doubting Quran
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peace,
Don't fear your doubts, and don't let them discomfort you. They are there to maintain the difference between yourself and a fool.
Nice.
like 929, the controversy over fighting in the sacred months, and the old issue i had with the Quran to begin with- if these injunctions to fight and kill relate only to a certain battle why are these references recorded in a book that is for all time?
If lessons/guidance/law/etc can be obtained from a past story, then that is why it is probably included.
and why has God allowed to remain those references to killing, if He is all-knowing, and would know that in the future, they would be used to excuse killing innocent people?
The book is about us and for us. To not mention violence/fighting/killing would be denying the human and in fact, would probably result in criticism for not mentioning it.
and why do so many things belong "to God and the Prophet"?
I assume because that was the authority at the time.
In such situations, I sometimes find it useful to come up with alternatives, i.e. what I think should have been said and how situations should have been handled, then scrutinse the alternative solutions to see problems, if any. It can be surprising.
I would say one thing, some people seem to have a problem with violence/killing full stop, but sometimes it is simply necessary. Chapter 9 is extremely harsh (well, harsh for AQ) and the context explains why.
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yes, but... the context.... would a universal book, coming down from heaven, have to contain such references to historical events, with contexts and limits as to repeatability?
we are violent, we do kill. but i don't think we should. i mean, the verses have been used to murder innocent worshipers of other faiths! and didn't God know this would happen? so why include these verses in His final message?
i have been reading the True Furqan, and am both offended and astounded. i wonder, is there truth in some of the Quran's verses, that the Furqan has to repeat or quote them, and no truth in the violent passages? why would God ask His beloved ones to kill and fight, and not protect them? the Christians allowed themselves to be martyred... for their faith. why not the early Muslims? wouldn't God have blessed and destroyed those He willed of His own will?
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yes, but... the context.... would a universal book, coming down from heaven, have to contain such references to historical events, with contexts and limits as to repeatability?
Usually the use of context is useful when delivering a message/lesson/law/etc. Also, if the people at the time of revelation encountered fighting/war/animosity etc which they no doubt would have, I would have thought using this as the context/relation would be perfectly appropriate to use.
we are violent, we do kill. but i don't think we should. i mean, the verses have been used to murder innocent worshipers of other faiths! and didn't God know this would happen? so why include these verses in His final message?
If God is all knowing, then of course God knew. AQ contains many internal distinguishing mechanisms. It is similar to "give the excess"... a naturally corrupt individual will slant this to their favour and only give the minimal amount, whilst another would give a lot more.
why would God ask His beloved ones to kill and fight, and not protect them? the Christians allowed themselves to be martyred... for their faith. why not the early Muslims? wouldn't God have blessed and destroyed those He willed of His own will?
See the "why bad things happen / evil in the world" discussions.
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"why do so many things belong "to God and the Prophet"?" Is this actually stated in the Quran? This partners Mohammad with Allah!
I wonder, can a person be Muslim and follow the example of Jesus instead of Mohammad?
A difference I see between early Christians and early Muslims - The early Christians more concerned about eternity and their life after death, martyered for GOD. Early Muslims worried about this life and world gathering wealth, land, cleansning the un-believers off the earth.
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In the name of God, most merciful, most compassionate.
Peace be with you.No.. That is similar to how things belong to the state now.
Peace be with you.
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I wonder, can a person be Muslim and follow the example of Jesus instead of Mohammad?
A difference I see between early Christians and early Muslims - The early Christians more concerned about eternity and their life after death, martyered for GOD. Early Muslims worried about this life and world gathering wealth, land, cleansning the un-believers off the earth.
may God forgive me if i'm off-track, but i'm beginning to wonder the same. pvb, i know that i do not believe in the trinity as understood by most Christians, nor do i believe the NT is free from editing or theological contradictions. yet, there are unitarian Christians, and here's where i come up against a dilemma.
the Quran says that faith is believing in God and all the messengers, and to deny one (e.g. Muhammed), is to deny God. i can not deny (and really, i am thankful) that Quranic language, philosophy, metaphor, and practice have become an integral part of my spiritual life. yet if i doubt the Quran, do i doubt God? the Quran itself names Jews, Christians, and Mandaeans as believers in God and promises them paradise if they are righteous and worshipful. at the same time, it states that to deny the prophet-hood of Muhammed and the divinity of the Quran is to deny God's existence- Jews, Madaeans, and Christians do not believe in the same messengers.
