What momentous sacrifice?
-
Salam pvb,
If you think about it every plant and animal you eat is sacrificed. It died/was killed so that you may live by eating it.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam pvb,
You're belief that Isa is "the lamb" that was sacraficed may be based on the mis-translated Aramaic word "alif-meem-rosh-ha" (Amar-ah) in John129
This word actually translates as commandment/instruction/saying/speech or some variant there-of (I'm using a loose translation for discussion purposes please research the word for a better understanding).
Even the translators of the Peshitta had to FORCE the word to mean lamb.
It is translated as lamb 2 times (twice in John) vs the hundreds of times it is translated as I indicated above.
Each time they FORCED the word to mean lamb, in my opinion, they did so to support Pauls questionable and misleading writings.
Incidently "Alif-meem-rosh-ha" appears in ACTS 834 in the Peshitta and it is translated as "did speak"
Even in the OT the word translators usually translate as lamb is "kebes" (not that this is an accurate translation but nevertheless this is how it is usually translated).
The root word "Amar" is one of the words that means the same through out the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic).
Salam,
Arnab -
commandment/instruction/saying/speech - of GOD?
What is the definition when it is directed as labeling a person? John is specifically describing Jesus.
John 1
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32Then John gave this testimony "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."GOD is doing the sacrifice. What is He sacrificing? What does the Quran say?
-
commandment/instruction/saying/speech - of GOD?
What is the definition when it is directed as labeling a person? John is specifically describing Jesus.
John 1
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32Then John gave this testimony "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."GOD is doing the sacrifice. What is He sacrificing? What does the Quran say?
Salam pvb,
As I pointed out before the "lamb" is mistranslated. Second, there is no talk of sacrifice in these verses.
Salam,
Arnab -
The sacrifice I was speaking of was in this verse
037.107
YUSUFALI And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
PICKTHAL Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.What was GOD's sacrifice that they paid a ransom?
Then of the Bible verse
commandment/instruction/saying/speech - of GOD?
John is speaking of Jesus. What do you believe should be in place of the word lamb?
-
Salam pvb,
The Aramaic word "alif-meem-rosh-ha" (Amar-ah) actually translates as commandment/instruction/saying/speech or some variant there-of (I'm using a loose translation for discussion purposes please research the word for a better understanding).
The word "Alif-meem-rosh-ha" (the exact spelling as in John) appears in ACTS 834 in the Peshitta and it is translated as "did speak"
Even in the OT the word translators usually translate as lamb is "kebes" (not that this is an accurate translation but nevertheless this is how it is usually translated).
The root word "Amar" is one of the words that means the same through out the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic).
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam pvb,
I think you may have missed one of my posts on the subject so I'm quoting it here.
Salam pvb,
You're belief that Isa is "the lamb" that was sacraficed may be based on the mis-translated Aramaic word "alif-meem-rosh-ha" (Amar-ah) in John 129
This word actually translates as commandment/instruction/saying/speech or some variant there-of (I'm using a loose translation for discussion purposes please research the word for a better understanding).
Even the translators of the Peshitta had to FORCE the word to mean lamb.
It is translated as lamb 2 times (twice in John) vs the hundreds of times it is translated as I indicated above.
Each time they FORCED the word to mean lamb, in my opinion, they did so to support Pauls questionable and misleading writings.
Incidently "Alif-meem-rosh-ha" appears in ACTS 834 in the Peshitta and it is translated as "did speak"
Even in the OT the word translators usually translate as lamb is "kebes" (not that this is an accurate translation but nevertheless this is how it is usually translated).
The root word "Amar" is one of the words that means the same through out the Semitic languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic).
I also respect the fact that you are asking for references. So here are all the references I can easily give you on the word Amar
Hebrew
Strong's numbers H559, H561, H562, H564, H565
H559'amar
aw-mar'
A primitive root; to say (used with great latitude) - answer, appoint, avouch, bid, boast self, call, certify, challenge, charge, + (at the, give) command (ment), commune, consider, declare, demand, X desire, determine, X expressly, X indeed, X intend, name, X plainly, promise, publish, report, require, say, speak (against, of), X still, X suppose, talk, tell, term, X that is, X think, use , utter, X verily, X yet.
