Does the Quran prohibit all types of economical "Interest"?
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Peace everyone
Lately i have been reflecting upon the economical verses of the Quran, but i have a few unansweared questions. As you all know, almost all banks in Europe and US give us interest on the money we keep in our accounts. And the Quran prohibits interest, but does it prohibit interests that are only taken from us, or does it prohibit interest that is given to us also? By other words does the Quran only prohibits interests taken from us when we for example get loans, or does it also prohibit interest when we get interest on the money we have in our account?
I have an account where i get a little bit over 1% interests each year for the money i save in it. If all interests are unqurnanic i want to take out all money from the bank. Do you guys use banks?
Observation If you scroll down to the mid-pages of the article about Quran in free-minds, the author says that
The Quran prohibits interest charged to the poor and disadvantaged, not interest per se
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/economy/econsystem.htmWhat about funds? if funds has nothing to do with "interest", i want to invest my money in funds.
All these questions and observings make me confused. I will be very thankful if people can answears this questions above and share any other opinion about "interest" in quran.
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Peace,
what do you mean by fiat money? And do you think investing in funds is okey according to Quranic?
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peace,
The above link explains it.
To clarify, when I said "non issue" I didn't mean it's ok, I meant since 'fiat money' is not endorsed by AQ, then receiving interest on such money is inherently problematic to begin with.
When you say funds, what do you mean exactly? There are past threads discussing various investments.
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Peace wakas
i should have written mutual funds. because that was what i meant by funds, I want to invest in mutual funds. I heard some of the money in the mutual funds go to enviromental cases. I am supporter of environment, therefore i thought it could be a good deed, and also i can make some cash D Therefore i want your opinion since you study the quran much. Do you think it's accepted according to AQ to invest in a mutual fund?
Mutual fund definition
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_fundHei Nadeem. Hvordan g?r det? Lenge siden sist. Takk for svar. Har ikke h?rt fra deg p? lenge. Har du glemt meg helt eller? Jeg kunne fors?vidt ha kontaktet deg jeg og. Men det var jeg som sendte deg en mail sist
Vet du om koranen tillater at vi investerer i fond? Hva med Bsu konto? Eller er all slags renter ikke akkseptert?
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Hei David,
Hei Nadeem. Hvordan g?r det? Lenge siden sist. Takk for svar. Har ikke h?rt fra deg p? lenge. Har du glemt meg helt eller? Jeg kunne fors?vidt ha kontaktet deg jeg og. Men det var jeg som sendte deg en mail sist Wink
Vet du om koranen tillater at vi investerer i fond? Hva med Bsu konto? Eller er all slags renter ikke akkseptert?
Her g?r det bra, min venn. H?per du gj?r det minst like bra!
Du vil ikke tro det, men jeg har faktisk tenkt p? deg hver eneste dag, fordi jeg har jobbet med et prosjekt jeg gjerne vil ha deg med p?. Grunnen til at jeg ikke har kontaktet deg enda er fordi at jeg ikke har gjort ferdig oppsettet p? prosjektet enda. Jeg har ogs? kommet i kontakt med en annen gutt fra oslo omr?de, som tror p? Koranen alene. Kanskje vi tre kunne m?tes en gang?
Jeg er veldig d?rlig n?r det gjelder ?konomi og Koranen. ?konomi forst?r jeg enda mindre av. Det er ordet riba som er sentralt her. Kanskje du finner noe svar i disse lenkene
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000189.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000190.pdfMed vennlig hilsen,
Nadeem
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peace David,
If it's a general mutual fund, I believe that means they can invest in anything, including arms companies, gambling companies etc. There are specific ethical funds/investments, in the UK at least, so if you want to go down this route, that's your best option.
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Peace Nadeem
Im doing terrific. I see. That sounds great. Actually i have been writing lately and studied writing techniques in my school. I am taking a course in my school were we learn about history and get the opportunity to write articles, novels and other texts. So if it is a writing project, i'll join But since i am very busy i don't have time for any big projects at the moment. Writing don't take much time for me, and i could do it at my home. I want to meet you, send me a mail when you have time and we can set dates.
