Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws
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Peace Belalhammad
No offense bro, but it seems like you are trying to control others minds and their intepretations.
Peace
Instead of answering my question that "did God speak direct to Moses or not", so all can know the truth, you are attacking me.
How do you know that Arnold knows Arabic better than me? An 8 years old would understand the verse as God spoke to Moses directly; and if so, Arnold argument is wrong, and therefore, the truth is revealed to him and to others who read this topic.
Showing the truth is never about dictating others; showing the truth is what a true Moslem do.
If you choose to not confront a Misleading arguments, then do not dictate others to do the same.Peace
Arnold, my previous question is still on, if you would like to answer
Peace
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Peace Belalhammad
I am not attacking you. You have misunderstood. I actually think it is good that you challenge and question others interpretations. This is also what i do. However, when i saw in your lasts post that you said to Arnold that he "disbelieves in the Quranic verses", and that a "kid understand those verses", i thought i should share my personal opinions too on the discussion. If anything in this thread should be seen as attacks, then it was the "understanding of the kid", and the "disbelief in the quranic verses". Although i believe that you didnt intend to attack him with that sayings
The things i said in my last post were meant as constructive critism, not as attacked, as i mentioned earlier. As you can see, i for example showed you that God tells us that paradise is an allegory. What do you think about the verse that explain this? Doesn't this mean that Quran has allegorical meanings in its verses? Check out this verse for an example of allegorical meaning
Quran 1335
The allegory of paradise that the
righteous have been promised is that
rivers flow beneath it, and its provisions
are continuous as is its shade. Such is the
abode of those who were righteous,
while the abode of the ingrates is the
fire.I guessed that Arnold knows more arabic than you since i read in one of your previous posts about Salat that you believe the arabic word Salat = ritual prayer. Because as we know Dua = Ritual prayer, not Salat. Respectly, Therefore i assumed that your knowledge of the arabic language is limited. But i may off course have been wrong, and it is maybe only the understanding of the word salat you didnt know about, and that you are fluent in all other aspects of the arabic language. It was wrong to assume that your arabic was not as good as Arnold only through your understanding of the word "Salat".
So correct me if i was wrong and if your knowledge of the arabic language is much )
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Salam,
Please every body who read this verse, tell me, DID GOD SPOKE TO MOSES IN A DIRECT WAY? IS IT THE ULTIMAT TRUTH? hail
Yes, the words are obvious.
I know I'm coming back into this conversation a little late. I just now read all of the posts in this thread.
Originally, I had the same understanding as Arnold (and have said such) That God only works within his laws when he decides to intervene.
But, Belalhammad has brought forth some verses that would indicate otherwise.
This has caused me to re-evaluate my position on the topic. I am now doing my own research on the subject.
Insha Allah, I will be posting some additional points on the subject, soon.
Salam,
Arnab -
- It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.* (Ash-Shura 4251)
If Quran does not contradict within itself, then one of the following is true
1- God does not speak to humans directly (4251) and God did not speak to Moses directly as Moses was a human as well.
2- God does not speak to humans directly (4251) and God spoke to Moses directly; Moses was not a human. -
Peace rover
That was a thought-provoking and logical way of understanding the verses. Thanks for the great answear.
We can know understand the verse were "God says spoke to moses", as an allegorical verse. -
Salam rover,
Read the verse in Arabic.That is a poor translation.
But, even with this poor translation one can see that the word "except" is used and that "one of flesh" can hear the words of God with the mentioned exceptions.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam rover,
Furthermore Moses fits ALL of the exceptions most remarkably he was a "Rasul Allah." The most obvious exception in the verse.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace Belalhammad
Quran 1335
The allegory of paradise that the
righteous have been promised is that
rivers flow beneath it, and its provisions
are continuous as is its shade. Such is the
abode of those who were righteous,
while the abode of the ingrates is the
fire.Peace
The verse right translation is as followThe illustration of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire. (35)
The bold word is used to translate the arabic word "Mathel", which means an illustration or an example and not Allegory.