BDB Definition- to say, speak, utter
1a) (Qal) to say, to answer, to say in one?s heart, to think, to command, to promise, to intend
1b) (Niphal) to be told, to be said, to be called
1c) (Hithpael) to boast, to act proudly
1d) (Hiphil) to avow, to avouch
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 118
H561
'emer
ay'-mer
From H559; something said - answer, X appointed unto him, saying, speech, word.
BDB Definition- utterance, speech, word, saying, promise, command
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H559
Same Word by TWOT Number 118a
H562
'omer
o'-mer
The same as H561 - promise, speech, thing, word.
BDB Definition- utterance, speech, word, saying, promise, command
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number the same as H561
Same Word by TWOT Number 118a
H564
'immer
im-mare'
From H559; talkative; Immer, the name of five Israelites - Immer.
BDB Definition
Immer = ?he hath said?- a priest in David?s time
- a priest in Jeremiah?s time
- the father of Zadok the priest
- an ancestor of a priest
Part of Speech noun proper masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H559
From the Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
0118 - 'amar
Hebrew Word 'amar
Strong's Cross Reference 559, 3235,
Definition say, speak, say to one self (think), intend, command, promise. (KJV, ASV, and RSV reveal similar renderings.)Derivative TWOT Number 118a
Derivative Transliteration 'omer
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 561
Derivative Definition speech, word.Derivative TWOT Number 118b
Derivative Transliteration 'imra
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 562
Derivative Definition utterance, speech.Derivative TWOT Number 118c
Derivative Transliteration 'emra
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 565
Derivative Definition utterance, speech.Derivative TWOT Number 118d
Derivative Transliteration 'amir
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 534
Derivative Definition top, summit of tree.Derivative TWOT Number 118e
Derivative Transliteration ma'amar
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 3982
Derivative Definition word, command.The Niphal stem may be translated "it is said" and "be called." The Hiphil means "induce to say." The Hithpael conveys the force of "act proudly." The verb appears in the OT almost five thousand times. This common verb, as with its parallels in other languages, has a wide variety of meanings.
This verb shares with four others (pe-aleph verbs) the peculiarity of the quiescence of the initial consonant in a long o, revealing the loss of the consonantal value of the aleph.
The commonest usage of the verb is in direct conversation, whether the subject is God (Gen_13), the serpent in the garden of Eden (Gen_31), Adam, terrified, trying to hide from God (Gen_310), Balaam's ass in his attempt to divert the stubborn prophet (Num_222, the war horse eager for battle (Job_3925), the sea disavowing Wisdom's abode in it (Job_2822), the trees of the forest in search of a king (Jdg_98 ). It is readily seen that the verb is pressed into service in literal contexts, personifications, allegories, and strict narratives. A variety of nouns, clauses, adverbs, prepositional phrases are employed after the verb. Even when synonymous verbs are used (dibber, sawa, 'ana, shaba', nadar, among others), the verb 'amar can be used in the infinitive form with the preposition, i.e. le'mor to introduce the command, oath, response etc.
A usage often confused and incorrectly interpreted on the basis of a study of the English versions alone, is "say in the heart" (Deu_817; Psa_141). The meaning is "think," a subvocal speaking.
Although there are only a few examples of the use, the verb sometimes means "promise." Such is the force of the verb in a passage pointing to God's promise to David for a perpetual dynasty (2Ki_819), the promise to Israel to possess the land of promise (Neh_915), or Haman's promise to Ahasuerus to pay the king for the opportunity to destroy all the Jews of his realm (Est_47).
Although the Hebrew language has a well attested and frequently used verb for "command" (sawa q.v.), 'amar also serves for this meaning. This usage is found in God's command to Joshua (Jos_119), Hezekiah's command concerning the offerings after the cleansing of the temple (2Ch_2924), and Ahasuerus's command by letters to reverse the edict to slaughter the Jews by hanging Haman and his sons (Est_925).
