Things not explained in the quran
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peace Soof, all,
Al Quran = AQ
I agree that the purpose is more important than the act. This is emphasised in AQ many times. In addition to the signs/ayat you referenced 919, 2945 are other good examples. However, we must be careful, because we can give people freedom to believe/practice as they wish (as long as it doesn't impact our beliefs/practice), but if they say AQ says XYZ, then they must be prepared to bring evidence to the table, which of course is a requirement of AQ itself.
Also, thank you for referencing 1074-7, as it was not until this moment that I was able to disprove that translation
"Woe to those who pray but are heedless of their prayer; those who are all show and forbid common kindnesses."
The above is a very common translation of 1074-7, but I just realised that it is highly unlikely it can mean "common kindnesses" because "common kindnesses" are common! So that means those who pretend to be good and want to be seen doing good things would obviously be discovered if they were to forbid "common kindnesses". Unfortunately, nearly all translations have messed up this chapter. You can read an alternative here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12107.msg90809#msg90809 -
Peace Soof and Bubbles
Soof, you are right. Salat is not ritual prayer, and the word Salaat occur in the Quran over 70 times. Every detail of salaat is in the Quran for those who wish to study.
The verses of the Quran are fully detailed, and its words are completed with truth and justice
6126 And this is your Lord?s straight path. We have fully detailed the revelations to a people who remember.
6114 ?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
When God, the best guide, tells us that the Quran is fully detailed, and completed with truth and justice, that means that all the details for Salaat is in the Quran. God always tell the truth, and his promises are truth
1422 And the devil said when the matter was complete ?God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise...
I think the lack of explanation on how to perform Hajj and Salat is probably one of the more troubling things for me when it comes to Quran Alone. For 1400 years people have been practicing Hajj and Salat in a similar way and the prophet is documented as also doing it in a similar way, but there are very little details on how to perform the rituals in the Quran. Why would God tell us to perform Salat at certain points in the day in the Quran, but then give us very little details on how to do so? What if I just bowed once and prostrated once, would that be classed as Salat?
Bubbles, just look i had many unansweared questions when i first found God alone/monotheism, and started to follow the Quran alone. I trusted in god, and continued getting knowledge. I read almost every article and constantly read the Quranic verses so that god may increase my understanding. I remember i was patient, and prayed to God to show me the way.
I think the answears to your questions in your last post, are all greatly answered in one of Arnold Yasin's post in past thread. A girl by the name amuslim asked Arnold yasin questions about "how we can perform Salat", and "what Quran tells us that salaat is". In the thread below, you will see the questions of amuslim about what Salat is, and in the second post, her questions are answered by
Arnold. Read the posts on this threadhttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16137.15
Yours sincerely
David -
Salaam David_k
I had a look at the thread and Arnold's understanding of Salat is so different to how I have always understood it. Its troubling to me because for 1400 years people have understood Salat to be a ritual and the Quran mentions doing Salat at certain times during the day so how can it not be a ritual?When the Quran mentions doing Sujud; that to me means that people should prostrate and put their foreheads on the ground. The biographies of Muhammed and Sahih hadiths also suggest that the Prophet did this in Salat.
If Salat wasn't a ritual then the Quran should have used clearer terminology or the Prophet should have clarified what Salat meant to his followers, but instead historical accounts suggest that Muhammed thought that Salat was a ritual as well.
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peace Soof, all,
Al Quran = AQ
I agree that the purpose is more important than the act. This is emphasised in AQ many times. In addition to the signs/ayat you referenced 919, 2945 are other good examples. However, we must be careful, because we can give people freedom to believe/practice as they wish (as long as it doesn't impact our beliefs/practice), but if they say AQ says XYZ, then they must be prepared to bring evidence to the table, which of course is a requirement of AQ itself.
Also, thank you for referencing 1074-7, as it was not until this moment that I was able to disprove that translation
"Woe to those who pray but are heedless of their prayer; those who are all show and forbid common kindnesses."
The above is a very common translation of 1074-7, but I just realised that it is highly unlikely it can mean "common kindnesses" because "common kindnesses" are common! So that means those who pretend to be good and want to be seen doing good things would obviously be discovered if they were to forbid "common kindnesses". Unfortunately, nearly all translations have messed up this chapter. You can read an alternative here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12107.msg90809#msg90809Yes, I understand what you are saying but we can't GIVE people the freedom to practice as they choose, people will do that anyway. In no way can a human interpret the Qur'an for others. If a person reads the Qur'an with a clear mind and a will to learn, he/she will get the answer.