the Quran is remarkable in the true things that it says about God, and the clarity of its signs. it also says, to paraphrase, "yep, they're not going to like the verses about fighting... and many will disbelieve on that account, and choose (whether ideologically or physically) to stay back from fighting".
perhaps this is what i'm doing? there are verses that relate to the raiding of caravans and the holding of the possessions of those conquered in war, and also of killing and slaying captives. yet, it says in other parts that to kill is a great offense, that one is not to be aggressive, and that one must be patient in adversity, that God is enough of a supporter. so why, then, did Muhammed and the early Muslims not rely on God's mercy and help, instead of going into battle, if killing is such an offense to God?
these are just some things going through my mind. i am praying on it a good deal, and asking God for guidance.
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Peace Ayani,
the Quran says that faith is believing in God and all the messengers, and to deny one (e.g. Muhammed), is to deny God. i can not deny (and really, i am thankful) that Quranic language, philosophy, metaphor, and practice have become an integral part of my spiritual life. yet if i doubt the Quran, do i doubt God? the Quran itself names Jews, Christians, and Mandaeans as believers in God and promises them paradise if they are righteous and worshipful. at the same time, it states that to deny the prophet-hood of Muhammed and the divinity of the Quran is to deny God's existence- Jews, Madaeans, and Christians do not believe in the same messengers.
Christians (Masi7iyin) are never even mentioned. Trinitarians and Monophysites' beliefs are strongly condemned in the great reading and there is nothing suggesting even remotely a promise of paradise for them.
perhaps this is what i'm doing? there are verses that relate to the raiding of caravans and the holding of the possessions of those conquered in war, and also of killing and slaying captives.
There are no such verses.
Peace,
Ayman
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3336, 491 among others.
and look at 528! at Abel's example to his brother. why then, couldn't or didn't the early Muslims follow this example, and why is this "turning of the other cheek" not upheld as a universal rule elsewhere?
and 9111 says that the Injeel encouraged those who followed it to slay, whereas Jesus never said such a thing. and why are all other Biblical examples of others rising up to kill condemned in the strongest language, whereas Muhammed and his followers are given God's blessings to do so?
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003.055
YUSUFALI Behold! Allah said "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.PICKTHAL (And remember) when Allah said O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR And when Allah said O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
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brothers and sisters ~
these past few days i have had a lot of doubt. as to faith, God, the Quran, religious truth...
there are many verses which i come across and can not reconcile with. i can understand just war, but i can not reconcile such verses as this
suras eight, nine, and two bother me especially. i know i do not believe in the trinity, and that Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita encourages Arjuna to fight and kill for God's cause.
like 929, the controversy over fighting in the sacred months, and the old issue i had with the Quran to begin with- if these injunctions to fight and kill relate only to a certain battle why are these references recorded in a book that is for all time? and why has God allowed to remain those references to killing, if He is all-knowing, and would know that in the future, they would be used to excuse killing innocent people?
and why do so many things belong "to God and the Prophet"?
yet there is so much in the Quran that has guided me, given me hope, and clarified things for me. yet again, the issue of the book itself and the importance placed on the book has driven a great rift between myself and my Christian friend, whom i love very much.
has anyone else struggled with this? what ideas did you come to? how did God guide you?Peace,
Respectfully.Dear sister, i myself, had the same querstions and as time went on, here is what i have discovered God tells us about all these past events so that we take a lesson from them, we see how they fought, how they believed, how they interacted with others, towards believers, disbelievers, what happens if one is impatient or patient, if one believes in God or disbelieves.
Sister, God tells us for example the story about prophet Moses, how he approached the tyrannt and true oppressor - Pharaoh and prophet Moses confronted him and showed him the proofs, prophet Moses offered the challenge, he challenged pharaoh, he did not say, i will send a rain of airplanes or suicide bombers and make you sorry for your words, no, no, no, no, prophet Moses believed in God, trusted God, relied on God and said, okay, mister pharaoh, let's see, if i'm right, i'm right, and he showed him the evidences and he won.
We can learn from that story, that we should not fear the bad guys, we should offer a fair deal and a chance to the people to see who is right and who is wrong - needless to say, God knows best, which is why later prophet Muhammad recieived this revelation - to you, your religion, to me mine, we will come all before God and He will judge as, as God is The Most Just.