As in modern languages, the Niphal is employed to mean that which "is said" by way of a current saying (Gen_109; Gen_2214; Jer_1614).
An interesting usage, though not a frequent one, is that of "avow," "induce to say." In his closing addresses, Moses reminded Israel that they had vowed through him to have God as their own (Deu_2617-1.
The use of the verb as "act proudly" is found in Psa_944 (the Hithpael). In Isa_616 the sense appears to be "boast" in a good connotation.
The derivation of 'amar is said by Wagner (TDOT, I, p. 32 to be no longer disputed. The root occurs in all the Semitic languages with either the meaning "be visible," "make visible," "see" (Akkadian, Ethiopic, Ugaritic) or "say," "command" (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic). It seems probable that the meaning "to see" or "make visible" is the original meaning. The semantic development to "make plain" then "say" is natural.
Of the more than five thousand uses of the root, the majority hardly need comment. They are close to the equivalent English word, "say." Indeed, the infinitive with l becomes often just a mark of direct discourse somewhat like the quotation marks of English.
However, the word "say" gathers various connotations from the contexts in which it is used and some of these are of theological interest. It is a question, however, how many of these special meanings are inherent in the word 'amar and how many are due to the context.
For instance, 'amar sometimes means "to command." These are cases where the word is spoken by God or some competent human authority. God commanded ('amar) Abram to go (Gen_121). The Lord had spoken ('amar) to Joshua and Joshua executed that word as a command (sawa) (Jos_119). But in the case of the Ten Commandments the synonym dabar is used to introduce them. At their end the Lord said ('amar) to Moses, "Thus you shall say ('amar) to the Israelites." Thus the differences between 'amar and dabar need not be overemphasized.
The word 'amar is used repeatedly by God to introduce revelation. One would suppose that this usage emphasizes that God's revelation is a spoken, transmissable, propositional, definite matter. The "word" does not make it a revelation. God gives the revelation to persons as one person imparts knowledge to another-by spoken word. The word dabar is used in such a context also, "God spoke (dabar) unto Noah" (Gen_815). The formula is frequent in Lev, "The Lord spoke (dabar) unto Moses saying (le'mor), speak (dabar) unto the children of Israel" (Lev_121-2).
God's word is creative. Genesis I has the phrase "God said" ('amar) some ten times. Half of these times it is "God said, let there be" and then it happened. At other times it says "God said, let there be" and then God proceeded to create. This creative word of God is signalized in Psa_339, "He spoke ('amar) and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast." The parallel word, "he commanded" (sawa), and the situation in Gen I may give us a word of warning against thinking that the "creative word does what it says" (TDOT, I, p. 336), as if the word had a power independent of God. Rather, it is God the Creator who does what he will. This will of God is expressed in words of command and they are effective because he makes them so.
'omer. Speech, word, thing, something. (KJV and ASV render in Job_2228, thing; RSV, matter)
A word of wide connotations ( cf. dabar) is variously translated in different contexts. Thus, the term under consideration has been rendered utterance, saying, discourse, matter, promise, plan, purpose, decree, command, and appointment. It is found six times in the OT. The references (Job_2228; Psa_192-3 ; Psa_6811 ; Psa_778 ; Hab_39) appear only in poetic passages and the lofty language of prophecy (poetry). (It should be stated here that 'emer is used forty-nine times; some lexicons list the citations of both words together.) The parallels to the word are commandment, words, voice, meditation, prayer, and law (instruction). Unquestionably, the term most often employed for "word" is dabar, which is used of God 394 times with the force of commandment, prophecy, admonition, or encouragement. In Job_2228 Eliphaz advises Job to find his delight and trust in God, so that if he decides on a "matter," it may be realized for him. The Psalmist in Psa_192-3 refers to the "speech" of natural creation. The use in Psa_6811 possibly relates to the command of God. pictured at the head of his army with the command relayed by heralds (fem of office) throughout the ranks. The force in Psa_778 is to the "promise" of God to the righteous. The reference in the admittedly difficult Hab_39 seems to point to the "oaths" (that is, the promises) made to the tribes of Israel.