"Some of its verses are definite in meaning - these are the cornerstone of the Scripture - and others are ambiguous. The PERVERSE at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguities in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own only God knows the true meaning"
37So its always up to a person's free will to interpret and practice Islam as they feel it should be practiced. An example of things that ARE set in stone is how to pray, when and what to do before (how else can you interpret "prostrate". So God has made certain that there are many things set in stone and CANNOT be avoided (shirk, adultery, charity) but people will always use ambiguous ayats to justify their own practices. People will set up schools and guidelines based on these interpretations (which isn't wrong, it's all we can do). But only GOD knows the true meaning. But I do believe people can confer and see what we have interpreted and ask questions among each other (the purpose of this forum) to get to what we believe is the best interpretation.
Also thanks for showing a different translation of Sura 107. Sooner I learn Arabic the better.
Peace
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peace soof,
AQ = al quran
So its always up to a person's free will to interpret and practice Islam as they feel it should be practiced.
And as I said
However, we must be careful, because we can give people freedom to believe/practice as they wish (as long as it doesn't impact our beliefs/practice), but if they say AQ says XYZ, then they must be prepared to bring evidence to the table, which of course is a requirement of AQ itself.
Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it. These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
An example of things that ARE set in stone is how to pray, when and what to do before (how else can you interpret "prostrate".
soof, like you, I thought many things in "Islam" were "set in stone" before I began to study AQ for myself.
Some simple questions
Have you studied every occurrence of the root of "salat" (Saad-Lam-Waw) in AQ? There are 99 occurrences, how many of those show it clearly means prayer?
Have you studied every occurrence of the root of "sujud" (Siin-Jiim-Dal) in AQ? There are 92 occurrences, how many of those show it clearly means a physical prostration?
You can read every occurrence here
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmThese topics have been discussed before in great detail.
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I cannot read arabic yet so I cannot verify what you are saying. I am on my way God willing. But you cannot deny that things are set in stone (maybe not PRAYER and PROSTRATION but I will get back to you on that) examples
Belief in God alone
Belief that God is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth, has control and knowledge over all things and is worthy of all praise
Belief that God sent down the Torah, Psalms, Gospel and the Qur'an to us for guidance.
Belief in the angels, all the prophets and the Day of Reckoning.
Belief in all the characteristics of God and the nature of the world (He was not begotten nor did He begat, He required no partners for the creation and maintenance of the Unverse, He did not create us for a pastime, there is a true reason for our existence)THESE are some of the cornerstones the Qur'an is referring to in the verse I mentioned earlier. These ARE set in stone in Islam. These are key for progression as a person devoted to God. In my personal opinion how to do "prayer" (which I now understand s-l-t to mean bond, prayer and many other things, but I use prayer out of laziness and habit) is open to interpretation, but if the cornerstones mentioned above as well as others are held in the heart while making this bond then this is to me is more important. I will research myself God willing about the contexts of the words you have stated and take it on myself to do the task you mentioned.  
Peace
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Salaam David_k
I had a look at the thread and Arnold's understanding of Salat is so different to how I have always understood it. Its troubling to me because for 1400 years people have understood Salat to be a ritual and the Quran mentions doing Salat at certain times during the day so how can it not be a ritual?When the Quran mentions doing Sujud; that to me means that people should prostrate and put their foreheads on the ground. The biographies of Muhammed and Sahih hadiths also suggest that the Prophet did this in Salat.
If Salat wasn't a ritual then the Quran should have used clearer terminology or the Prophet should have clarified what Salat meant to his followers, but instead historical accounts suggest that Muhammed thought that Salat was a ritual as well.
Salam Bubbles
Hope you are doing fine, and that everything is cool )
That are some good questions. However, i think the years were someone has followed something does not matter. Because as we know, the christians has believed in Trinity for more than 1700 years. Jesus was born 2000 years ago, year zero (0). But 300 years after year 0, christians changed the belief in one God to the belief in 3 gods (Trinity). So the years which someone has followed a teaching, does not make that teaching right in my opinion. Even dough christians has believed in Trinity for more than 1700 years, it does not mean that Trinity is truth or is a fact, because as we know, Trinity was an fabrication in year 300, and there can only exist one God, not 3 forms of the one god like christianity says. You can read more about the invention of Trinity here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/messengers/Paul.htm
I agree bubbles, and you are right, the Quran indeed mentions that we should do Salat certain times during the day. And to be honest with you, when i first started reading/studying the Quran, it was really hard for me to believe that ritual prayer can not be Salaat. After a while, i came to the conclusion that Salaat is recitation of the Quran. Salaat = Reading the Quran during certain times of the day. Salat is also the same as contact prayer. Because through contact prayers, we make contact with god through reading the quran.
