Things not explained in the quran
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peace,
From the questions they ask, it is highly likely they have not actually read The Quran (in a language they understand). So, you have two barriers to break down 1) their lack of knowledge on the topic 2) what is the correct view on the topic
"salat" and "hajj" are brilliant topics to study in The Quran. You will be blown away by what it says. The first questions that come to my mind are
the root of the word "salat" is saad-lam-waw, and it occurs 99 times in The Quran, out of those 99, how many show it clearly means "prayer"?
the root of the word "hajj" is Ha(7)-jiim-jiim, and it occurs 33 times in The Quran, out of those 33, how many show it clearly means "pilgrimmage"?
You can get every occurrence here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmOf course, actually going through the occurrences and reading the book God sent us, sounds too much like hard work for some. In fact, in all the forum discussions I've had in Traditional Muslim forums, when I've said this, not one has actually bothered to do it.
"The most common lie is that which one lies to himself; lying to others is relatively an exception." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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When conversing with my muslim friends and relatives about my belief in the quran alone as the authority a few questions always seem to pop up. An interesting statement my muslim relative, may Allah be pleased with him, makes is that Allah tells us in quran to pray and perform hajj but the hadiths tells us exactly how to perform these rituals and cleanse ourselves before.
So heres questions to those that reject the hadiths and follow the quran alone.
How do you pray? the quran says to pray but doesnt really go into the ritual. Is surah fatiha necessary in your ritual
also
How do you perform hajj? Allah(swt) tells us in Quran that we should make the pilgrimage. What rituals should be done according to quran only.
SalaamPeace,
Respectfully.http//www.quran-islam.org/165.html
Bear in mind The Exalted God The Most Merciful is SOOOOO Merciful that He leaves many decisions to us.
Glory be to God.
Glory be to God.
Glory be to God.
Glory be to God.P.S. "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law,
when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"
6114"We did not leave anything out of this book." 638
"We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything." 1689
"We have cited in the Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature."1854
God bless you.
Peace. -
When conversing with my muslim friends and relatives about my belief in the quran alone as the authority a few questions always seem to pop up. An interesting statement my muslim relative, may Allah be pleased with him, makes is that Allah tells us in quran to pray and perform hajj but the hadiths tells us exactly how to perform these rituals and cleanse ourselves before.
So heres questions to those that reject the hadiths and follow the quran alone.
How do you pray? the quran says to pray but doesnt really go into the ritual. Is surah fatiha necessary in your ritual
also
How do you perform hajj? Allah(swt) tells us in Quran that we should make the pilgrimage. What rituals should be done according to quran only.
Salaam
Peace
The HiJ is explained in Chapter2 Verse 195 to 203.
As far as the Salah, my believe is that God mentioned the timing of the Salat, which is the time between sunset until sunrise (Tarafi Elnahar, and Zolf men Ellial).
As far as the way we should pray, I pray the same way Suni and Shia pray, but with little differences; please read my discussion on that topic at
(http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16691.0)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16769.msg167936#msg167936May God lead you to the truth, and when you reach it, please share it with me.
Peace -
There are many things not explained in the Quran.
And from those "many things" you choose to ask how to perform rites and rituals???The beliefs of "we should perform the rites and rituals correctly to please Gods or Godesses" actually had its trace in paganism.
Where each gods and godesses had their own specific temple, priest and rites.Bear in mind that the Arabs was (actually still) lived within paganism influence.
Circling up a rock 7 times? kissing a rock? seems very paganistic to me.. -
It seems pagan to me as well. So we should make the pilgrimage as the quran says. and we should worship and think of Allah(swt) and pay our respects to the holy sites. Would this be the hajj actually mentioned in the quran? without pagan influences in the hadiths i mean. how would u do it?
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Hajj according to the Quran
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/hajj-according-to-the-quran.pdf
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Would this be the hajj actually mentioned in the quran? without pagan influences in the hadiths i mean. how would u do it?
Mr Example got taught about ABC by X, Mr Example thought ABC was what X said.
Mr Example got taught about ABC by Y, Mr Example thought ABC was what Y said.
Mr Example got taught about ABC by Z, Mr Example thought ABC was what Z said.Why doesn't Mr Example study it for himself?
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There are many things not explained in the Quran.
And from those "many things" you choose to ask how to perform rites and rituals???The beliefs of "we should perform the rites and rituals correctly to please Gods or Godesses" actually had its trace in paganism.
Where each gods and godesses had their own specific temple, priest and rites.Bear in mind that the Arabs was (actually still) lived within paganism influence.