'imra. Word, utterance, speech, saying. (KJV and ASV similar, "word"; RSV, "Promise." There are thirty-six uses of the word, mostly in poetry (nineteen references in Psa 119; seven in other psalms) in the singular collective. Because the concept is a prominent one, it is natural that synonyms will be employed to avoid repetition.
Bibliography Heinsch, P., Das Wort im Alten Testament und im Alten Orient, 1922. Jacobs, E., Old Testament Theology, 1955, pp. 127-35. May, E., "The Logos in the Old Testament," CBQ 8 393-98. Mowinckel, "The Spirit and the Word in the Pre-exilic Prophets," JBL 53 199. Richardson, TWB, p. 232. Ringgren, H., Word and Wisdom, 1947. Rundgren, F., "Hebraisch basar 'Goiderz' und 'amar 'Sagen', Zwei Entomologien," Or 32178-83. TDNT, IV, pp. 91-100. TDOT, I, pp. 328-47. THAT, I, pp. 216-19. TWNT, IV, pp. 69ff. C.L.F.
From Vine?s Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament
Say, Speak, Answer
A. Verb.
'amar (H559), "to say, speak, tell, command, answer." This verb occurs in all Semitic languages and in all periods of those languages although it has the meaning "to say, speak" only in the so-called Northwest Semitic dialects (except in Ugaritic) and in Aramaic. Elsewhere the word means "to say" or "to see." This verb is med about 5,280 times in Old Testament Hebrew.
'Amar refers to the simple act of communicating with the spoken word. Usually the word is used of direct speech ("say", although it may be used of indirect speech as well ("speak".
The usual subject of this verb is some selfconscious personality?man (Gen_223) or God (Gen_13?the first occurrence of the word). Infrequently animals (Gen_31) or, in figures of speech such as personification, inanimate objects "say" something (Jdg_98 ff.). This verb bears many connotations and in some passages is better translated accordingly. The KJV renders this verb "answer" 98 times ("say as a response", while the NASB translates such passages "said." In Gen_98 we read "God spoke to Noah" (NASB); the specific content of the communication is not immediately detailed. In Gen_222 Abraham is to offer Isaac on the "mountain of which" God "tells him" (NASB). Moses requests Pharaoh to let Israel go and sacrifice to God as He "commands" them (Exo_827); the force of God's speaking is more than merely making a statement It is authoritative.
In addition to these frequently occurring connotations, 'amar is rendered with many words representing variom aspects of spoken communication, such as "appoint" or "assign" (1Ki_111, "mention" or "name" (Gen_4327), "call" (Isa_520), and "promise" (2Ki_819). Although not always so translated, this word can imply the act of thinking within oneself (Gen_442 and the intention to do something (Exo_214).
When used of divine speaking, this verb may refer to simple communication (Gen_126). Often, however, there is a much fuller sense where God's saying effects the thing spoken (cf. Genesis 1). The phrase "thus says the Lord," so frequent in the prophets, has been analyzed as a message-formula. Ancient Near Eastern letters from, for example, Mari (1750-1697 B.C.) and Amarna (1400-1360 B.C.) contain a similar formula. One might compare our letters which open with "Dear sir." Divine messages are often concluded with the words "says the Lord." The Bible recognizes that behind the divine speaking is divine authority and power.
The Septuagint renders this verb by over 40 different Greek words and most often by lego ("to say" and eipen ("he said".
B. Nouns.
'emer (H561), "word; speech." This noun appears 48 times. 'Emer refers to "words" in Pro_21 "My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee."