As far as the prayer topic, I think we should discuss in other thread
Sorry for the misunderstanding
- It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills for He is Most High, Most Wise.* (Ash-Shura 4251)
If Quran does not contradict within itself, then one of the following is true
1- God does not speak to humans directly (4251) and God did not speak to Moses directly as Moses was a human as well.
2- God does not speak to humans directly (4251) and God spoke to Moses directly; Moses was not a human.(
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills for He is Most High, Most Wise. (51)
And that is exactly how God spoke to Moses, directly and behind a Veil; Moses never seen God, and when he asked God to show himself to him, the following happened
(When Moses came to the place appointed by Us and his Lord spoke to him, He said (Moses) "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested Himself to the Mount, He made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7-143)
The Quran verses never condertict it self, but our understanding can be limited. Thus, God spoke to Moses, the human, without showing himself to him.
Salam,
I know I'm coming back into this conversation a little late. I just now read all of the posts in this thread.
Thank you for comming Back sun You came with light (Truth) that I needed.
peace
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Salam,
The bold word is used to translate the arabic word "Mathel", which means an illustration or an example and not Allegory.
I agree with this statement.
After searching the Quran, there are many examples of God operating outside of the laws of nature. Belalhammad listed some of them. I think one of the most profound verses in support of this fact is 349
Salam,
Arnab -
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Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; and to Moses Allah spoke direct. (4-164)
AND TO MOSES ALLAH SPOKE DIRECT
Arnold, How can you disblieve this verse "Kalm Allah Mosa Ta-Kliman"? confused
Please every body who read this verse, tell me, DID GOD SPOKE TO MOSES IN A DIRECT WAY? IS IT THE ULTIMAT TRUTH? hail
Peace
Peace,
I see communicating not as breaking any laws of nature, which I have clearly stated in my articles. So using this as "proof" is a waste of time.
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The bold word is used to translate the arabic word "Mathel", which means an illustration or an example and not Allegory.
Miim-Tha-Lam = Stand erect, mutilate or castrate (namely a sheep or goat), to set up a thing, affect to be like or to imitate a thing, apply a proverb, apply a thing proverbially, be nearly in a sound or healthy state, near to convalescence, obey/follow a command or order, to resemble, be of likeness or equivalent.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm
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Salam,
I agree with this statement.
After searching the Quran, there are many examples of God operating outside of the laws of nature. Belalhammad listed some of them. I think one of the most profound verses in support of this fact is 349
Salam,
ArnabPeace,
I have already addressed this verse completely in my essay and in many previous discussions, but since people rather take time to "attack" instead of first researching themselves I'll hold your hand and let's go through the verse
Warasoolan ila banee isra-eelaannee qad ji/tukum bi-ayatin min rabbikum annee akhluqulakum mina altteeni kahay-ati alttayrifaanfukhu feehi fayakoonu tayran bi-ithni Allahiwaobri-o al-akmaha waal-abrasa waohyeealmawta bi-ithni Allahi waonabbi-okum bimata/kuloona wama taddakhiroona fee buyootikum inna fee thalikalaayatan lakum in kuntum mu/mineena
Warasoolan/and a messenger ila banee isra-eelaannee/ to the tribe/relatives of Israel qad ji/tukum bi-ayatin min rabbikum/ Hear me, I come with a sign of your Developer annee akhluqulakum mina altteeni kahay-ati alttayrifaan/I will create through a process a living Tayrifaan from mud
Ok, what does Tair mean in Arabic? It means to fly/hasten. It was used for any animal that was fast like horses, birds, insects. It was also used for cavalery and even soldiers themselves. It was also used for omen and destiny since the Arabs tried to predict omens by looking at which directions birds flew too. This was part of many mythologies on earth. It also was used for famous people as their status was high as a bird. Let' s see how the Qur'an also uses Tair
7131 ........ they blamed it on the bad omen/yattayyaroo of Moses and his companions. Most people know not that there is no such thing as a bad omen or a good omen/ta-iruhum. People determine their destiny according to Allah?s Laws. In that sense, then, omens are with Allah alone.
2747 They answered, "We consider you, and your companions a bad omen/ittayyarna for us." He said, "Your omen/ta-iru is determined by Allah?s Laws. Nay, you are but a folk who are being tested."