Circling up a rock 7 times? kissing a rock? seems very paganistic to me..Anyway, God says that the quran is fully detailed and all.
whoever says that the quran does not explain every detail of islam is rejecting the verses where God says that the quran is detailed and all.
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I think the lack of explanation on how to perform Hajj and Salat is probably one of the more troubling things for me when it comes to Quran Alone. For 1400 years people have been practicing Hajj and Salat in a similar way and the prophet is documented as also doing it in a similar way, but there are very little details on how to perform the rituals in the Quran. Why would God tell us to perform Salat at certain points in the day in the Quran, but then give us very little details on how to do so? What if I just bowed once and prostrated once, would that be classed as Salat?
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Peace
I'm new to this forum but I've been using Free-minds for a while. I have noticed that "prayer" is one of the most troubling things muslims have to deal with when comparing the Qur'an with the Hadith. The Qur'an IS fully detailed but the one thing the Qur'an emphasises is to use your reason and intellect. God hasn't lined everything out for you because its not that IMPORTANT, whats important is your PIETY and whats in your HEART. Not whether you pray to East or West or any other specifications. Here I will not take anything out of context but give you two examples of cases where people have worried too much about the detail of the Prayer and Pilgramage such that they've forgotten why they're doing it in the first place
"Goodness does not consist in turning your face towards East or West. The truly good are those who believe in God and the Last Day, in the angles, the Scripture, and the prophet; who give away some of their wealth, however much they cherish it, to their relatives, to orphans, the needy, travellers and beggars, and to liberate those in bondage; those who keep up the prayer and pay the prescribed alms; who keep pledges whenever they make them; who are steadfast in misfortune, adversity, and times of danger. These are the ones who are true, and it is they who are aware of God."
2177so instead of focusing on how to pray, how many times to do this and that, prostrate yourself and praise Gods name at the times stated in the Qur'an, AND focus on what is REALLY important as stated above. The Qur'an is a clear explanation; Glory be to God.
You can use the following Sura to apply to many things in the Hajj that I believe have no relevance (e.g. stoning the devil) to the purpose of the Hajj.
"It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God but your piety."
2237Bottom line is, we as mankind desire too many rules and guidelines, we want every little thing laid out for us. which is why a man-made hadith came about to provide all these laws that we desire so we feel there is no room for error. But error lies in focusing too much on the wrong details, focus on giving to the less fortunate, focus on praying with sincerity to God and not lip service. Focus on being virtuous and loving and respectful to all man, these are more important surely. However God DID tell us to face the Sacred Mosque when we pray, the times to pray, how to pray and what to do on Hajj (theres a whole sura on it and its repeated throughout the Qur'an) anything else is brought in by culture (forefathers) and own free will and because its not mentioned in the Qur'an it is not important.
Also, Prayer is NOT a ritual, its praising God's name and asking for Guidance (11-7) You don't to be like this
"Woe to those who pray but are heedless of their prayer; those who are all show and forbid common kindnesses."
1074Peace
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Peace
I'm new to this forum but I've been using Free-minds for a while. I have noticed that "prayer" is one of the most troubling things muslims have to deal with when comparing the Qur'an with the Hadith. The Qur'an IS fully detailed but the one thing the Qur'an emphasises is to use your reason and intellect. God hasn't lined everything out for you because its not that IMPORTANT, whats important is your PIETY and whats in your HEART. Not whether you pray to East or West or any other specifications. Here I will not take anything out of context but give you two examples of cases where people have worried too much about the detail of the Prayer and Pilgramage such that they've forgotten why they're doing it in the first place
"Goodness does not consist in turning your face towards East or West. The truly good are those who believe in God and the Last Day, in the angles, the Scripture, and the prophet; who give away some of their wealth, however much they cherish it, to their relatives, to orphans, the needy, travellers and beggars, and to liberate those in bondage; those who keep up the prayer and pay the prescribed alms; who keep pledges whenever they make them; who are steadfast in misfortune, adversity, and times of danger. These are the ones who are true, and it is they who are aware of God."
2177so instead of focusing on how to pray, how many times to do this and that, prostrate yourself and praise Gods name at the times stated in the Qur'an, AND focus on what is REALLY important as stated above. The Qur'an is a clear explanation; Glory be to God.
You can use the following Sura to apply to many things in the Hajj that I believe have no relevance (e.g. stoning the devil) to the purpose of the Hajj.
"It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches God but your piety."
