My Understanding of 4:15-16
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Lust was used to translate the word ?Shahowa?. Shahowa is only permitted between man & woman; sexual desire that leads to sex is only permitted between man and woman; Sex is not permitted between Man and Man, Woman & Woman, Man & animal, or Woman & animal.
Therefore, Love relationship THAT leads to SEX is only permitted between MAN & WOMAN, according to GOD WORDS. That is how human use their Brain to reason.
Use the IF & THEN LOGIC to reach to this conclusion.
Sure you can LOVE your DAD, MOM, SON, and FRIEND from the same sex, but you cannot Have a sexual relationship with them or Marry them; why? Because it is a FORBIDDEN ACT.Peace
And you still didn't give me a verse saying you cannot marry another man. I want one verse that explicitly says it, that says its a forbidden act to be attracted to a non-blood man and marry him if you love him. You have said all this above but you didn't find anything? What about those who were born gay, what can they do to stop themselves? It's like telling us heterosexuals to abstain from sex, it's just as hard to be celibate for the rest of your life like Catholic Priests Their sexual desire might manifest in worst ways, if it is not maintained in a marriage regardless of if we're straight or not . Homosexuality occurs in animals, did you research on it? It's part of nature, its not something human beings devised to be evil. God has advised against homosexual acts of the lewd nature, but He has not forbidden it in marriage is my understanding.
Respectfully
SoofPeace
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Soof and Supernaught,
Look I personally never thought I had a problem with homosexuality.......but since reading the Quran I do. In the Quran its states, that men are the protectors and maintainers of women, how can that happen if you are shacking up with men?.....It states everywhere I can find the word marriage, that marriage is to a wife or women.....not another man.....never does it say that......
It says 7189 "It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to God their Lord, (saying) "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."
Notice it says her, not him?what do I know, I just hope I dont have a mate out there, that God, has given me.....(supposedly there will be signs of the mate I am to have 3021).....that chooses homosexuality instead..... giveup
Edit and as for men being like animals....hello.......where does it say to look to animals to see how to live ones life....?
I dont know, I am no saint, but since finding the Quran and since truly knowing the error of my past ways, I have restrained myself....( and yes its hard)
If you guys are really worried about your inability to not refrain from having sex with men, then perhaps fast...or....Get married to another man and hope God did mean it was ok, and he forgot to mention it....
And just in case pray for the female mates that God may have given you, that will remain in a state of chastity, while you do your thing.........I'll pray for you too.....
Sorry for the brutal honesty here folks.......I do care for all of you....
Peace
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Well, show me how I might be wrong about 415-16.
415-16 uses the word fahisha what that fahisha is......is not stated.
But, Belalhammad (in my opinion) has done a good job of presenting you with clear evidence and verses that indicate that homosexuality falls under the catagory of fahisha. Isn't that what you were asking?
I wonder if you're capable of having a discussion with me without resorting to ad hominem arguments. You did this in the thread on homosexuality and you're doing it again.
So, because I disagree with you on the subject, you conclude that I lack reasoning in my response? interesting.
Salam,
Arnab -
It says 7189 "It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love).
A point of detail that doesn't affect at all to the reasoning done by boomerang, but for the sake of accuracy
This first "her" (highlighted), gramatically feminine, goes back to "nafs", which is feminine and which is translated as person, whereas the "he", that precedes it in fact goes back to zauj "mate", gramatically masculine. It is in the next sentence where the two "zauj" appear sexed and the relationship is specified.
As to the question of homosexual alliances in general, I think we are talking about different things here sexual physical relations between persons, hormonal attraction between persons, a certain type of contract for having offspring, the individual need for emotional stability, the need for an ordered life... They are all different things. One would say that the need to interest both sexes in the wellbeing of the offspring favours that several of the elements mentioned concurr in a successful marriage, which is a legal pact. The more of the above mentioned elements present in contrating a marriage, the greater the possibility that it serves the persons and the society involved.
There is no reason why any two people (or more) could not make a contract to assist each other in the same way that partners assist each other, and even to share a dwelling and fortunes if that suits them. The different aspects can be the subject of a contract.
Now, what any two people, whether same or different sex, do in their privacy is of no concern whatsoever to anybody else. In the case of marriage (between male and female) it is of concern from the point of view of the offspring and its health and wellbeing. But if there is no offspring there is really no need to know for anybody if such and such people, whatever their sex, live like nuns or as the opposite, or if they lay cards in the evenings or tend the garden.
What we see today is that many times marriage doesn't gurantee much the offspring and that it doesen't seem to be as efective for the offspring as it could be. However non marriage would gurantee still much less. So there are functions in marriage which advice to keep it as and institution for the ukeeping of the species. May be other people who want to live in partnership may simly device a contract for just that a "partnership pact", so that the obligation of society and parents to the offspring is not diluted, an those who would like to maintain partnerships that do not entail the possibility of offspring can benefit from social and legal stability and protection.