And this Quranic verse back up that meaning of Salat that is presented above"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (2945)
As we can see in the verse above, God tells us to recite/read the Scripture(Quran), and this is connected with doing Salat. We can therefore conclude that Salat = Recitation of the scripture.
Here are the times of the day were we must do Salat
Quran 11114
"You shall observe the contact prayers at both ends of the daylight, that is, during the adjacent hours of the night. . . "Quran 1778
"You shall observe the contact prayer when the sun goes down until the darkness of the night. You shall also observe the Quran at dawn. Reading the Quran at dawn is witnessed."Salat can't be ritual prayer, cause ritual prayer is Hardship, and this verse below clearly says that god does not want to place any hardship on us
Quran 56
"O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative."Bubbles, the Quran has mentioned the word salat more than 70 times as i said earlier. And the word is not only mentioned where there is talking about contact prayers. The word salat is mentioned in other places also, places were god is talking about other rules and things we must follow in our daily lives.
It may be a fact that historical accounts have told us that muhammed have seen Salat as ritual prayer. And i agree that we can learn and accept things trough history. At the same time, as we know, there many contradictions in the history, and most of the muslims exists in the contradictory hadiths. When it comes to contractions in history, let me give you an example. Some sources tell us that Hitler was killed by his enemies, other sources tell us that Hitler killed himself. As we can the sources in history contradict eachother When it comes to hadiths, there are over plenty of hadiths that contradict other hadiths. Here is an example of hadiths that contradict other hadiths, from an article about hadiths
Sahih Bukhary
Bukhary narrates a long story of Gareer saying that the prophet asked him to get rid of a place in Khathaam, so he went with 150 men burn the homes and the trees and left completely destroyed. He was blessed and his men by the prophet.
In another hadith, Nafii said Ibn Omar said the prophet (PBUH) burned the Palm trees of Bany Al Naddeer.
These are just two examples of the lies in the SAHIH HADITHS books. First they contradict the Quran that depicts the prophet Muhammed as a most compassionate and one with a great moral character. Second they contradict other hadiths that clearly said that the prophet specifically told his troops during his wars NOT to burn trees or injure the animals, women or children.You can read the whole article, in the link below. The article showes us hadiths that contradict Quranic verses, hadiths that contradict common sense and hadiths that contradict other hadiths
http//www.quran-islam.org/historyhadith2.html
Yours sincerely
David_k -
Bubbles, therefore as i showed in my last posts, history have contractidictions. But as we know, Quran has no contradictions, and Quran never contradict history
Quran 482
Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictionsThe Quran does not contradict anything. Not history, Not science and Not reason.
Conclusion
As you stated in your last post historical accounts tells us that Muhammed did a ritual prayer. Historical accounts are not always right, and contain contradiction. The historical accounts in Quran however, does not contain any contradictions. So when God tells us nothing about Muhammed performing any ritual prayer in the quran, then that means that he did not perform any ritual prayer. And it the ritual prayer was a fact, it would had included in Quran, because the most important things + all the rules we should follow is detailed in Quran. So when ritual prayer is not included, that means ritual prayer was nothing but an invention in my opinion. -
Salam Bubbles
Hope you are doing fine, and that everything is cool )
Salaam and same to you.
That are some good questions. However, i think the years were someone has followed something does not matter. Because as we know, the christians has believed in Trinity for more than 1700 years. Jesus was born 2000 years ago, year zero (0). But 300 years after year 0, christians changed the belief in one God to the belief in 3 gods (Trinity). So the years which someone has followed a teaching, does not make that teaching right in my opinion. Even dough christians has believed in Trinity for more than 1700 years, it does not mean that Trinity is truth or is a fact, because as we know, Trinity was an fabrication in year 300, and there can only exist one God, not 3 forms of the one god like christianity says. You can read more about the invention of Trinity here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/messengers/Paul.htm
The concept of the trinity was developed from an interpretation of aspects of the Bible. Matthew 2819 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
What I disagree with is this idea that Salat isn't a ritual prayer and Sujud isn't prostration. Every Muslim Arab of that time understood Salat to be ritual prayer. If this wasn't the correct meaning of Salat then God should have cleared up this misunderstanding so that the Arabs of that time could understand. In the Quran, God says that the Quran is easy to understand. If this is the case then What is the reason for using ambiguous words like "Sujud" when discussing how to do Salat if every single Muslim for the next 1400 years is going to misunderstand its meaning?