Several other nouns are related to the verb 'amar. 'Imrah also means "word, speech," and it occurs 37 times. One occurrence of 'imrah is in 2Sa_2231 (cf. Psa_1830). The noun 'omer is found 6 times and means "word, speech, promise" (Psa_6811; Hab_39). Ma'amar and me'mar mean "word, command." Ma'amar occurs 3 times (Est_115; Est_222; Est_932), and me'mar occurs twice (Ezr_69; Dan_417).Aramaic
Strong's numbers H560,H563
H560'amar
am-ar'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H559 - command, declare, say, speak, tell.BDB Definition
- (Peal) to say, to speak, to command, to tell, to relate
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number corresponding to H559
Same Word by TWOT Number 2585
H563
'immar
im-mar'
(Chaldee); perhaps from H560 (in the sense of bringing forth); a lamb - lamb.BDB Definition
- lamb
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number perhaps from H560 (in the sense of bringing forth)
Same Word by TWOT Number 2585?
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2585 - 'amar
Aramaic Word 'amar
Strong's Cross Reference 560
Definition say, relate, command. Used like the Hebrew 'dmar. The Hebrew dabar has no parallel in BA. The verb is often used with 'ctsind in the idiom answered and said, a common semitism in the NTI find it interesting that The Theological Word Book of the OT does not acknowledge that Amr could mean lamb. BDB seems confused by this and actually published a question mark after their reference number.
Arabic
From Project Root List
= Alif-Meem-Ra = command/order/enjoin, authority/power/dominion, counselled/advised/consulted, hold/appoint command, preside as a commander/governor/prince/king, experienced, become many/abundant.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmTo read the actual Lane's lexicon text on the Arabic word follow these steps
- Go to http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
- At the very top is a list of Arabic letters Click "Alif"
- Scroll down to "Alif-Meem-Ra" it is located a little over half way down the page.
- Go to the end of the summary and there are links to the pdf pages where you can find the word. (In this case vol. I page 132 is where the word is first found). When you click the link the pdf page will load automatically.
There are two times in the OT where Amr is translated as lamb (Ezr 69 and Ezr 717) I believe these are mis-translations as well. This is especially evident when one reads the context of the verses (IN HEBREW).
There are those of us who study the Quran in the same manner, we find translators twisting words from the Quran into a translation that is very obscure and we know does not fit. That is why you find so many Muslims trying very hard to re-translate the Quran. They are trying to erase the mis-translations that lead to mis-understandings.
If you want to see the Aramaic from Peshitta.org and compare how the word is translated and why I say ?lamb? is a mis-translation follow these steps
- Go to Peshitta.org
- On the left the is a list of folders. Click on the folder that says ?Tools.?
- Three links and a folder will appear. Click on the link entitled ?Lexicon? This will bring up the Aramaic Lexicon and Concordance tool.
- Type in the box ?rm0? the last entry is a zero. This is to bring up the word Amr using the Peshitta font encoding system. You cannot simply type in AMR since Peshitta has its own system. You will notice that the word is also typed in a backwards transliteration. This is also due to Peshitta's system. The zero represents the Alif the M represents the meem and the r represents the ra. It is typed right to left as you would read it in Aramaic.
- IMPORTANT make sure that underneath the entry box you select ARAMAIC ROOT. If English is selected or any other you will get a different result. The reason I want you to select ?Aramaic Root? is that it will list all the places where the root is used in the Peshitta along with a concordance to the right that documents how many times the word is used.
As you scroll through the list you will see how many times Amr is used and translated as ?speak, say, affirm, promise, etc? all forms of speech.
Then look at the times it is mis-translated as lamb.
Another tip if you go to John 129 where the word is located, highlight the word and copy using your mouse, you can then load the Aramaic lexicon and concordance for the site in another window and paste the word, click Aramaic root or Aramaic word from the selections below the text box and it will bring up all the instances of the word with a concordance to the right.
so here are some other facts on Amr
In the OT the word is translated as
Said, saying, speak or some variation thereof (the exact list is very long but I can give it to you if you request it- with the exact verse of each occurance)approx 5442 times (this number is only counting the root...not the derivatives)
The different times Amr is translated as lamb in the OT is TWO.
In the Peshitta the word Amr is translated as speak, say, affirm or some variation thereof in every instance except TWO.
It's like the old adage Even if you call a duck a giraffe if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
If you have any more questions I'll be happy to answer them.
