Women & Ablution
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Peace everyone,
As far as I know, there are 2 verses from The Quran that outline the process of ablution - 443 & 56
443 O you who acknowledge, do not come near the contact prayer while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or one of you come from the bathroom, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water then you shall seek clean soil and wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
56 O you who acknowledge, when you rise to attend the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
My question is, due to the underlined portions, are these verses only for men, or only for men when it comes to ablution without water, or what?
I recall reading once that the Arabic was unique that it used a word that included both genders or something, but I'm not sure as I am not educated in the language. I know the word used there is "l-nisa", which I only know to be "the women" unless there's some grammatical situation I am not aware of.
Any help is appreciated.
May Allah guide us all.
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Peace,
Well, the verse begins with "Oh you who have believed", which should mean both men and women, right?
I'd be interested in hearing what the difference is between "(if) you had intercourse" and "has had sexual contact with the women" . They seem to mean the same thing.
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peace Eik,
The Arabic masculine plural can refer to all male group, or, male+female group.
As per my understanding, in Quran, all commands/guidance are applicable to both males and females, unless there is a logical/practical reason not to do so. Quran often (all the time?) mentions differences when there is one.
This has been discussed briefly in the past. Myself and sister Samia discussed it, e.g. when it says what food is "lawful" it uses masculine plural, and I said in the past, if I recall correctly, this is perhaps the most solid example demonstrating application to both genders as there is absolutely no reason to make it different etc.
This is not identical to the situation you bring up, but it is relevant. One or two members, considered, the regular/timed communal salat only obligatory upon men, e.g. Zlatan, if I recall correctly, so you could read up on this if you wish.
peace Mushu,
I dont know much about relationships, but I'm pretty sure there is a difference between
- intercourse
- sexual contact
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Peace Wakas,
peace Mushu,
I dont know much about relationships, but I'm pretty sure there is a difference between
- intercourse
- sexual contact
I don't know much about relationships either, but I thought intercourse was included within sexual contact. It's like saying, "Do x if you have eaten chips, or if you have eaten food."
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I dont know much about relationships, but I'm pretty sure there is a difference between
- intercourse
- sexual contact
Sexual Intercouse is the act of two joining. Sexual contact could be touching or fondling of the others private areas causing excitement, or being playful yet not having intercourse. Atlease that is how I would see it. I am married so it is just experience. Sometime couples caress and cuddle intimately without actual intercourse happening.
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Peace,
Well, the verse begins with "Oh you who have believed", which should mean both men and women, right?
I'd be interested in hearing what the difference is between "(if) you had intercourse" and "has had sexual contact with the women" . They seem to mean the same thing.
Peace Mushu,
Yeah, that's what is confusing. It seems to address everyone at the start, but then singles out the contact with women later on. Does this include woman-woman contact? ???
I think Indelwyn clarified the difference pretty well. But what is odd is that I cannot see anything pertaining to sex now that I look at the definition of the words.
Let's see if Wakas knows...
peace Eik,
The Arabic masculine plural can refer to all male group, or, male+female group.
As per my understanding, in Quran, all commands/guidance are applicable to both males and females, unless there is a logical/practical reason not to do so. Quran often (all the time?) mentions differences when there is one.
Peace Wakas,
The Arabic masculine plural that you are referring to is the "you" prior to the actual instruction, correct?
But if the contact is still with "l-nisa", then doesn't that mean if any men and/or women have come in contact with women?
Also, do you know where the whole sex part comes in? I'm looking at The Quranic Arabic Corpus and "junuban" means "(in) a state of (ceremonial) impurity" (as opposed to sexual intercourse), and "lmastumu" means "you have touched/contacted" (as opposed to sexual contact).
I'm thinking if the explanation can involve woman-woman contact, maybe it isn't sexual in nature.
I have no idea. -\
May peace be with you both.
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Peace Mushu,
Yeah, that's what is confusing. It seems to address everyone at the start, but then singles out the contact with women later on. Does this include woman-woman contact? ???
If you take the traditional understanding, then yea I guess so.
I think Indelwyn clarified the difference pretty well. But what is odd is that I cannot see anything pertaining to sex now that I look at the definition of the words.