However, marriage for the sake of offspring and offspring itself, including that outside marriage for whatever reason, should always have priority protection from the society.
Salaam
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Soof and Supernaught,
Look I personally never thought I had a problem with homosexuality.......but since reading the Quran I do. In the Quran its states, that men are the protectors and maintainers of women, how can that happen if you are shacking up with men?.....It states everywhere I can find the word marriage, that marriage is to a wife or women.....not another man.....never does it say that......
It says 7189 "It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to God their Lord, (saying) "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."
Notice it says her, not him?what do I know, I just hope I dont have a mate out there, that God, has given me.....(supposedly there will be signs of the mate I am to have 3021).....that chooses homosexuality instead..... giveup
Edit and as for men being like animals....hello.......where does it say to look to animals to see how to live ones life....?
I dont know, I am no saint, but since finding the Quran and since truly knowing the error of my past ways, I have restrained myself....( and yes its hard)
If you guys are really worried about your inability to not refrain from having sex with men, then perhaps fast...or....Get married to another man and hope God did mean it was ok, and he forgot to mention it....
And just in case pray for the female mates that God may have given you, that will remain in a state of chastity, while you do your thing.........I'll pray for you too.....
Sorry for the brutal honesty here folks.......I do care for all of you....
Peace
Un I didn't say look to animals for examples, I merely said it occurs in nature. I didn't say homosexual orgies occur in nature therefore we can do it ??? I said it is a natural thing, but a way of keeping it private and respectable where no-one can be blamed is in homosexual marriage. Animals don't marry.. so I'm not using animals as examples for Mankind, sorry.
Dios The Qur'an is clear to me. I don't think homosexuals will be condemned to hell if they abstain. But being a homosexual transgressor is the same as being a heterosexual transgressor, so either same-sex marriage although not normal or right by the standard of the Qur'an should be done to allow for this love between to men to exist safely. Or the men should remain chaste for the rest of their days. Which might not be possible for some.
What people are misunderstanding is I'm not saying gay marriage is a normal thing nor should it be taught to be normal. But homosexuality occurs in nature, it occurs in mankind. You can turn a blind eye to it if you are heterosexuals and give me examples in the Qur'an of normal marriage and partnership, I already know all this! But what about homosexuals who are believers and are faced with this decision? I'm speaking as a muslim I believe God is the Lord of Mercy, so there must be to me, something that allows homosexual men to coexist as partners like Huruf said. It would allow homosexual men to conduct their activities as muslim men without believing they are damned for hell, even though they may be devout. If there is no such thing and homosexuality is banned in its entirety then I pray for forgiveness for the believers. I will continue to learn.
ps Boomerang.. im far from gay, lol. )
Peace
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Huruf....thanks for the extra info, i have only been studying the Quran for a mth, so info like that helps...... )
Soof, oops! jedi (let me just hide now)
I have to leave this topic alone ....all my life I have been a supporter of peoples right to choose there sexual partners, without judgement, and I dont like what I am becoming here now....its only been in the last mth that i have changed my views.....I felt a connection with a man who is homosexual and we are now not talking cos I said how I felt..... ( '(..........I can hardly be rational in this discussion anymore.....Im messed up.... prHappy days and peace to you all
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4211 Initiator of the heavens and the Earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.
Mates =
Root =
235 And they cover their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are committed to them by oath, they are free from blame.
237 But whosoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.7029 And those who conceal their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame.
7031 Then, whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.3511 And God created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into pairs. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for God.
567 And you will be in three groupings.
568 So those on the right, who will be from those on the right?
569 And those on the left, who will be from those on the left?
5610 And those foremost, who will be from those foremost?788 And We created you in pairs?
26166 ?And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!?
Mates implies a heterogeneous entity.
Peace
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you know a good argument that homosexuals could use in relation to all this paring up and mating, is that the world is over populated as it is......Even without offspring though, i do still believe a man and woman together can help one another,. on this journey called life.........
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you know a good argument that homosexuals could use in relation to all this paring up and mating, is that the world is over populated as it is......Even without offspring though, i do still believe a man and woman together can help one another,. on this journey called life......... (
Boomy, boomy, don't tempt fate. There are too many warmongerers and invaders lurking, and also unknown flu virus and other pests looking for new worlds to conquer... Overpopulation can become a thing of the past in less time than it takes me to change mental sex, so don?t even mention it.
Concerning mutual help. Yes undoubtedly. There are a lot of things that man and woman can do to each other and, although not all necessarily helpful, some even completely destructive and anihilating. That is a part of the Exchange that cannot be overseen and which in fact can completely put off the other sex, the enormous power to destroy you that you put in the other?s hand. And then society (narrowmindedness, automatomatisms, prejudice, lack of charity, ignorance?) can, already even from birth, utterly destroy people?s sexual selfesteem, emocional self-assurance, mental stability and in fact make real emocional and mental cripples out of otherwise healthful people. That is why I say that the question of sexual orientation or preference or sexual disfunction or suffering of any kind or whatever is very large, very complex and it is well worth that a person who has conflicts on that area (might be we all) should do real deep introspection and try to find his deep honest soul in all sincerity and without any prejudice. Entourage can do real wonders to destroy individuals.
