REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Peace Johnny K,
I hope you don't mind if I jump in...
While this might make sense the problem im still facing is why is GOD liking Jesus in specific to all mankind(your understanding of Adam)?
Because Jesus was uniquely worshipped as something greater than mankind, ie, God's son or God himself. This point is emphasized again and again in the qur'an to illustrate that Jesus was no more than a human messenger.
5116 On the Resurrection Day, Allah will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say to mankind, ?Worship me and my mother as deities besides God?" He will respond, "Be Glorified! Never could I say what was not my right. If I said such a thing, You would indeed know it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your mind. You, only You are the Knower of what is beyond human perception.?
5117 "Never did I say to them except what You Commanded me to say, 'Worship and obey Allah my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness to them as long as I lived among them. After You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them and You are Witness over all things and events."
Peace,
Tay -
Dear yasin.
you know that i appreciate your zeal to explore with a different approach, and of course i do take liberties with a younger brotherOn this particular issue however i would like to differ due to following reasons.
Any body reading all the ayahs of Quran regarding Jesus and Mary,and using a common sense has no doubts left that Jesus was born without a biological father, and there is hardly a material for a conspiracy theorist to build his case upon,
every ayah is screaming with over whelming proves, Mary being ashamed , not being touched, people accusing Mary , etc ,etc.why Mary being given such an importance, just because she was Jesus mother? why not other prophet's mothers, why not Mohd's mother?
Brother , you think that Jesus father has gone UN noticed in history? we know everything about Mohd's family, his parents uncles friends etc, just a few more hundred years back in history , and we hardly have a trace of his father, where as every thing about his mother is crystal clear?
Brother you have built your case solely on the assumption , that AS THE GOD'S RULE DONT CHANGE SO A MIRACLE CAN NOT HAPPEN but brother tanveer's argument "a miracle at a certain time is an undiscovered law" is absolutely convincing and true.
I like G,A Parvez too , he was a pioneer , a man much ahead of his time, but Yasin! no body can be right every time on everything, one has to pick and sift out the truth from every where, and that is what a sound reasoning mind does.
As for the miracles, i believe that back in time God produced miracles(through his undiscovered laws)quite often, to shake and convince human minds into believing and hence behaving, but as the time passed and our minds kept developing into sound reasoning machines, he kept reducing such shocks, and now,HE is letting us use our minds to appreciate his presence through other indicators and subtle logical coincidences.
peace
sikandar -
Peace bro "tay",
I hope you don't mind if I jump in...
JK- No not at all.
Because Jesus was uniquely worshipped as something greater than mankind, ie, God's son or God himself. This point is emphasized again and again in the qur'an to illustrate that Jesus was no more than a human messenger.
5116 On the Resurrection Day, Allah will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say to mankind, ?Worship me and my mother as deities besides God?" He will respond, "Be Glorified! Never could I say what was not my right. If I said such a thing, You would indeed know it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your mind. You, only You are the Knower of what is beyond human perception.?
5117 "Never did I say to them except what You Commanded me to say, 'Worship and obey Allah my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness to them as long as I lived among them. After You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them and You are Witness over all things and events."
Peace,
TayJK- Indeed i was expecting such an answer but why does GOD liken Jesus to Adam and not to "Insaan/Nas", the general terms used for humans in the Quran? GOD Bless!
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Salaam Aleikum,
Dear yasin.
you know that i appreciate your zeal to explore with a different approach, and of course i do take liberties with a younger brotherThis is one of the greatest mistakes under Muslims and especially under Quran upholders. When you study ancient commentaries, you will see that my approach was seen as normal. Sadly this is ignored the last 600 years. Since you are old, you should have known this
Any body reading all the ayahs of Quran regarding Jesus and Mary,and using a common sense has no doubts left that Jesus was born without a biological father, and there is hardly a material for a conspiracy theorist to build his case upon,
Based on what? This is the problem, you must bring verses.
every ayah is screaming with over whelming proofs, Mary being ashamed , not being touched, people accusing Mary , etc ,etc.
My dear brother, she lived in a temple, she got birth when it was not the right months, this is why the Quran clearly emphasizes on the ripe dates. She only says she was not touched then, it doesn't mention anything about the future. She was accused by people to commit 'bagiyaa'. This only means 'to go beyond the bounds of custom'. Also the people accusing her are the same people who believe giving a child to the temple is something that would please Allah. They are hardly a good reference for opinions or truths. You have no proofs except reading something into the text.
why Mary being given such an importance, just because she was Jesus mother? why not other prophet's mothers, why not Mohd's mother?