I agree bubbles, and you are right, the Quran indeed mentions that we should do Salat certain times during the day. And to be honest with you, when i first started reading/studying the Quran, it was really hard for me to believe that ritual prayer can not be Salaat. After a while, i came to the conclusion that Salaat is recitation of the Quran. Salaat = Reading the Quran during certain times of the day. Salat is also the same as contact prayer. Because through contact prayers, we make contact with god through reading the quran.
And this Quranic verse back up that meaning of Salat that is presented above"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (2945)
As we can see in the verse above, God tells us to recite/read the Scripture(Quran), and this is connected with doing Salat. We can therefore conclude that Salat = Recitation of the scripture.
Are you saying that to do Salat, all one must do is recite from the Quran? The verse you provided in no way supports that position because reading the Quran and doing Salat are shown to be two separate things in that verse. With the logic that you used one could deduce that when God says " " that the sun and its brightness are exactly the same thing.
The word "Salat" definitely means prayer and the people of Arabia at that time also understood it to mean prayer. Since the Quran was revealed in Arabic so that the Arabs could understand then it would be absurd for God to use the word Salat incorrectly to mean recitation of the Quran. If all God wanted was for people to read the Quran at certain times during the day then thats exactly what He should have said.
Here are the times of the day were we must do Salat
Quran 11114
"You shall observe the contact prayers at both ends of the daylight, that is, during the adjacent hours of the night. . . "Quran 1778
"You shall observe the contact prayer when the sun goes down until the darkness of the night. You shall also observe the Quran at dawn. Reading the Quran at dawn is witnessed."Salat can't be ritual prayer, cause ritual prayer is Hardship, and this verse below clearly says that god does not want to place any hardship on us
Quran 56
"O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative."How is reading the Quran any less a hardship than praying in the traditional Islamic manner. In that verse God acknowledges that the intent of Salat isn't just to make things hard and that it is an important part of our spiritual growth.
Also in that verse it mentions doing Wudu before Salat. If Salat is just recitation of Quran then why does there need to be a washing process beforehand? Does that mean that before I read one of the Surahs I've memorised I need to do Wudu?
Bubbles, the Quran has mentioned the word salat more than 70 times as i said earlier. And the word is not only mentioned where there is talking about contact prayers. The word salat is mentioned in other places also, places were god is talking about other rules and things we must follow in our daily lives.
The context clarifies the meaning.
It may be a fact that historical accounts have told us that muhammed have seen Salat as ritual prayer. And i agree that we can learn and accept things trough history. At the same time, as we know, there many contradictions in the history, and most of the muslims exists in the contradictory hadiths. When it comes to contractions in history, let me give you an example. Some sources tell us that Hitler was killed by his enemies, other sources tell us that Hitler killed himself. As we can the sources in history contradict eachother When it comes to hadiths, there are over plenty of hadiths that contradict other hadiths.
Every notable historian has said that Hitler died by committing Suicide and Forensic experts have confirmed that Hitler died by taking poison. Perhaps an enemy forced him to take poison, only God knows for certain, but that doesn't mean that sources showing the death of Hitler should be ignored.
Sahiih hadiths and the Sira suggest that the Prophet understood Salat as a ritual prayer and so did the people of that time that spoke Arabic. The Sira are biographies that are seen as generally reliable by Western historians.
Here is an example of hadiths that contradict other hadiths, from an article about hadiths
Sahih Bukhary
Bukhary narrates a long story of Gareer saying that the prophet asked him to get rid of a place in Khathaam, so he went with 150 men burn the homes and the trees and left completely destroyed. He was blessed and his men by the prophet.
In another hadith, Nafii said Ibn Omar said the prophet (PBUH) burned the Palm trees of Bany Al Naddeer.