2237Bottom line is, we as mankind desire too many rules and guidelines, we want every little thing laid out for us. which is why a man-made hadith came about to provide all these laws that we desire so we feel there is no room for error. But error lies in focusing too much on the wrong details, focus on giving to the less fortunate, focus on praying with sincerity to God and not lip service. Focus on being virtuous and loving and respectful to all man, these are more important surely. However God DID tell us to face the Sacred Mosque when we pray, the times to pray, how to pray and what to do on Hajj (theres a whole sura on it and its repeated throughout the Qur'an) anything else is brought in by culture (forefathers) and own free will and because its not mentioned in the Qur'an it is not important.
Also, Prayer is NOT a ritual, its praising God's name and asking for Guidance (11-7) You don't to be like this
"Woe to those who pray but are heedless of their prayer; those who are all show and forbid common kindnesses."
1074Peace
Indeed. You have well stated what matters. As I see it the Quran gives us all the hows that we need and the rest is to our freedom. Are we going to complain? If we find that a particular way to pray serves us well, be it a traditional one, it is up to us, but we cannot impose it if the Quran does not impose it, because al Quran karim gives us freedom to make our way. Freedom is necessary for learning. If everything is solved for us, why should we try or strive to go and find the whys and why nots. I remember reading a hadith even on that topic, where The Prophet tells a man who kept asking him on how to do this and that, and the Prohet ried his best to be helpful, but finally he said don't keep asking and asking, because I feel forced to answer you the best I can and therefore you will feel obliged to do what I say, and there is no obligation of any of this. I can't rememeber the thing literally, but the gist was that.
It is not important whether the hadith is true or not, the reasoning in it is definitely
right and shows how many of the "commands" of the Prophet and others may have come to be. We may be told something to avoid us trouble momentarily and we take that to be the "sunna" of the Prophet or a command of the Profet. That is tricky and we should keep to the Quran and oher than that help us with whatever other spiritual literature or any other knowledge we find wise and nourishing. And above all, be thankful for our God given intellect, curiosity and freedom using them and striving, not attempt to live in a cocoon and never grow up. -
peace Soof, all,
Al Quran = AQ
I agree that the purpose is more important than the act. This is emphasised in AQ many times. In addition to the signs/ayat you referenced 919, 2945 are other good examples. However, we must be careful, because we can give people freedom to believe/practice as they wish (as long as it doesn't impact our beliefs/practice), but if they say AQ says XYZ, then they must be prepared to bring evidence to the table, which of course is a requirement of AQ itself.
Also, thank you for referencing 1074-7, as it was not until this moment that I was able to disprove that translation
"Woe to those who pray but are heedless of their prayer; those who are all show and forbid common kindnesses."
The above is a very common translation of 1074-7, but I just realised that it is highly unlikely it can mean "common kindnesses" because "common kindnesses" are common! So that means those who pretend to be good and want to be seen doing good things would obviously be discovered if they were to forbid "common kindnesses". Unfortunately, nearly all translations have messed up this chapter. You can read an alternative here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12107.msg90809#msg90809 -
Peace Soof and Bubbles
Soof, you are right. Salat is not ritual prayer, and the word Salaat occur in the Quran over 70 times. Every detail of salaat is in the Quran for those who wish to study.
The verses of the Quran are fully detailed, and its words are completed with truth and justice
6126 And this is your Lord?s straight path. We have fully detailed the revelations to a people who remember.
6114 ?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
When God, the best guide, tells us that the Quran is fully detailed, and completed with truth and justice, that means that all the details for Salaat is in the Quran. God always tell the truth, and his promises are truth
1422 And the devil said when the matter was complete ?God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise...
I think the lack of explanation on how to perform Hajj and Salat is probably one of the more troubling things for me when it comes to Quran Alone. For 1400 years people have been practicing Hajj and Salat in a similar way and the prophet is documented as also doing it in a similar way, but there are very little details on how to perform the rituals in the Quran. Why would God tell us to perform Salat at certain points in the day in the Quran, but then give us very little details on how to do so? What if I just bowed once and prostrated once, would that be classed as Salat?
Bubbles, just look i had many unansweared questions when i first found God alone/monotheism, and started to follow the Quran alone. I trusted in god, and continued getting knowledge. I read almost every article and constantly read the Quranic verses so that god may increase my understanding. I remember i was patient, and prayed to God to show me the way.