She was an example on breaking customs and not being afraid of the majority. Just like the wife of the Pharoah.
Brother , you think that Jesus father has gone UN noticed in history?
He is called Joseph and was known to be part of the Nazarene Temple at Qumran. He hasn't gone unnoticed. He died at an early age as recorded in the Nag Hammadi Scriptures. It shows you know little on Christian History.
Brother you have built your case solely on the assumption , that AS THE GOD'S RULE DONT CHANGE SO A MIRACLE CAN NOT HAPPEN but brother tanveer's argument "a miracle at a certain time is an undiscovered law" is absolutely convincing and true.
People want to hold on to things while you ain't got proof for it. Plus, then it is no miracle, just a rare natural phenomena. So stop calling it a miracle then! I agree that we don't know all the Laws yet. But there is no proof at all to assume such extreme interpretations. But we disagree then on this. But to keep calling it 'miracles' is nonsense as you say yourself these must then be unknown natural laws. This can be seen for example with the splitting of the sea, which is a rare natural wind-phenomena. I have a more logical approach as the Arabic is so versatile as shown in my book, to blindly hold on to unknown natural laws is not scientific and unlogical. When later on it is proved certain interpretations are possible, then we can discuss then what is more logical. Till now, 1736 doesn't allow us to believe in unknown laws when we have logical explanations right in front of us now.
Many interpretations are false on the Quran, the Arabic doesn't allow Jonah to be swallowed as the word means 'to bite'. Solomon didn't talk to birds as he says that EVERY person of his people could understand the mantiq of Tair. So this is no Prophet's miracle. This is just the top of the iceberg.
As for Jonny, Jesus was compared to Adam, as this is a theological confrontation to the Christians. If being born out of a virgin is so special, then their concept of Adam being born without parents should make him even more special then Jesus. This is why they are compared. The Christian concept of Adam is a direct contradiction on their concept of Jesus's position as 'Son' of God. From a theological point, this is not only ingenious, but also unanswerable for Christians. As to make Christians accept the Truth, their Theology must be first broken down. Since Jesus is their main idol, it is logical Allah directs the story of Jesus in the Quran towards the Christians.
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Peace Johnny,
Indeed i was expecting such an answer but why does GOD liken Jesus to Adam and not to "Insaan/Nas", the general terms used for humans in the Quran? GOD Bless!
Why does God...? is not my place.
We can only try to understand the guidance we've been given. In the case of Isa, it's crystal clear what the correlation is, as it's mentioned in the same exact ayah... "dust" and "be". We are "bani Adam", all created from "dust" and "be". Nothing special, nothing different, we are one and the same.Peace,
Tay -
A/A. to all.
I am just a new member on board.
I am working at a place where internet is seldom avavialble and more over I am too busy to find some time to look at intrenet. However, I will try my best to participate in the forum.
Quoran is commanding us to ponder on the verses which means do not jump on the reading straight away with out understanding the depth.
The time when Mary was living fonication, adultry was very common. Check Bible the old testament and new testament. She was raised in very neat and cleaned evoirments which means she was virgin.
When Mary started growing up Prophet Zakriya was worried to get her married as per the laws of nature. Mary saw a dream where angle in form of man told her that she will be become a mother of a son whose name will be Jesus. She replied how i can become a mother when no man has touched me. Does this mean she has not allowed any man to come to her like committing fornication or adultry. No , not at all rather she was trying to tell that I am not married.
The angle said that will be done per law of nature. Since Mary was dedicated to synogogue and Zakrya was scared of anger by the jewish people so in secretly she was married to Joseph Carpenter.
I have checked up with lot of doctors, biologists who compleltly negated the idea that a woman can concieve with out male intervention. Male always carry "Y" chromosome which causes to concieve a baby boy.
The christain Doctors and docors of other faith completly rejected the idea.
The learned people born in christians families do not belive in fairy tales and rejected christianity. So what Islam offers them same old story copied from New testamnet or some thing according to laws of nature.
Yes, this could be the only true story. If some has better expalination please do inform me. But it must be on logic and reasoning not on blind faith . -
every ayah is screaming with over whelming proves, Mary being ashamed , not being touched, people accusing Mary , etc ,etc.
Please bring your proof of what you are allegging. Anyone can make a statement, but can they back up their statement?
If you are one of those then the Quran describes you precisely
625 Some of them pretend to listen to you, but Our Law has already veiled their hearts from understanding and caused deafness in their ears. Blind followers fail to believe even when they see all kinds of proofs. When they come to argue with you, they say about the Qur?an, "These are stories of the bygones."