These are just two examples of the lies in the SAHIH HADITHS books. First they contradict the Quran that depicts the prophet Muhammed as a most compassionate and one with a great moral character. Second they contradict other hadiths that clearly said that the prophet specifically told his troops during his wars NOT to burn trees or injure the animals, women or children.You can read the whole article, in the link below. The article showes us hadiths that contradict Quranic verses, hadiths that contradict common sense and hadiths that contradict other hadiths
http//www.quran-islam.org/historyhadith2.html
There are so many things wrong with that article.
Sayings attributed to the Prophet that are deemed Sahiih don't contradict each other, or they wouldn't be deemed Sahiih in the first place.
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Salaam and same to you.
The concept of the trinity was developed from an interpretation of aspects of the Bible. Matthew 2819 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".What I disagree with is this idea that Salat isn't a ritual prayer and Sujud isn't prostration. Every Muslim Arab of that time understood Salat to be ritual prayer. If this wasn't the correct meaning of Salat then God should have cleared up this misunderstanding so that the Arabs of that time could understand. In the Quran, God says that the Quran is easy to understand. If this is the case then What is the reason for using ambiguous words like "Sujud" when discussing how to do Salat if every single Muslim for the next 1400 years is going to misunderstand its meaning?
Are you saying that to do Salat, all one must do is recite from the Quran? The verse you provided in no way supports that position because reading the Quran and doing Salat are shown to be two separate things in that verse. With the logic that you used one could deduce that when God says " " that the sun and its brightness are exactly the same thing.The word "Salat" definitely means prayer and the people of Arabia at that time also understood it to mean prayer. Since the Quran was revealed in Arabic so that the Arabs could understand then it would be absurd for God to use the word Salat incorrectly to mean recitation of the Quran. If all God wanted was for people to read the Quran at certain times during the day then thats exactly what He should have said.
How is reading the Quran any less a hardship than praying in the traditional Islamic manner. In that verse God acknowledges that the intent of Salat isn't just to make things hard and that it is an important part of our spiritual growth.Also in that verse it mentions doing Wudu before Salat. If Salat is just recitation of Quran then why does there need to be a washing process beforehand? Does that mean that before I read one of the Surahs I've memorised I need to do Wudu?
The context clarifies the meaning.
Every notable historian has said that Hitler died by committing Suicide and Forensic experts have confirmed that Hitler died by taking poison. Perhaps an enemy forced him to take poison, only God knows for certain, but that doesn't mean that sources showing the death of Hitler should be ignored.Sahiih hadiths and the Sira suggest that the Prophet understood Salat as a ritual prayer and so did the people of that time that spoke Arabic. The Sira are biographies that are seen as generally reliable by Western historians.
There are so many things wrong with that article.Good points, I agree with you in the Salat Subject.The following verse support your argument
(
Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma`il that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round or use it as a retreat or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). (2-125)
Peace
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peace Bubbles, belal,
The evidence and comments you are making for "salat" to mean X is very weak. This is not what I would call evidence.
The "salat" topic has been discussed in significant detail on this forum and the same claims/mistakes occur again and again. In fact, I will create a thread on it, to give people a brief overview of what I've experienced since joining the forum. Not implying a problem with the forum, just the pattern I've noticed.
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peace Bubbles, belal,
The evidence and comments you are making for "salat" to mean X is very weak. This is not what I would call evidence.
The "salat" topic has been discussed in significant detail on this forum and the same claims/mistakes occur again and again. In fact, I will create a thread on it, to give people a brief overview of what I've experienced since joining the forum. Not implying a problem with the forum, just the pattern I've noticed.
Peace
The Quranist (Ahel ElQuran), the sunist, the Shia, The Salafi, The Sofi, The Moslem Brother Hood, and most of the Moslem Sects pray the same as I do and Bubbles do; why do you think that your way is right and the others is not?
I have said before that we do not have to reject every thing comes from the other sects, even if it is right; and I still believe that Salat and prayer has been taught to us by our prophet thought generation after generation; Is like an inherited skill.
I will look forward to your thread to discuss further.
Peace -
peace belal,
When I actually sat down and studied "salat" from AQ, I was confident it would mean "prayer" but in a different form to what I had been used to in the Traditional Islam world. The more I studied, keeping this view became more difficult. There were some verses that didn't sit right and there were some that had critical problems for this view. The best thing I can recommend is reading what AQ says. I am confident anyone who does this will see the problems themselves. The thread I was referring to I made here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16883.0
In my opinion, one of the strongest and as yet unanswered flaws in "salat=prayer" can be read here
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