I think the answears to your questions in your last post, are all greatly answered in one of Arnold Yasin's post in past thread. A girl by the name amuslim asked Arnold yasin questions about "how we can perform Salat", and "what Quran tells us that salaat is". In the thread below, you will see the questions of amuslim about what Salat is, and in the second post, her questions are answered by
Arnold. Read the posts on this threadhttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16137.15
Yours sincerely
David -
Salaam David_k
I had a look at the thread and Arnold's understanding of Salat is so different to how I have always understood it. Its troubling to me because for 1400 years people have understood Salat to be a ritual and the Quran mentions doing Salat at certain times during the day so how can it not be a ritual?When the Quran mentions doing Sujud; that to me means that people should prostrate and put their foreheads on the ground. The biographies of Muhammed and Sahih hadiths also suggest that the Prophet did this in Salat.
If Salat wasn't a ritual then the Quran should have used clearer terminology or the Prophet should have clarified what Salat meant to his followers, but instead historical accounts suggest that Muhammed thought that Salat was a ritual as well.
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peace Soof, all,
Al Quran = AQ
I agree that the purpose is more important than the act. This is emphasised in AQ many times. In addition to the signs/ayat you referenced 919, 2945 are other good examples. However, we must be careful, because we can give people freedom to believe/practice as they wish (as long as it doesn't impact our beliefs/practice), but if they say AQ says XYZ, then they must be prepared to bring evidence to the table, which of course is a requirement of AQ itself.
Also, thank you for referencing 1074-7, as it was not until this moment that I was able to disprove that translation
"Woe to those who pray but are heedless of their prayer; those who are all show and forbid common kindnesses."
The above is a very common translation of 1074-7, but I just realised that it is highly unlikely it can mean "common kindnesses" because "common kindnesses" are common! So that means those who pretend to be good and want to be seen doing good things would obviously be discovered if they were to forbid "common kindnesses". Unfortunately, nearly all translations have messed up this chapter. You can read an alternative here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12107.msg90809#msg90809Yes, I understand what you are saying but we can't GIVE people the freedom to practice as they choose, people will do that anyway. In no way can a human interpret the Qur'an for others. If a person reads the Qur'an with a clear mind and a will to learn, he/she will get the answer.
"Some of its verses are definite in meaning - these are the cornerstone of the Scripture - and others are ambiguous. The PERVERSE at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguities in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own only God knows the true meaning"
37So its always up to a person's free will to interpret and practice Islam as they feel it should be practiced. An example of things that ARE set in stone is how to pray, when and what to do before (how else can you interpret "prostrate". So God has made certain that there are many things set in stone and CANNOT be avoided (shirk, adultery, charity) but people will always use ambiguous ayats to justify their own practices. People will set up schools and guidelines based on these interpretations (which isn't wrong, it's all we can do). But only GOD knows the true meaning. But I do believe people can confer and see what we have interpreted and ask questions among each other (the purpose of this forum) to get to what we believe is the best interpretation.
Also thanks for showing a different translation of Sura 107. Sooner I learn Arabic the better.
Peace
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peace soof,
AQ = al quran
So its always up to a person's free will to interpret and practice Islam as they feel it should be practiced.
And as I said
However, we must be careful, because we can give people freedom to believe/practice as they wish (as long as it doesn't impact our beliefs/practice), but if they say AQ says XYZ, then they must be prepared to bring evidence to the table, which of course is a requirement of AQ itself.
Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it. These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
An example of things that ARE set in stone is how to pray, when and what to do before (how else can you interpret "prostrate".
soof, like you, I thought many things in "Islam" were "set in stone" before I began to study AQ for myself.
Some simple questions
Have you studied every occurrence of the root of "salat" (Saad-Lam-Waw) in AQ? There are 99 occurrences, how many of those show it clearly means prayer?
Have you studied every occurrence of the root of "sujud" (Siin-Jiim-Dal) in AQ? There are 92 occurrences, how many of those show it clearly means a physical prostration?
You can read every occurrence here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmThese topics have been discussed before in great detail.
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I cannot read arabic yet so I cannot verify what you are saying. I am on my way God willing. But you cannot deny that things are set in stone (maybe not PRAYER and PROSTRATION but I will get back to you on that) examples
Belief in God alone
Belief that God is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth, has control and knowledge over all things and is worthy of all praise
Belief that God sent down the Torah, Psalms, Gospel and the Qur'an to us for guidance.
Belief in the angels, all the prophets and the Day of Reckoning.