Peace Wakas
I am planning to invest in a mutual fund that supports environmental issues. So i will invest the money there, and the money will work for me. for instance if i invest 1000 dollars in 1 year, with "interests", i will probably get 3% interest on it. That means i will get 30 dollars for my investment for 1 year" = 1030 dollars. Are you sure that getting interest on mutual funds is accepted by the Quranic laws?
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peace,
Are you sure that getting interest on mutual funds is accepted by the Quranic laws?
I never said if it was acceptable or not. I simply pointed out the inherent problem with using 'fiat money' and what the best option was IF investing in a fund.
I do not have a view on whether it is acceptable or not.
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Peace David,
I think brother Wakas has a big point. To think of interests in ancient Arabia and contemporary society as one and the same, might not be very wise. There was no, per my understanding, inflation in those times. Everyone used gold, silver and other metals that had intrinsic value. Thus, no inflation. Today, we have money with no intrinsic value, and we have different currencies as well. Thus inflation. To counter inflation, the banks set a national interest rate. In Norway, it think it is around 4.25%.
I do not think this interest counts as riba because there is no doubling, tripling or multiplying of the initial sum. Let's take an example. According to
http//www.measuringworth.com/datasets/gold/result.phpAn ounce - 28.35 grams - of fine gold (isn't all gold fine?) was worth 446$ dollars in 2005. In 2006, it was worth 610$. You see, that in a year the value of a dollar has sunk. In 2005 you could buy 60 milligrams of gold for a 1 $, but that same dollar would in 2006 buy you no more than 46 milligrams. So, if you in 2005 take a loan of 446$, then in 2006 you MUST pay back 610$, which would be the same as having a interest of about 1.37%. As you can see for yourself, interest doesn't necessarily imply riba, as you are not really paying back more than you got. It is when the interest exceeds (this is one of the meanings of riba) the inflation based rate, in this case 1.37%, that it becomes usury (ger in norwegian) or riba.
If one only scratches on the surface taking only into account the numerical values 446 and 610, then one might be compelled to cry "riba! riba!". But, as shown, it is in fact not. So when you say that "you get 30$", it's not true. According to Norwegian bank rates you should be getting 1042.5$ for your $1000. So, in fact, you're loosing $12.5 that goes to the pay the bank for its services.
On a more personal note, it's good to hear that you are well and good. I'm glad on your behalf, but I also envy you for that writing course! I love to write, but lack proper training. Perhaps you could mentor me a bit... hehe sun Indeed, it is a writing project. Like Arnold Yasin, I too had the idea of responding to media coverage of Islam, but in addition also keeping watch over fatwa sites and expose them whenever we can. I need you, and others you might know, to help me in this. It's usually not much, most of the time it suffices with four or five paragraphs including quotes from the Quran that debunks the fatwa, and also some translation of the essential parts of the fatwa. Are you up to it, brother? If so, I'll immediately create an account for you as a writer on my site and send you the relevant links.
If there are others out there, who want help out, please contact me. If you don't know Norwegian, you can help through tips and notifications. I'll put your names up in the "thank you" page, and link to your sites if you want. See this thread for more info http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16612.0
Peace,
Nadeem
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Peace Nadeem,
Thank you for the economical information. You made some things more clear for me. These are great news, and it seems totally reasonable. I think as long as the interest % are low, it will not be unquranic. But we must now what are money is used for when we for example invest it. If it is invested in a "mutual fund" where they are supporting wars, children labour etc, it will be against the Quran, (as already mentioned in this thread). The governments has destroyed the natural money systems in the world. It irritates me that we can't use the Quranic laws in most economical situations. Nadeem, have you seen the movie "Money as debt"? This movie is a must see movie. It was an eye-opener for me, and every one should watch it as soon as possible. It only lasts 47 minutes. "Money as debt"
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
It is not a writing course or class. It is a class in history and many other things about europe. The reason i mentioned that we learn writing techniques, is because we have to write articles, novels and essays to get grades. And in the process of writing we learn some basic writing techniques. Basic techniques like Theme, plot, metaphors, alliteration etc. I already know all these stuff because i had it in school when i was younger, but it is good to repeat it dough. 95% of the class consists of reading books, only 5 % consists of writing. That means that we only had the opportunity to write 3-4 texts in 4 months.