He did indeed, although what I was getting at seemed to have been missed. If lmastumu l-nisa means "sexual contact with the women", then the mentioning of junuban is redundant, as intercourse is a form of sexual contact with women.
But what is odd is that I cannot see anything pertaining to sex now that I look at the definition of the words.
Can junuban be ceremonial impurity/intercourse when the same word is used in 28/11 and translated as afar/distance?
And lmastumu doesn't mean sexual contact in 72/8. Why make it sexual in the ablution verses?
The traditional translations are not convincing for me.
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peace Mushu, all,
He did indeed, although what I was getting at seemed to have been missed. If lmastumu l-nisa means "sexual contact with the women", then the mentioning of junuban is redundant, as intercourse is a form of sexual contact with women.
Have you considered the possibility that it is only redundant in your own head?
IF you have considered this, then you will obviously have went through various possibilities as to why it may or may not be. If so please list what they are for all to see, so we can see your thoughts process. Thanks.Can junuban be ceremonial impurity/intercourse when the same word is used in 28/11 and translated as afar/distance?
Yes it can (theoretically), unless you are implying some sort of "one meaning for all word occurrences" rule. Is that what you are implying?
And lmastumu doesn't mean sexual contact in 72/8. Why make it sexual in the ablution verses?
Do all translations translate it as "sexual contact" in the ablution verses? No.
Of course, the translation Eik used did. -
Peace Wakas
Have you considered the possibility that it is only redundant in your own head?
IF you have considered this, then you will obviously have went through various possibilities as to why it may or may not be. If so please list what they are for all to see, so we can see your thoughts process. Thanks.It's redundant in my own head because it says something that is already covered by the term lmastumu l-nisa. Not sure why I need to show my thought process, you could simply analyse what I said. Or not, it's up to you.
Yes it can (theoretically),
Do you consider junuban to be both ceremonial impurity and afar/distance as translations suggest?
unless you are implying some sort of "one meaning for all word occurrences" rule. Is that what you are implying?
In this instance, yes. The translation of the word has to be the same or roughly the same, although the meanings that can arise from different phrasal structures using an identical word can vary. I think we had a discussion in the past regarding the word ruus, where we came to a similar conclusion.
Do all translations translate it as "sexual contact" in the ablution verses? No.
Do you a favoured translation you use? Or do you have your own translation that you can link? Thanks.
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peace Mushu,
Not sure why I need to show my thought process....
So, I/others can see what thought you have put into the point you are trying to make, and the logic/reasoning behind it. This is often beneficial.
Do you consider junuban to be both ceremonial impurity and afar/distance as translations suggest?
Yes, as I have not seen sound evidence to the contrary.
Do you a favoured translation you use? Or do you have your own translation that you can link?
I mostly use www.quranix.net for general reading, and for detailed study, I often make my own notes. I dont have my own translation of these verses however.
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Peace everyone,
I don't find it to be redundant. It seems to be two completely different things anyway if it's not even about sex (which it doesn't appear to be). Which is kind of what I was asking as well... for any other type of interpretation.
The "ceremonial impurity" seems to be just that, I don't see why "intercourse" was brought in. Unless I'm missing something.
And if it's not sexual, then what's the issue with touching a woman that one needs to perform ablution? What about women who touch men, or women who touch women?
It seems the "progressive" translations are actually causing the confusion.
May peace be with you.
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fftopic
One correction... INDELWYN is a SHE, I am a woman.... lol
I was a big Lord of the Rings fan and even played D&D.. it is an old Elvish name which means purity
Sorry to disrupt, going now to check out those versus again mentioned in the post. Have a blessed day guys!
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fftopic
One correction... INDELWYN is a SHE, I am a woman.... lol
I was a big Lord of the Rings fan and even played D&D.. it is an old Elvish name which means purity
Sorry to disrupt, going now to check out those versus again mentioned in the post. ) Have a blessed day guys!
Peace Indelwyn,
lol You tell 'em! Though I already knew that, maybe consider displaying the female sign under your username? ;D It's under 'Profile' >> 'Forum Profile' >> then select 'Female' where it says Gender.
That should help rid the confusion.
May peace be with you.