3619 The Messengers replied, "Your destiny/ta-iru rests with yourselves, now that you have been reminded. (There is no such thing as a bad omen 1713). Nay, but you are a people who are wasting away your potentials.? (1012).
1713 All deeds/ ta-ira of the humans are instantly recorded on their ?Self?, as if the record book is fastened to their own necks. And We shall bring forth this record book wide open to them on the Day of Resurrection.
So the word Tair in this verse can as much mean Omen/destiny/deeds/future as it can mean bird or horses. This has nothing to do with literal or allegorical reading, but with the multiple meaning sof one word in Arabic, this is also the power of Arabic.
faanfukhu feehi fayakoonu tayran bi-ithni Allahi / in it I will breath/infuse so it will become like tayran with Allah's permission
The first Tayran can be LITERALLY read as omen/destiny/bird/horses/soldiers/future/fame and the second one also.
So it can be understood as
Warasoolan/and a messenger ila banee isra-eelaannee/ to the tribe/relatives of Israel qad ji/tukum bi-ayatin min rabbikum/ Hear me, I come with a sign of your Developer annee akhluqulakum mina altteeni kahay-ati alttayrifaan/I will create through a process a living Tayrifaan from mud faanfukhu feehi fayakoonu tayran bi-ithni Allahi / in it I will breath/infuse so it will become like tayran with Allah's permission
and a messenger to the tribe/relatives of Israel Hear me, I come with a sign of your Developer I will create through a process a living destiny from mud in it I will breath/infuse so it will become like a high-flying bird/fame with Allah's permission
waobri-o al-akmaha/ and I free/remove/set free/make safe/healthy/cure/ heal/ fashion/ restore the akmaha/blind.
akmaha from Kamaha which according to Taj-Alroos is equal and comes from to Ghamma which means covered, veiled, concealed, confusedness, obscureness, calamity, misfortune. In 218 the Qur'an uses a similair meaning
Summun/deaf bukmun/from you AAumyun/blind/confused/puzzled/misguided fahum/ so they are layarjiAAoona/non-returning
Deaf, dumb and blind and confused; and they return not.
Both Ghamma as Aimy have the meanings of being blind and confused and being a sad person and are used as examples of how a person is blind of reason and are thus . See
3153....you grief for (his) grief ghammanbighammin
2040...fanajjaynaka mina alghammi We delivered thee from great distress
Also Kamaha means to wander around aimlessly LITERALLY.
So waobri-o al-akmaha can LITERALLY meanwaobri-o al-akmaha/ and I free/remove/set free/make safe/healthy/cure/ heal/ fashion/ restore the akmaha/ blind by confusion and are thus sorrowful and distressed and weandering around aimlessly.
waal-abrasa /and of Al-Abrasa
The word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a disease that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Probably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth.
waal-abrasa /and of Al-Abrasa/are barren (of potential/growth) and thus have misfortune.
waohyeealmawta bi-ithni Allahi /and make the dead living by Allah's leave.
Maut means death, but also LITERALLY MEANS dead by grief, to become still, wind that stops blowing.
The Qur'an uses al-maut/dead also
2780 But verily, you cannot make the dead/al-maut hear, nor can you make the deaf of heart to hear the call when they turn back to retreat.
And the above clearly refers to the ones dead of knowledge and progress as it refers to hearing the revelation
2779 Therefor (O Muhammad) put thy trust in Allah, for thou (standest) on the plain Truth.
2781 Nor canst thou lead the blind out of their error. Thou canst make none to hear, save those who believe Our revelations and who have surrendered.So the Qur'an uses the dead metaphorically
6122 Is one who was dead and to whom We
gave life, and We made for him a light to
walk with amongst the people, as one
whose example is in darkness and he
will not exit from it? It is such that the
work of the ingrates has been adorned
for them.824 O you who acknowledge, answer the call
of God and His messenger when he calls
you to what will grant you life. Know
that God comes between a person and
his heart, and that to Him you will be
gathered.3522 Nor equal are the living and the dead;
God causes whomever He wills to hear.
