doubting Quran
-
I don't think he sent prophets to guide us.
What I am saying I am open to (I mean it is something that could be true - but not sure about) is the possibility that God has given each and everyone of us an inner light, an inner nature or conscience (or Fitrah) that is inclined towards good/morality etc...
But I don't believe in Prophets or Holy books.
I believe we are all charged with working things out for ourselves.
Nor do I think there are moral absolutes of what is 'right' or 'wrong' to everything - it depends on one's circumstances and perception, ability, and many other things.
But I say AGAIN - I reject completely the idea that God sent prophets or holy books.
These are all man-made and stem from man's (misguided but well-meant) desire to "Share" the truth he has found with others.
The trouble with our inner light is that it only shines so long as we're spiritually clean. When a person keeps on committing sins, lying, cheating, hurting and harming other people, it gets covered up, to the point that we become convinced that our 'conscience' is telling us that the bad things we do are in fact good. So when a thief first steals, they might be going against their conscience, and they might feel bad about it. But the 20th time, or 100th time they steal, it will not be in spite of, but because of their instincts - it will really feel right to them. At no stage will they realise that their conscience has been entirely buried by their greed.
Our conscience only works when our Nafs, the desires that constitute our 'Self', are subordinated to our Ruh, the will of God inside us. But the fact is that we all sin, and we are all children of sinners, going back all the way to Adam. No human being is without sin, so it is impossible for us to really be certain of our consciences without some external guidance. So we have religion, which is like a light house, providing us with hope and direction amidst the stormy seas of life in this world.
-
Yet sharing the truth is very successful - after all, we're typing these messages on computers, not stone tablets.
Why not for religious guidance?
The problem is that one person's experience of the truth doesn't travel well to others - it becomes soulless dogma before too long.
I think we must experience and struggle to work it out for ourselves and for our lives - and let others find their own way.
-
that actually sounds very Quaker. they also downplay the absolute importance of scripture, and talk about an "inner light" of God within all people, and focus on person truth-seeking.
Quakers are cool ) (but I don't want to join any religion/group/band/sect/organisation/ etc...)
-
The trouble with our inner light is that it only shines so long as we're spiritually clean. When a person keeps on committing sins, lying, cheating, hurting and harming other people, it gets covered up, to the point that we become convinced that our 'conscience' is telling us that the bad things we do are in fact good. So when a thief first steals, they might be going against their conscience, and they might feel bad about it. But the 20th time, or 100th time they steal, it will not be in spite of, but because of their instincts - it will really feel right to them. At no stage will they realise that their conscience has been entirely buried by their greed.
Our conscience only works when our Nafs, the desires that constitute our 'Self', are subordinated to our Ruh, the will of God inside us. But the fact is that we all sin, and we are all children of sinners, going back all the way to Adam. No human being is without sin, so it is impossible for us to really be certain of our consciences without some external guidance. So we have religion, which is like a light house, providing us with hope and direction amidst the stormy seas of life in this world.
Maybe life has special lessons for those who do bad things too.
-
Mahmud H, religion isn't the only source of external guidance, in fact most of the time it's not a very good source at all. The best teacher is experience. Your own experience and the experience of others. You see someone die at 55 because they smoked and you don't do it yourself. You lie and decieve and when you are left without any friends you decide you won't do it again. That's how it works. A book telling you what to do will never have the same impact as real-life experience, and the only way of knowing if a book is right is setting it against real-life experience to see if it works.
peace -
oh and also, books are valuable because they help you learn, it's just that "religion" is not the only, or even the most reliable, source of wisdom out there. we can learn from anywhere and anyone, and usually the best wisdom comes from those sources that are not under the banner of religion, IMO.
-
Certainly, experience is good, but only if you respond to it objectively and only if you get it in time to use it. For example, you can't see someone smoke for 55 years until you're 55 years old. Otherwise, you're not responding to experience, are you? If you give up smoking because your biology teacher says it causes cancer, then that is no different to religious guidance, it is? It's behaving in a certain manner as a matter of hearsay.
Then there is the other problem, how do you tell the difference between good and bad purely on the basis of experience? It's not to difficult in the case of smoking, you can just say smoking kills you, so it's bad. But what about more fundamental human drives. What about hurting other people, lying and cheating? Experience doesn't necessarily help you there. Science doesn't help you. Sometimes people who lie and cheat get their comeuppance, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. How do you tell right and wrong from science and unguided experience? There are only two ways, as cosmicdancer points out, our consciences, and the other way is religion, as the prophets had very big souls, and could see a lot of things.