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Please bring your proof of what you are allegging. Anyone can make a statement, but can they back up their statement?
If you are one of those then the Quran describes you precisely
625 Some of them pretend to listen to you, but Our Law has already veiled their hearts from understanding and caused deafness in their ears. Blind followers fail to believe even when they see all kinds of proofs. When they come to argue with you, they say about the Qur?an, "These are stories of the bygones."
Peace,
Where is your proof or are you one one of those precisely who believes "These are stories of the bygones"...
Maryam 1926 -30
So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the Merciful, a fast, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human. So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
4156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.
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Peace,
Respectfully.Cloning is not possible, as far as i know.
God knows best.
See, in order to duplicate flesh and for the flash to act as flash acts, the same flash needs to have that information stored somewhere and a human was created with that information.If you want to clone someone, you need to know one thing God puts the soul into the body.
So, you can clone an arm, leg, hair, thumb, pinky, nose, liver, heart, you cna pretty much clone a human piece by peice but these peieces cannot be put together nor can they work, even if you found a way to clone someone piece by piece and even if you found a way to put it together.God, The Most Powerful puts the soul inside the body and a woman delivers the human, somewomen give birth to a still born. That is a lesson for us all.
I have written a script and explained cloning.
Hope it will be as good as Terminator and better then Multiplicity.
Glory be to God,
Glory be to our God, The Most Merciful,
Glory be to our God, The AllPowerful.
God bless you all.Peace.
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Peace
Believing in the Virgin Birth of Isa is not blind faith. If you say that a person cannot be born without two parents, how was Adam born? What you are not understanding is that when God wills something to be it is. The VIRGIN birth of Jesus is outlined very clearly in the Qur'an, it is up to you whether you want to believe it or not, but this on the basis of if you believe in God's true nature, which I will go into
She said, 'My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?' said, 'This is how God creates what He will when He has ordained something, He only says, "Be", and it is."
"In God's eyes Jesus is just like Adam He created him from dust, said to him 'Be', and he was. This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt."
It is clear from the Angel's rebuttal that when Mary says when no man has touched me that God means to make her give birth without any conception hence the retort. If you twist it to mean anything else match it with the second verse, GOD DID NOT SAY HE MADE JESUS FROM SPURTING FLUID. HE MADE HIM FROM DUST (WITHOUT A FATHER) LIKE ADAM. the likeness is that they they were created this way when no-one else was that is why God said just like Adam then explained what He meant, He didn't say he was alike to him in birth or mother or anything else just HOW they were created. The rest of mankind IS made from spurting fluid, and there are more than enough verses in the Qur'an to back this up.
"Read! In the name of your Lord who created He created man from a clinging form...But man exceeds all bounds when he thinks he is self-sufficient"
96"He first created man from clay, then made his descendants from an extract of underrated fluid. Then He moulded him; He breathed from His Spirit into him; He gave you hearing, sights, and minds. How seldom you are grateful!"
329God said he made this Qur'an clear for all peoples, there are no riddles or esoteric truths in the Qur'an, there is too much picking apart of the Qur'an and not much putting the Qur'an into action on this forum. Jesus was born of a Virgin, that's all you need to know, that's all that is given, anything else after that is not of your knowledge just as the life of Mohammed after the Revelation is not important or to the knowledge of the believers. The Qur'an is not a book of mystery, it is meant to clarify not throw people into conjecture and dispute. Only those who disbelieve will be deceived and think this book is but ancient fables. God will seal their hearts. And it happens all the time. But people will always dispute after revelation is brought to them, the Jews did it, the Christians did it. God even swears by the clarity of the Qur'an...
"By the Scripture that makes things clear..."
442"We have made it easy to learn lessons from the Qur'an will anyone take heed?"
5417"These are the verses of the Scipture that makes things clear..."
282God does as he pleases.
But people will always say "these are ancient fables" and "there are no miracles" and "he made it up" till the Day of Reckoning. These are what the disbelievers say. So bear patience.