I have spoken to a Christians, i have two of them as my roommates and one of them likes to talk about rleigion a lot and she asks me often why does God prohiobit pork. I explained and then she asks me questions about prophet Jesus, Mary, the "crucifixion", and i also explain that, to the best of my knolwdge and just talking to her for hours, literally, hours about Christianty and Islam, she is starting to question her Faith. She hasn't accepted Islam but i have asked her some stuff regarding the sentence son of god and i have assured her that God doesn't have a son.
After just a few hours, she was still under a huge question mark regarding prophet Jesus and Mary.
All the events in the Quran - regarding the past, present or the future events - are there for a reason. God also tells us about how Jews have corrupted their religion, how they added stuff to their beliefs and started following other books and same goes for Christians.
Quran tells us about past wars so that we learn from them. When my former employer put a hatchet under my throat, i just asked, without a fear of dying there in the kitchen"Is this how we spread Islam, brother?" He removed the hatchet and went to his office. I just smiled and couldn't believe how a true and real Believer, Real Muslim can defeat an enemy with one sentence. Imagine.
Sorry for writing so long, i haven't written much in the past few months and i got 24 new ideas which need to be written, a.s.a.p.
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Ayani,
3336, 491 among others.
There is nothing about fighting in 3336. As for 491, it is clearly in the contest of self-defense
4.91 You will find others who desire that they be safe from you, and be safe from their people. Everytime they are returned to the test they are plunged therein. If they do not leave you alone or offer you peace or hold back their hands, then take them on and fight them wherever you find them. Against such We have given you clear authority.
and look at 528! at Abel's example to his brother. why then, couldn't or didn't the early Muslims follow this example, and why is this "turning of the other cheek" not upheld as a universal rule elsewhere?
His brother was only going to kill him and not imprison, torture and kill his children, his wife, etc. as is often the case in a war of agression (even in this day and age). If you encounter a killer and you decide to turn the other cheek and not fight to defend yourself, then this is fine and the killer will carry all your sins if he or she actually murders you. But if you encounter a killer who wants to kill you, your kids and your entire family then you should fight to defend the powerless who don't have your choice to turn the other cheek.
and 9111 says that the Injeel encouraged those who followed it to slay, whereas Jesus never said such a thing. and why are all other Biblical examples of others rising up to kill condemned in the strongest language, whereas Muhammed and his followers are given God's blessings to do so?
Where in 9111 or anywhere else are they given the god's blessings ("barakat" to kill?
Peace,
Ayman
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"God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Injeel and the Qur'an. And whoever fulfills this vow with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the supreme success."
you are right, it's not a blessing, but... the word used is "promise", and describes those who kill as well as who are killed. then the verse says that this promise of paradise to those who kill (among other things) has also been given through the Injeel. yet does the NT say anything like that? that paradise is promised to those who kill?
or do you read it differently?
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Peace Ayani,
"God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Injeel and the Qur'an. And whoever fulfills this vow with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the supreme success."
you are right, it's not a blessing, but... the word used is "promise", and describes those who kill as well as who are killed. then the verse says that this promise of paradise to those who kill (among other things) has also been given through the Injeel. yet does the NT say anything like that? that paradise is promised to those who kill?
or do you read it differently?What do you think "the cause of God" is? Please give some specific examples from reality.
Is agression, rape, torture and murder "the cause of God" or is it defending a powerless young girl and her family against such atrocities?
Isn't peace "the cause of God"?
Peace,
Ayman
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I have read that there seems to be 2 different Qurans- one that is violent and the other peaceful. One part from Medina and one from Mecca.
If the Quran were divided into sections- historical accounts, Allah's law for today would it be easier to stomach for peace loving people?
Aren't there verses about killing those that change their religion? My GOD would never want that- there is always hope that the person will see the light again, even if it is just seconds before death.
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I have read that there seems to be 2 different Qurans- one that is violent and the other peaceful. One part from Medina and one from Mecca.
If the Quran were divided into sections- historical accounts, Allah's law for today would it be easier to stomach for peace loving people?