-
brothers and sisters ~
these past few days i have had a lot of doubt. as to faith, God, the Quran, religious truth...
there are many verses which i come across and can not reconcile with. i can understand just war, but i can not reconcile such verses as this
suras eight, nine, and two bother me especially. i know i do not believe in the trinity, and that Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita encourages Arjuna to fight and kill for God's cause.
like 929, the controversy over fighting in the sacred months, and the old issue i had with the Quran to begin with- if these injunctions to fight and kill relate only to a certain battle why are these references recorded in a book that is for all time? and why has God allowed to remain those references to killing, if He is all-knowing, and would know that in the future, they would be used to excuse killing innocent people?
and why do so many things belong "to God and the Prophet"?
yet there is so much in the Quran that has guided me, given me hope, and clarified things for me. yet again, the issue of the book itself and the importance placed on the book has driven a great rift between myself and my Christian friend, whom i love very much.
has anyone else struggled with this? what ideas did you come to? how did God guide you?
Dear Sister
When reading the Quran, any one can be confused and become misguided if does not ably a very important rule What are the DECISIVE Verses, and what are the ALLEGORICAL ones?(٧
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical (not of well-established meaning), seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding (3- 7).
In the previous Quranic verse, and many other verses, God warns people from following verses in the Quran that were revealed to give the prophet certain guidance in a specific situation. But once the situation ends, the special guidance should not be followed, but the original one?the decisive?becomes the law.
The Quran commandment, as in the ten commandments of the Old Testament, is ?you shall not kill except in certain conditions that are given in the Quran?.
6-151. Say "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.The Quranic conditions in which killing is tolerable?The decisive verses.
1- Eye for an Eye
2-178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.2-Self-defense
2-190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2-194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.Forcing people to warship God is a forbidden act by God, by a very decisive verses. It is an act that undermines the essence of why God created humans. God wants people to warship him through their free-well, which would show their love for him. Forcing worshiping upon people not only damages the relationship between God and his humans, but distract people from loving their God. As we know, love can only come at free-well.
10-99And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?
A warning message to the prophet to not force people into worshiping.
10-100 And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.
2-256 There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
In some verses in the Quran, the prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was instructed to fight back the Jews and Christians who allied with the unbelievers to fight Moslems and end their religion. Can you tell that the pre-condition of self defiance is met; therefore,. The prophet followed the verses that was revealed for such situation?the ALLEGORICAL ones. But when the war ended, he went back to the DECISIVE Ones?you shall not Kill or Transgress.
But today, the Extremists follow the Allegorical ones as a Decisive Ones.as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical
If you like it, please Circulate to others
May God Bless You All and Lead you to His Light of Truth -
Hi Belalhammad, would you say that 929 is allegorical?
Dear Brother
The Decisive Verse is the Verse that I mention in my post regarding fighting, which indicates a precondition for fighting that is "They have to start the fight to destroy or force you into their religion". (as the same condition that happened is Chapter 9). Thus, 9-29 is decisive when the pre-condition exist, but if not, you follow the ones that says you can not fight them, you cannot force them into your religion, and you tell them that your Lord is my Lord and your books are my Books.
God Bless you all -
We all have inner guidance from GOD.
Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
-
We all have inner guidance from GOD.
Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
interesting. Muslims would believe the same, that we are imbued by God with the capacity to seek, to recognize, to respond, to worship.
some may cover up or deny that, yet they lie to themselves, and they wrong themselves, not God, when they do so. kind of like putting your own hands around your windpipe and squeezing, and getting angry about it.
-
Dear Brother
The Decisive Verse is the Verse that I mention in my post regarding fighting, which indicates a precondition for fighting that is "They have to start the fight to destroy or force you into their religion". (as the same condition that happened is Chapter 9). Thus, 9-29 is decisive when the pre-condition exist, but if not, you follow the ones that says you can not fight them, you cannot force them into your religion, and you tell them that your Lord is my Lord and your books are my Books.
God Bless you allFor them to say that verse 9-29 abrogates 150 or even 200 verses I believe is a desperate attempt by the sectarian jusrist to justify conquest. The reality there is nothing in the Koran to indicate this verse abrogates nothing and the verses of the Koran suppliment, not cancel out each other. To try to create a whole religion of 6,666 verse from one verse is desperation. The reality is the Koran is clear as to what the job of the prophet is
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
1128 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it??
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."
2267 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."
24.54. Say "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
4828 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.3616 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
109.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
-
For them to say that verse 9-29 abrogates 150 or even 200 verses I believe is a desperate attempt by the sectarian jusrist to justify conquest. The reality there is nothing in the Koran to indicate this verse abrogates nothing and the verses of the Koran suppliment, not cancel out each other. To try to create a whole religion of 6,666 verse from one verse is desperation. The reality is the Koran is clear as to what the job of the prophet is
Peace
You are right. Please note that if you make the 9-29 Decisive verse, you need to cancel out hundereds of Decisive verses. But when making 9-29 a pre-condition verse (ALLEGORICAL ), when they attack you, then you do not need to cancel out any other verses in the Quran.
God Bless -
Is this a Medina or Mecca verse?
009.029
YUSUFALI Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. -
Greetings and Peace to everyone!
Let me share some ideas.
Being sincere to what you understand is key to see truth. Be sincere to what you understand. If you sincerely verified that there's God - then be most sincere to Him - not to Books or sayings or whatever.