You cannot make those who are in the
graves hear.*Just as the Qur'an (and thus every revelation) is called a Healing and medicine/shifa
4144 Now if We had made it a Qur'an in a non-Arabic tongue they would surely have said, "Why is it that its verses have not been made clear? Why - a foreign tongue and an Arab?" Say, "For those who accept it, this is a Guidance and medicine for a wholesome life. But as for those who will not believe (Arabs or non-Arabs), in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them. They are like people who are called to from afar. (26200)
1057 O people, advice has come to you from
your Lord and a remedy for what is in
the chests, and a guidance and mercy
for those who acknowledge.And importantly, God has given specific rules on death
3942 God takes the person when it dies, and
during their sleep. He then keeps those
that have been overtaken by death, and
He sends the others back until a
predetermined time. In that are signs for
a people who will think.23100 "So that I may do good in what I have
left behind." No, it is but a word he is
speaking. There is a barrier to prevent
them from going back until the day
they are all resurrected.*And for those saying that God gave permission to raise the dead, then He must have said this in 23100 also otherwise it creates a contradiction in my eyes. This is also why in the other stories as 2259 I see it as a metaphorical story since the dead are LITERALLY BEHIND A BARRIER.
waonabbi-okum bimata/kuloona
And I announce/declare what you eat
wama taddakhiroona fee buyootikum inna fee thalikalaayatan lakum in kuntum mu/mineena
And what you hoard/you store/you stock/you accumulate in your houses Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be convinced.
So let's put them together
And a messenger to the tribe/relatives of Israel Hear me, I come with a sign of your Developer I will create through a process a living destiny from mud in it I will breath/infuse so it will become like a high-flying bird/fame with Allah's permission.
and I free/remove/set free/make safe/healthy/cure/ heal/ fashion/ restore the akmaha/ blind by confusion and are thus sorrowful and distressed and walk around aimlessly
and are barren (of potential/growth) and thus have misfortune
and make the dead (of potential) living by Allah's leave (2780)
And I announce/declare what you eat
And what you hoard/you store/you stock/you accumulate in your houses Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be convinced.
This is a LITERAL reading of the Qur'an using ITS OWN TEXT. As I have done with the other verses discussed. I see no miracle above, I see a messenger who cured a people of its problems using revelation which addressed their unfair dealing and sharing of food. So to claim you read things literal and I do not is not only showing people's ignorance but also people's arrogance and limited understanding of the Qur'anic message and its relationship with nature (3191) and reason. I respect anyone not agreeing with me, but I do not respect false accusations.
But indeed
218 Deaf, dumb and blind and confused...
1591 The ones who have taken the Quran apart.
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Miim-Tha-Lam = Stand erect, mutilate or castrate (namely a sheep or goat), to set up a thing, affect to be like or to imitate a thing, apply a proverb, apply a thing proverbially, be nearly in a sound or healthy state, near to convalescence, obey/follow a command or order, to resemble, be of likeness or equivalent.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm
So do not confuse your limited 8 year old modern Arabic with the mature Classic Arabic.
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So do not confuse your limited 8 year old modern Arabic with the mature Classic Arabic.
rotfl
Miim-Tha-Lam = Stand erect, mutilate or castrate (namely a sheep or goat), to set up a thing, affect to be like or to imitate a thing, apply a proverb, apply a thing proverbially, be nearly in a sound or healthy state, near to convalescence, obey/follow a command or order, to resemble, be of likeness or equivalent.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm
So the verse could be, per your translation
A "likeness or equivalent" of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire. (35)
I do not see a differances between what I wrote before and now
Peace
The verse right translation is as followThe illustration of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire. (35)
The bold word is used to translate the arabic word "Mathel", which means an illustration or an example and not Allegory.
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So, you agree that God spoke to Moses Driect?
Yes, I say clearly in my articles that communication is not breaking the laws and not intervening by breaking/ignoring the established laws of the universe. Communication to guide mankind is the same as the instincts given to animals. That God spoke to Moses directly I believe does not mean by the use of air-vibration but by information exchange using the Quantum Field which connects all our brains with the whole universe. But only to Moses it is known how it felt.
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Yes, I say clearly in my articles that communication is not breaking the laws and not intervening by breaking/ignoring the established laws of the universe. Communication to guide mankind is the same as the instincts given to animals. That God spoke to Moses directly I believe does not mean by the use of air-vibration but by information exchange using the Quantum Field which connects all our brains with the whole universe. But only to Moses it is known how it felt.