But in the best of cases an alliance (marriage) to a person of a different sex can be a real learning of humility and a satisfaction for being able to give genuinely from your heart something that costs you and of accepting likewise. In the worst case you can learn a lot from negative experience.
(As an aside, I know, I think that many of us know, that a number of gays are so out of pure undiluted lust. I usually don?t talk about that because that is plain and the equivalent of any hetero who also follows lust. However there is a part where lust and curiosity intersect, and that is a source of a lot of things that might have better not happened, since as it is the common saying, once you try IT you can?t leave IT. But I will not go into that here and I think we are talking about mostly other kinds of situations, which may have arisen out that, but which develop into something else.)
I apreciate very much the sincerity and honesty of people who have spoken on this thread. It costs, it is a bit like undressing (chastely), but I am sure every effort and sincerity and honesty for the sake of truth, particularly to oneself, has its rewards and helps overcome suffering and may help others to see more clearly, understand people better and also be less judgemental and more helpful and less self-centered.
Salaam all and may God bless all sincere efforts.
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Boomerang,
Islam, which is your faith, doesn't tell you to alienate your gay friends. Perhaps you're not prepared to accept that God doesn't have a problem with same-sex marriage, but atleast accept that God doesn't have a problem with you befriending gay people (608-9). Lots of people who convert to Islam make rash decisions about their lives, their friends, etc., but this is completely avoidable.
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The world as God has made it is a miracle. It is my experience and observation that no matter what wrong we may have done, once it is done, from that situation which our wrong brought about, there open possibilities to do right that were not there before the wrong. That is the miracle, wrong is wrong, but once you have the result of your wrong doings, with that you can do unforeseen rights, and that is a reason I guess, why God allows us to do wrong.
No matter where we are, where we come from, what we have right now in our hands is full of hope, is pregnant with something that can redeem us. We must look forward, God is so very generous. We just have to be quiet and see and listen and be honest and open. Whatever good we get is never us, it is a Gift for which we must be open, and however bitter it seems to us at a given moment, we must be patiente opening the package, because at the core of it there is always a gem.
Salaam, and may God bless those who strive
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The world as God has made it is a miracle. It is my experience and observation that no matter what wrong we may have done, once it is done, from that situation which our wrong brought about, there open possibilities to do right that were not there before the wrong. That is the miracle, wrong is wrong, but once you have the result of your wrong doings, with that you can do unforeseen rights, and that is a reason I guess, why God allows us to do wrong.
No matter where we are, where we come from, what we have right now in our hands is full of hope, is pregnant with something that can redeem us. We must look forward, God is so very generous. We just have to be quiet and see and listen and be honest and open. Whatever good we get is never us, it is a Gift for which we must be open, and however bitter it seems to us at a given moment, we must be patiente opening the package, because at the core of it there is always a gem.
Salaam, and may God bless those who strive
Im actually printing you post off and putting it on my fridge ....if thats ok.....I need this reminder daily....
kind of makes me a bit teary.....in a good way, cos I know that you are right and I know that God is so poignant............. -
I just read Yuksel's commentary on 415 . His understanding of 415 is similar to mine. I disagree with his theory that the witnesses mentioned in 415 can be organic nitrogenous bases (A, T, G and C) and his theory that the punishment prescribed in 415 is for prostitutes who've been convicted four times, but I agree with the rest of his interpretation. Like Yuksel, I believe that Quranic laws apply only to those who willingly come under Islamic jurisdiction (541-52 and 1096) and that 415 is about prostitutes. I also learned something new from his commentary. I learnt that Alathani, which appears in 416, can mean a man and a woman, or two men.
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I think the fact that the word Alathani (which appears in 416) means "Two men" as well as "A man and a woman" is important because it connects 416 with 415 even more since women are mentioned in 415 and I think God chose the word Alathani (instead of all the other words It could've used) for another reason too to indicate that prostitution is illegal for men too. Alathani is slightly vague, which I believe is the reason why God chose it because it's use allows several meanings to be conveyed succinctly.
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I agree with that. In fact it matches what I would expect from the Quran rather that the lose and non-commital jail them at home till somehow aan earthquake breaks the walls. Prostitution is not usually doen out of choice but out of need and for lack of a better issue. To take the women off the street is a way to protect them from something they themselves couldn't. I don't think it is a question of keeping them jailed till they die, because no punishment can be open like, that with the choice that may be something else happens. Rather than of a punishment what it seems to be talking about is how to keep them from going back to the same thing again. That it is necessary to have four witnesses is again to show that you cannot go about brandishing words that may speak ill of somebody and that if you say something so damaging for somebody's reputation that it is indeed a public thing. To me it makes more sense than homosexual acts interpretation.
Salaam