If you want to believe in an understanding of a holy book - then it would only be done sincerely if you can verify that the holy book is indeed from God - and the understanding/idea is "consistent with Reality = in compliance with Nature/God". (True = consistent with Reality = in compliance with Nature/God). As for those translations/understandings of verses which you can't verify as true/consistent , then "believing" it would probably be insincere.
In the physical preservation sense (like http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm , or http//submission.org/miracle/ - there are miraculous non-man-made patterns - clear evidence - but it doesn't mean that all 19 articles/theories are true, verify for yourself what you can), I am sincerely sure that the Quran is indeed from God and preserved. But I'm not accepting all "translations/understandings/ideas" all people make from it. I try to do my best to understand/believe what can be verified and directed to me.
Many moral issues, are indeed understood/verified by a person's inner moral jundgement in different circumstances - and clearly it's not the same for everyone all the time - so it's always for God to judge.
So, are all verses talking/directed to YOU as a believer in God? Can you verify/understand all verses?
From what I learned, no and no respectively. So don't take the whole Quran (as in one's current understandings) in a "all or nothing" way.As for the physical preservation as mentioned above, yes it is preserved most compeletely until today - so you probably can learn more and more from cross-referencing, if God so wills, if you look at the context well. The preservation as a whole also lets you derive what you can't verify from what you can verify - and re-verify the consistence/harmony again.
For example. Let's consider this 929 issue.
(Yes, there's no abrogation) I would say that this is a decisive verse. And this is explained (in quranic context).
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
The people referred to in 929 could dangerously mean anyone if it is taken out of context. But if in the quranic context, especially the prophet and the believers with him that time would clearly know who this refers to.
I'm not suggesting to only find some verses to explain other verses, but I'm saying that when you read it as a story... see the context (in Quran inself surrounding verses/chapters, previous verses/chapters - see it like a long story..). And it's VERY important to see to whom the verse is talking to - To whom was God's Messenger declaring the verse to - from the previous verses/chapters. That's why the context/surrounding verses/chapters is so important (If it's taken out of context? see 446,513,541).
In this case back from Chapter 2, God is talking (via the Messenger) to the Children of Israel to accept this Message (via the Messenger which was promised as in 616). And about the warring and expelling that happened, etc... then treaties as in the starting of the chapter 9.
Many things you can understand/learn from the context - and you can possibly learn many moral lessons from them. But if it's NOT a specific instruction to YOU, then it's clearly not the real priority or important for YOU to do it or understand it, and maybe you can never find real provable evidence to understand it in harmony/consistence. Take higher priority in looking/implementing that those which are directed to you, what you should/can understand and do - because it's your own bond/salat to God (the bonds/laws - not rituals... - make you do good, away from evil).
In this case/verse 929 - I would say that it's NOT an instruction to ME, but it was directed to the prophet and the believers with him. And yes, something related to "drive them out from where they drove you out". (And yes, that "you" is not directed to ME.)
As for the why "God and Messenger" issue (it is NEVER said to "Obey God and the Prophet" - well described by brother Wakas in the "Life-guard" example.
Let me repost this excerpt from one old post also
-
The Prophet and Messenger is not the same. The Messenger is the state that the prophet is speaking God's message - perfectly - so God said Obey the Messenger. Now, see 661 - why does God use the word prophet there? Because that's what the prophet did, NOT in the ROLE of the Messenger.
-
Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
-
The duty of the Messenger is ONLY to clearly deliver the Message , , , , . How to obey him? Obey what he ONLY does (only delivers the Message). He warns with the Quran whomever it reaches (it reached us also) . He reminds with the Quran to those who revere Gods promise .
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane. -
-
Very good post.
I might add, that as we live some ayas that said nothing to us before, may start speaking, that we evolve in our reception of the message, which is why our evaluation of the whole of it will always be limited, that shouldn't detract from our sincerity, and that if we do not get something out of an aya or of a number of ayas, we should fake it or accept any handed down convention with which in fact we do not communicate.
Salaam
-
stay away from what you cannot understand .. GOD gives understanding of what HE wishes to who HE wishes. If you doubt something in the Quran ... you truly do not understand why it is there .... so just turn away from it ..... till GOD brings you back to make you understand. Do not destroy your faith with GOD by some of the things which you cannot understand in the Quran. God warns us Himself, every act of thought, sight and hearing will be questioned, so don't go where your wisdom cannot lead you.
Peace
-
stay away from what you cannot understand .. GOD gives understanding of what HE wishes to who HE wishes. If you doubt something in the Quran ... you truly do not understand why it is there .... so just turn away from it ..... till GOD brings you back to make you understand. Do not destroy your faith with GOD by some of the things which you cannot understand in the Quran. God warns us Himself, every act of thought, sight and hearing will be questioned, so don't go where your wisdom cannot lead you.
Peace
So, should we stop reasoning when we read the Quran; should we stop asking the people who might have a good answer, when we do not have one; should we stop debating in order to reach the truth; or should all of us ignor good advices from people who have good knowldage in Quran.
Please, clear your post.
Thanks