Aren't there verses about killing those that change their religion? My GOD would never want that- there is always hope that the person will see the light again, even if it is just seconds before death.
actually, there are no such verses about killing those who lose faith that i have found. i was looking for any today. here's what i found
there is no compulsion in religion. the right direction is henceforth distinct from error. and he who rejects false deities and believes in Allah hath grasped a firm branch which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. 2256
say will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him? 2135
and if ye slide back after the clear proofs have come unto you, then know that Allah is Mighty, Wise. 2209
in other words, if a person comes to believe in the Quran, then disbelieves, God is still all-knowing. and whoever believes in Him, whether he be a Jew, a Christian, a Mandaean, etc. will also have grasped that firm branch.
this is what i am finding, sister.
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3336, 491 among others.
and look at 528! at Abel's example to his brother. why then, couldn't or didn't the early Muslims follow this example, and why is this "turning of the other cheek" not upheld as a universal rule elsewhere?
and 9111 says that the Injeel encouraged those who followed it to slay, whereas Jesus never said such a thing. and why are all other Biblical examples of others rising up to kill condemned in the strongest language, whereas Muhammed and his followers are given God's blessings to do so?
Salaam Ayani
If you remember the Quran also asks why do you say what you do not do and condemns hypocricy. God allows us to take revenge whilst encouraging us to forgive as its the better option, whereas christian priests have talked of the turning of the other cheek at the same time sending their followers on killing sprees around the world in the name of God, be it crusades, spanish inquisitation or the current wars in Afganistan and Iraq where innocent civilians are mercilessly killed.
Killing is only allowed in war between the warring parties according to the Quran, and this is what armies do everywhere. However the killing of innocents using pilotless planes and targeted assassinations is regular practice of those so called civilised world who are suppose to beleive in "turning of the other cheek" and who claim that Islam advocates terror.peace
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you are right.... sister, thank you. i'm also recalling 2216, saying that "you may not like it, but sometimes you have to...". as i re-read those few verses about fighting and killing, i'm seeing that, yes, it's about defense and fighting oppression. with God's help. i'm thinking of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, the rebellion of Native Americans against invading, murderous settles, such things.
jazak Allah, sister Farida. may God help us to understand, and guide us.
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Salam Ayani,
Brother Idolfree1 (Kyle) used to say that the word "Al Rasool"= The Messenger, refers to the Quran and not to prophet Muhammad. I disagreed with him then (more than a year ago). Recently, I saw that his thinking made sense to me in some of the ayat though and not all. So when you read "Obey Allah and obey al rasool" I would think that the word al rasool must only fit the Quran and not prophet Muhammad.
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peace Taj, all,
As a general note...
When a term such as "messenger" is used it primarily refers to role, i.e. a person can only be a messenger when they have a message. Who the actual person is is not as important, because they are defined by them having a message (in this case, The Quran).
If we remove our traditional baggage and emotion, we can easily show this with an example
At a swimming pool or beach, if there is a sign that says "Please obey the lifeguard at all times." then it is directly referring to the person's role as a lifeguard and nothing else. Let's say the lifeguard's name happened to be Fred, imagine the difference in meaning if the sign said "Obey Fred at all times". We can all see that this is a totally different message! It is no coincidence that every swimming pool or beach in the entire world* does not use a sign that refers to the person's name rather than their role, as they know it would be nonsense.
- none that I have seen or heard of at least.
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Peace ayani, all -- btw great analogy above Wakas.
yet i felt blessed and thankful when making salah, when reciting al-fatiha. when reading the Quran, answers would come to clear questions i'd had. God showed me what i was looking for within or through the Quran, yet God is not only in the Quran.
Yes, whenever a supposed contradiction arouse to test my faith (inheritance verses especially were difficult and had to resolve) the meaning was made clear by a particular verse or thought or even a random turning of the page, the answer was there every time.
Below turned up on one such occasion?
Surah 28 al-Qasas - The Story, Stories, The Narrative
And you were not expecting that the Book (this Qur'?n) would be sent down to you, but it is a mercy from your Lord. So never be a supporter of the disbelievers. (86) And let them not turn you away from the Ay?t of All?h after they have been sent down to you and invite to your Lord, and be not of Al-Mushrik?n. (87) And invoke not any other il?h (god) along with All?h, L? il?ha illa Huwa. Everything will perish save His Face. His is the Decision, and to Him you (all) shall be returned. (8Turn to any page, answers for believers every time -- the miracle of the Qur'an!
peace
