even if there might be some incorrect statements inside, there will always be someone who will come and re correct it.
I'd like to thank you for your replies and make this thread more interesting. Indeed our path is different. But our ending in this world is the same.
Peaces handshake
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In my personal experience it is a harmful practice - that makes it unnatural - I have nothing more to say.
The harmful ---> unnatural is a jump. Just wanted to know why, but alright.
If going by personal experience, man is usually destructive to the detriment of his own self/soul and working towards betterment is an up-hill struggle. Striving for something one is not, doesn't have or wants to experience doesn't mean it's natural or unnatural, its just what it is. Whether it's wrong or not then remains to be decided depending on which criterion we use but unnatural...that's different. The saying what comes naturally is a double edged sword, dangerous in some situations but okay in others.