Actually i like the way you write, and since you are 17 years only and already are writing that good, i think you will have a bright future when it comes to writing. When i was 17 i sucked i writing. lol. Remember that most followers of Quran alone have a lot of knowledge and went through many struggles to come were we are today. All our knowledge, life experiences and rationality is much more powerful than the average people. We supersede many of the people. I don't think you need any writing courses. The world is yours bro I can give you all the info we learned in our class. But it is only basic stuff, so i don't know if you want it. But i like to teach people something i know, or share my knowledge, so i can definitely share some of it with you. You can teach me some stuff too. Everyone has some knowledge that other people dont have.
The most complex and advanced writing techniques are not revealed in books our media etc. Therefore it may take many years before we find them, especially since we have to find them by going through trial and error. Personally i think the best writers are the ones who are most original, the ones who write much, and the ones who are willing to tell the truth in their texts. I want to invent new writing techniques, so i can be as original as possible, and i may have already invented one. I call it "complex flow", and its a way of making the lines in the text flow with eachother in a special way. It is very hard to write it, so i almost never use it if i write. But i hope to use it more as i evolve in the future. By the way, Great writers are also those who are able to adapt and change their writing style.
Not limiting ourselves is the key to success in writing and almost all other aspects in life. We can therefore keep
one of bruce lee's philosophy in mind when we are writing articlesEmpty your mind, be formless, shapeless--like water.
Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup,
You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle,
You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Now water can flow or it can crash!
Be water, my friend.
-- Bruce LeeNotice that the stiftest three is most easily cracked, while the bamboo survives by bending with the wind
- Bruce lee
Is your project going to be in only norwegian or english also?
When it comes to the project Nadeem, I am up to it, and i have a passion for writing, so i would love to write, especially when it comes to informing people about the truth. There are certain conditions As you already know my policy is to be anynomous when it comes to discussing religion, politics and other heated topic. Don't like to announce my faith our any other belief systems i have in the public yet. I think i can work more effective if i am anonymous. This is just a personal thing, and i will most likely change my mind about this issue in the future. If my policy is compatible with the concept in your project, it would be a pleasure to contribute to your site.
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Peace David,
I think brother Wakas has a big point. To think of interests in ancient Arabia and contemporary society as one and the same, might not be very wise. There was no, per my understanding, inflation in those times. Everyone used gold, silver and other metals that had intrinsic value. Thus, no inflation. Today, we have money with no intrinsic value, and we have different currencies as well. Thus inflation. To counter inflation, the banks set a national interest rate. In Norway, it think it is around 4.25%.
I do not think this interest counts as riba because there is no doubling, tripling or multiplying of the initial sum. Let's take an example. According to
http//www.measuringworth.com/datasets/gold/result.phpAn ounce - 28.35 grams - of fine gold (isn't all gold fine?) was worth 446$ dollars in 2005. In 2006, it was worth 610$. You see, that in a year the value of a dollar has sunk. In 2005 you could buy 60 milligrams of gold for a 1 $, but that same dollar would in 2006 buy you no more than 46 milligrams. So, if you in 2005 take a loan of 446$, then in 2006 you MUST pay back 610$, which would be the same as having a interest of about 1.37%. As you can see for yourself, interest doesn't necessarily imply riba, as you are not really paying back more than you got. It is when the interest exceeds (this is one of the meanings of riba) the inflation based rate, in this case 1.37%, that it becomes usury (?ger in norwegian) or riba.