Salam,
Arnab - to say, speak, utter
-
Yes, I see the word "amar" translated as "and said" in John 129. It does not appear to be the same word that is translated as lamb "immar" in that same verse.
I pasted the verse from
http//www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/4_John/Yukhnch1.pdf
.29
Lq4d
who takes
wh
He
0hl0d
of God
hrm0
the Lamb
0h
behold
rm0w
and said
htwl
towards him
Yhwl9
concerning
trm0
spoke
0n0d
whom I
wh
he
wnh
this isLooking up all the definitions
.29
Lq4d =take up, bearwh =He, it, is, that, those, who
0hl0d =God, god
hrm0 = affirm, say, speak, announce, lamb, sheep
0h =behold, lo
rm0w =affirm, say, speak, announce
htwl = to, toward, against
Yhwl9 =enter, bring, on, about, concerning
trm0 = affirm, say, speak, announce
0n0d =I
wh =He, it, is, that, those, who
wnh=
This verse needs to be compared to the greek too, because the disciples wrote to greek speaking people.
-
Salam pvb,
I am not talking about what they translated as "and said" in that verse on peshitta.org.
I am talking about the word they translated as "lamb."
The word in Aramaic is Alif-meem-ra-ha and when you read the Aramaic right below the word they say is "lamb" this is very clear.
Please only look at the word they say is "lamb" for now, then we can move on to the rest if you like.
And, I do not believe in the Greek primacy. Furthermore, I do not read/speak Greek at this time, so I would be unable to help you to any real degree there.
Salam,
Arnab -
LOL!! OK we are on the same page. Remember I am new at this!!
Does it have to do with grammer? This would be a new word for these people- a human sacrifical lamb. Would there even be a word to cover this idea in Hebrew?
The hrm0 lamb is connected to God and Jesus, a sacred lamb, a symbolic lamb. In Mark 1427 rm0 is in the word signifying Jesus' lambs, followers, Yhwrm0. John 2115 again His lamb, Yrm0.
-
LOL!! OK we are on the same page. Remember I am new at this!!
Salam pvb,
LOL it's okay I knew you would understand it. I remember how difficult it was in the beginning to switch between multiple languages. It gets easier though.
Does it have to do with grammer?
no
This would be a new word for these people- a human sacrifical lamb. Would there even be a word to cover this idea in Hebrew?
Yes, of course there would be a combination of words to cover this idea in Hebrew or Aramaic. The only thing is those words were not used.
The hrm0 lamb is connected to God and Jesus, a sacred lamb, a symbolic lamb.
Do you really believe that a word used thousands of times in THREE Semitic dialects (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic) to mean "speak, say....etc" all of a sudden in these TWO incidences means lamb?????
OR is it more likely that The translators needed a way to link Paul's writings to the ORIGINAL gospels and twisted the translation?
In Mark 1427 rm0 is in the word signifying Jesus' lambs, followers, Yhwrm0. John 2115 again His lamb, Yrm0.
The word is mis-translated in these verses as well.
Salam,
Arnab
-
How do you believe this verse should be translated?
Can you give me an example of those words that should be used to signify a human lamb, sacred lamb, Lamb of GOD?
If you type lamb in the lexicon there are more than 60 that use rm0 root in the word for lamb. Are you saying all of these are mistranslated too?
-
How do you believe this verse should be translated?
Can you give me an example of those words that should be used to signify a human lamb, sacred lamb, Lamb of GOD?
If you type lamb in the lexicon there are more than 60 that use rm0 root in the word for lamb. Are you saying all of these are mistranslated too?
Greetings pvb,
Ever eat traditional lamb kebabs?
http//bbq.about.com/od/lamb/a/aa072801a.htm
Exodus 2938-39>>
"Now this is what you shall offer on the altar two one year old lambs each day, continuously."The one lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight;
lambs
kebes (keh-bes' -
How do you believe this verse should be translated?
Can you give me an example of those words that should be used to signify a human lamb, sacred lamb, Lamb of GOD?
If you type lamb in the lexicon there are more than 60 that use rm0 root in the word for lamb. Are you saying all of these are mistranslated too?