The way the verse means, in arabic, is that Moses spoke to God "KaLam Allah Moses Taklima", which means a direct TALK and not through A Radio Waive.
So, how about that verse
(
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us and his Lord spoke to him, He said (Moses) "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested Himself to the Mount, He made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7-143)Do you believe that the Mount exploded and became dust?
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In Arabic, ANYTHING THAT WALKS ON THE EARTH is called a so it has nothing to with an animal specifically, it can talk about humans or even an alien species talking to mankind in the far future.
Lets use the Quran to show the truth about this example
(٨
There is not an animal ?DABA? on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. (6-3Can you note that God says that the Community of ?Daba? is like the Community of ?Human being?; that would mean if ?DABA? means ?Human?, God would be saying that the Community of ?Humans? is like the Community of ?Humans?!!!
(٠
How many are the animals (DABA) that carry not their own sustenance? It is Allah Who feeds (both) them and you for He hears and knows (all things). (29-60)Can you note that God is making a clear distinction between DABA and us? If there is no deferent, God would not have said and you (Humans).
(٣ (٤
Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe. (3) And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals (DABA) are scattered (by creation), are Signs for those of assured Faith. (45-4)When God says that us (yourself) and DABA, he is telling us that we are different from DABA. In other words, when God mention us he does not use DABA unless we deserve to be called DABA! The ones who choose to not reason and think, God says that they are like animals or worse.
(٨
Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees the animals (DABA); and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment and such as Allah shall disgrace none can rise to honor for Allah carries out all that He wills. (22-1Can you note how God is making a clear distinction between heavens, earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Hills, Trees, Animals (DABA), and Mankind (Humans). Why God calls his different creatures using deferent Names?
(٨
And so amongst men and crawling creatures (DABA) and cattle (Anaam), are they of various colors. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants who have knowledge for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (35-2MEN & DABA are two creatures that God calls them using different names.
Thus,
(
And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth a DABA D to speak to them, saying "for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs." (27-82)
A Talking Animal is what God Means, in his verse
Peace
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Yes, I say clearly in my articles that communication is not breaking the laws and not intervening by breaking/ignoring the established laws of the universe. Communication to guide mankind is the same as the instincts given to animals. That God spoke to Moses directly I believe does not mean by the use of air-vibration but by information exchange using the Quantum Field which connects all our brains with the whole universe. But only to Moses it is known how it felt.
Salam,
Objects on the Quantum level follow a different set of laws than "we" do on a macro level. I am assuming you have studied Quantum theory and do not need examples.
If you are relying on Quantum theory to explain God talking to Moses, then you can also do the same for any other "miracle" that occurs.
Because, for instance, if God used Quantum mechanics to produce results in the Macro universe (ie talking to Moses).
Then, you can use this understanding to explain Isa giving life to clay birds to make them fly (by God's permission). Or God producing an animal that talks.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
Objects on the Quantum level follow a different set of laws than "we" do on a macro level. I am assuming you have studied Quantum theory and do not need examples.
If you are relying on Quantum theory to explain God talking to Moses, then you can also do the same for any other "miracle" that occurs.
Because, for instance, if God used Quantum mechanics to produce results in the Macro universe (ie talking to Moses).
Then, you can use this understanding to explain Isa giving life to clay birds to make them fly (by God's permission). Or God producing an animal that talks.
Salam,
ArnabArnab
Greetings.According to quantum mind hypothesis classical mechanics cannot explain consciousness. Brain's functions are a function of quantum entanglement and superposition. This forms the basis of consciousness.
This is just a theory supported by minority. No evidence has been provided.
Lets say if this theory is true then we can see how God can control our thoughts using quantum randomness (perceived randomness).
Quantum randomness does not exist at mecahnical level. Clay would remain a clay. How do you think clay would become a bird under quantum mechanics laws?
I believe, using quantum laws anything is NOT just possible in our mechanical world. Quantum mechanics cannot explain paranormals. The spookiest phenomena supported by known science is "quantum weirdness". That is about it.