If one only scratches on the surface taking only into account the numerical values 446 and 610, then one might be compelled to cry "riba! riba!". But, as shown, it is in fact not. So when you say that "you get 30$", it's not true. According to Norwegian bank rates you should be getting 1042.5$ for your $1000. So, in fact, you're loosing $12.5 that goes to the pay the bank for its services.
On a more personal note, it's good to hear that you are well and good. I'm glad on your behalf, but I also envy you for that writing course! I love to write, but lack proper training. Perhaps you could mentor me a bit... hehe sun Indeed, it is a writing project. Like Arnold Yasin, I too had the idea of responding to media coverage of Islam, but in addition also keeping watch over fatwa sites and expose them whenever we can. I need you, and others you might know, to help me in this. It's usually not much, most of the time it suffices with four or five paragraphs including quotes from the Quran that debunks the fatwa, and also some translation of the essential parts of the fatwa. Are you up to it, brother? If so, I'll immediately create an account for you as a writer on my site and send you the relevant links.
If there are others out there, who want help out, please contact me. If you don't know Norwegian, you can help through tips and notifications. I'll put your names up in the "thank you" page, and link to your sites if you want. See this thread for more info http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16612.0
Peace,
Nadeem
I hate economics but the way you explained that bro its made things abit clearer and to think your 17 is remarkable too. Keep it up!!
PEACE
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Peace Nadeem
So are you saying if your money is deteriorating in value, you can use interest to earn some of it back? I still think its Riba, so what if your money is losing value? Doesn't give you the excuse to partake in interest. What if there is no "inflation" one year, will you go and give that interest back to the bank because its become Riba? Sounds like you are trying to justify its is legal because of the crappy economy.Be careful. God doesn't waste his words. And doesn't give laws that are "outdated".
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Peace,
@ David_K
I'm pleased to know that my post complemented your understanding. I feel urged, however, to warn you and others that I'm a know-nothing when it comes to economy. All that I wrote, was simply the understanding I have from picking up some information here and there. I have by no means studied the subject to any meaningful depth. There, you're warned -)
I agree with you that the use of your funds should be your concern. So, invest in those goals that are well-aligned with quranic ideals and morals.
I have created an account for you at my site, and will send you the details shortly.
@ 2Pac - Notts
Thank you very much for words of encouragement! Comments like these make writing worth while... -)
@ aalmakto
Riba refers to an increase. I have shown that if calculations are done using actual value of money, instead of quantity of money, there is no riba.
If you follow your current logic, then you might as well say that ?1 for $2 is also riba, because 2 is 200% of 1. The same logic that stops you from actually doing this, is the same logic behind why interest rate at 1.37%, as per the given situation, is not riba. As you would demand $2 for your ?1, I will demand $610 in 2006 for $446 from 2005. Do you see that it is not riba?
What if there is no "inflation" one year, will you go and give that interest back to the bank because its become Riba?
This is a valid objection. The value may even increase!
I do not know how to circumvent this, perhaps giving it off as charity, as per 2278.
If one studies the relevant verses, riba is always defined as something that increases, never goes down. Inflation and deflation go up and down, and a proper interest rate would incur in those tops and bottoms. This fact again draws us farther away from the scenario the Quran takes as basis. Making it harder for us to use interest and riba interchangeably.
Sounds like you are trying to justify its is legal because of the crappy economy.
I did appreciate your critic as it was enlightening to me and most certainly others, but I do not appreciate this sentiment. My post was no more than attempt to aid David and present before him my understanding. The current economic model is crap, I concur. But unless you have a button beneath your desk that can change all that, I suggest you do not condescend to attempts and efforts at coping with this reality.
Be careful. God doesn't waste his words. And doesn't give laws that are "outdated".
Why do you make this statement? Was it because I said that metals and paper money are not the same, and that the difference is significant enough to compel us to reform our understanding? What's wrong with those remarks?
Peace,
Nadeem