-
The other thread got a bit side tracked, but I find what we are talking about on the other one very interesting. I am restarting this one here. Thanks.
037.107
YUSUFALI And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
PICKTHAL Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.My question is With what momentous sacrifice did GOD ransom Abraham?
-
How do you believe this verse should be translated?
Can you give me an example of those words that should be used to signify a human lamb, sacred lamb, Lamb of GOD?
If you type lamb in the lexicon there are more than 60 that use rm0 root in the word for lamb. Are you saying all of these are mistranslated too?
Why ask questions then skip answer given you in Bible?
human kebes; sacred kebes, kebes of God
Exodus 2938-39>>
"Now this is what you shall offer on the altar two one year old kebes (lambs) each day, continuously."The one kebes (lamb) you shall offer in the morning and the other kebes (lamb) you shall offer at twilight;
Online Parallel Bible
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The one
'echad (ekh-awd'
united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first
lamb
kebes (keh-bes'
a ram (just old enough to butt) -- lamb, sheep.
thou shalt offer
`asah (aw-saw'
to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application
in the morning
boqer (bo'-ker)
dawn (as the break of day); generally, morning -- (+) day, early, morning, morrow.
and the other
sheniy (shay-nee'
double, i.e. second; also adverbially, again -- again, either (of them), (an-)other, second (time).
lamb
kebes (keh-bes'
a ram (just old enough to butt) -- lamb, sheep. -
Salam pvb,
How do you believe this verse should be translated?
Translations are difficult to do (which is why we have so many translations of the Bible and Quran) and no translation should be taken as Fact instead of the original writing.
That being said, here is a loose translation of John 129And on part of the day Yukhanan saw Yeshua who was coming toward him and said (here is the word we are discussing AMR) behold the commandment/word of God, he who weighs sins eternally.
The words in Red are the word we are discussing AMRH
I always feel uneasy when giving a translation of a verse.
When focusing on just one word it is easy to show the multiple meanings. However when a group of words (each with their own multiple understandings) are strung together it becomes very difficult to be accurate.
Translations should be used to get you interested in reading the original translation.
NEVER as a substitution for the original itself.
Here are some difficulties I came across in the translation that I gave you above
The word ?sin? is a word Christians usually use. I basically used the word to give you a general idea in a way I knew you would understand. The word that I translated as ?sin? is more accurately ?to miss the mark.?The word I translated as ?eternally? is also sometimes translated as ?the world/the worlds.?
But the purer sense of the word (in my opinion) is eternally or something that is beyond sight.The art of translating will never be accurate. And some of the words in my translation above are debatable.
However, some words I am CERTAIN of and the word AMR is one of them.
Can you give me an example of those words that should be used to signify a human lamb, sacred lamb, Lamb of GOD?
I have never ever seen these words strung together in scripture.
Here are some words that arguably can be translated as human. I say ?arguably? because it can be debated whether or not this is an accurate translation. Furthermore each word can bare a different description of the human condition.
adm, Anash,/Anas, Nas, Iysh (and more)
The word usually translated as lamb is KBS
The word for God is ALH
The word usually translated as sacred or reserved for God is Qadosh.
I?ll let you string them together, I?m not comfortable doing that, personally. Since it is not there.
If you type lamb in the lexicon there are more than 60 that use rm0 root in the word for lamb. Are you saying all of these are mistranslated too?
I see what you are saying. I typed the word ?lamb? in English and saw how you came to this conclusion.
Then, I went through the verses to find the word AMRH. I found that although they list the verses to the side?..
these are the verses that contain the WORD AMRH. This does not mean that these verses translate the word as LAMB.The verses to the side only list where the word AMRH is located not HOW it is translated.
I would suggest that you do as I did and bring up the word LAMB again using the English search feature on Peshitta.org and go through each verse on the right.
Go to the actual verses listed and find the word AMRH within the verse and then see how it is translated.You will have the evidence you need to see my point. Which is that the word ARMH is usually translated as speak, say etc.
Plus, you?re learning Aramaic. bravo
Salam,
Arnab