Belief in all the characteristics of God and the nature of the world (He was not begotten nor did He begat, He required no partners for the creation and maintenance of the Unverse, He did not create us for a pastime, there is a true reason for our existence)THESE are some of the cornerstones the Qur'an is referring to in the verse I mentioned earlier. These ARE set in stone in Islam. These are key for progression as a person devoted to God. In my personal opinion how to do "prayer" (which I now understand s-l-t to mean bond, prayer and many other things, but I use prayer out of laziness and habit) is open to interpretation, but if the cornerstones mentioned above as well as others are held in the heart while making this bond then this is to me is more important. I will research myself God willing about the contexts of the words you have stated and take it on myself to do the task you mentioned.  
Peace
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Salaam David_k
I had a look at the thread and Arnold's understanding of Salat is so different to how I have always understood it. Its troubling to me because for 1400 years people have understood Salat to be a ritual and the Quran mentions doing Salat at certain times during the day so how can it not be a ritual?When the Quran mentions doing Sujud; that to me means that people should prostrate and put their foreheads on the ground. The biographies of Muhammed and Sahih hadiths also suggest that the Prophet did this in Salat.
If Salat wasn't a ritual then the Quran should have used clearer terminology or the Prophet should have clarified what Salat meant to his followers, but instead historical accounts suggest that Muhammed thought that Salat was a ritual as well.
Salam Bubbles
Hope you are doing fine, and that everything is cool )
That are some good questions. However, i think the years were someone has followed something does not matter. Because as we know, the christians has believed in Trinity for more than 1700 years. Jesus was born 2000 years ago, year zero (0). But 300 years after year 0, christians changed the belief in one God to the belief in 3 gods (Trinity). So the years which someone has followed a teaching, does not make that teaching right in my opinion. Even dough christians has believed in Trinity for more than 1700 years, it does not mean that Trinity is truth or is a fact, because as we know, Trinity was an fabrication in year 300, and there can only exist one God, not 3 forms of the one god like christianity says. You can read more about the invention of Trinity here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/messengers/Paul.htm
I agree bubbles, and you are right, the Quran indeed mentions that we should do Salat certain times during the day. And to be honest with you, when i first started reading/studying the Quran, it was really hard for me to believe that ritual prayer can not be Salaat. After a while, i came to the conclusion that Salaat is recitation of the Quran. Salaat = Reading the Quran during certain times of the day. Salat is also the same as contact prayer. Because through contact prayers, we make contact with god through reading the quran.
And this Quranic verse back up that meaning of Salat that is presented above"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (2945)
As we can see in the verse above, God tells us to recite/read the Scripture(Quran), and this is connected with doing Salat. We can therefore conclude that Salat = Recitation of the scripture.
Here are the times of the day were we must do Salat
Quran 11114
"You shall observe the contact prayers at both ends of the daylight, that is, during the adjacent hours of the night. . . "Quran 1778
"You shall observe the contact prayer when the sun goes down until the darkness of the night. You shall also observe the Quran at dawn. Reading the Quran at dawn is witnessed."Salat can't be ritual prayer, cause ritual prayer is Hardship, and this verse below clearly says that god does not want to place any hardship on us
Quran 56
"O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative."Bubbles, the Quran has mentioned the word salat more than 70 times as i said earlier. And the word is not only mentioned where there is talking about contact prayers. The word salat is mentioned in other places also, places were god is talking about other rules and things we must follow in our daily lives.
It may be a fact that historical accounts have told us that muhammed have seen Salat as ritual prayer. And i agree that we can learn and accept things trough history. At the same time, as we know, there many contradictions in the history, and most of the muslims exists in the contradictory hadiths. When it comes to contractions in history, let me give you an example. Some sources tell us that Hitler was killed by his enemies, other sources tell us that Hitler killed himself. As we can the sources in history contradict eachother When it comes to hadiths, there are over plenty of hadiths that contradict other hadiths. Here is an example of hadiths that contradict other hadiths, from an article about hadiths
Sahih Bukhary
Bukhary narrates a long story of Gareer saying that the prophet asked him to get rid of a place in Khathaam, so he went with 150 men burn the homes and the trees and left completely destroyed. He was blessed and his men by the prophet.
In another hadith, Nafii said Ibn Omar said the prophet (PBUH) burned the Palm trees of Bany Al Naddeer.
These are just two examples of the lies in the SAHIH HADITHS books. First they contradict the Quran that depicts the prophet Muhammed as a most compassionate and one with a great moral character. Second they contradict other hadiths that clearly said that the prophet specifically told his troops during his wars NOT to burn trees or injure the animals, women or children.You can read the whole article, in the link below. The article showes us hadiths that contradict Quranic verses, hadiths that contradict common sense and hadiths that contradict other hadiths
http//www.quran-islam.org/historyhadith2.html
Yours sincerely
David_k