What does Physics say about the expansion of the Universe? The theory of inflation is in the process of being proven incorrect. It is only the layman who thinks science has all the answers. The researchers, and boundary breakers in science will truly tell you they have NO IDEA what is going on. Feynmann, Einstein, Bohr, look up their quotes on general relativity, quantum electrodynamics, the Bohr's atom, if you have any idea what they are relating to (your very existence). God rules through laws, and we exhibit his laws through experiment and research, collectively the sciences, but THIS IS NOT COMPLETE NOR IS IT DEFINITE, God is the Eternal Truth. And God can do as he pleases, it is His domain not ours. The Big Bang was not our choice, we were not there at that time, how arrogant humans are! Yet we want to claim we know the answers and can disprove miracles. There are many scientists however who have converted to true Islam and have found understanding eg Gary Miller, please look at this http//www.mydeviant.com/miller/gary_miller.html The air we breathe is a miracle, the eyes we see the sunset with are miracles. The brains and hearts we possess are miracles. Arrogance should be stripped away and we should remember what we came from (sperm, and before that dust) and that we are not Gods on Earth doing as we please. and we should appreciate that God has control over all things in His Domain and we are His servants.
Peace
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GOD DID NOT SAY HE MADE JESUS FROM SPURTING FLUID. HE MADE HIM FROM DUST (WITHOUT A FATHER) LIKE ADAM.
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Your mythological understanding of Adam also had no mother, so the comparison would be faulty then. Plus your version of Adam was created without any womb or anything. Again, what is left of the comparison? Your version of Adam was created without ANY humans, while your version of Jesus was created with a mother. How can they be compared!!!! Clearly this creates a contradiction and the Qur'an contains none.
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All of mankind is made out of dust...
1837 And his friend answered him in the course of their argument "Wilt thou blaspheme against Him who has created thee out of dust, and then out of a drop of sperm, and in the end has fashioned thee into a man?
225 O people, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. We settle in the wombs what We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child, then you reach your maturity, and of you are those who will pass away, and of you are those who are sent to an old age where he will not be able to learn any new knowledge after what he already has. You see the land still, but when We send down the water to it, it vibrates and grows, and it brings forth of every lovely pair
3020 And among His wonders is this He creates you out of dust and then, lo! you become human beings ranging far and wide!
3511 And God creates you out of dust...
4067 It is He who creates you out of dust..
Muhammad Asad - The Message Of Quran
Muhammad Asad - End Note 47 (366)Lit., "The parable of Jesus is as the parable of Adam...", etc. The expression mathal (rendered above as "nature" is often metaphorically employed to denote the state or condition (of a person or a thing), and is in this sense - as the commentators have pointed out - synonymous with sifah (the "quality" or "nature" of a thing). As is evident from the sequence, the above passage is part of an argument against the Christian doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. The Qur'an stresses here, as in many other places, the fact that Jesus, like Adam - by which name, in this context, the whole human race is meant - was only a mortal "created out of dust", i.e., out of substances, both organic and inorganic, which are found in their elementary forms on and in the earth. Cf. also 1837, 225, 3020, 3511, 4067, where the Qur'an speaks of all human beings as "created out of dust". That "Adam" stands here for the human race is clearly implied in the use of the present tense in the last word of this sentence.
Adam=Human skin, Human being, Man, Person, Intelligent Person, Brown Man, Human Race, Mankind, Civilized Person, Person who is created from different substances, Person in possession of different powers, One who has heirs, One who enjoys the conforts of Life, One who is by nature social and hard.
So a better rendition of the verse is
359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of all of Mankind; He created him from dust, then He said to him Be and he was.
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No sir, you are either in error, or maybe we agree on only some aspects.
Jesus and Adam are alike in how they were created. They were not made from spurting fluid. They were made from dust. Whether or not born in womb or simply created out of no parent that is their only likeness that is all God says they are in likeness to THAT THEY WERE NOT MADE FROM SPERM BUT DUST (which is why God said it all together in one sentence). All of mankind was created from SPERM except Adam and Jesus. The quotes you use simply mean that We all came from sperm AND BEFORE THAT we all originated from ADAM who was CREATED FROM DUST. So in essence WE ARE ALL FROM DUST. Even though we are born from sperm, we go back to Adam who is the only one APART FROM JESUS, created from dust. Your quotes you use do not contradict. Nor is my understanding of Adam "mythological" it is only logical.
225 O people, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you.
The dust part is Adam, then his descendents were born from his seed and from then on it was thus. But we all come from dust and we all return to dust.
Peace
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No sir, you are in error.
Jesus and Adam are alike in how they were created. They were not made from spurting fluid. They were made from dust. that is their only likeness that is all God says they are in likeness to HOW THEY WERE CREATED (which is why God said it all together in one sentence). All of mankind was created from SPERM except Adam and Jesus. The quotes you use simply mean that We all came from sperm AND BEFORE THAT we all originated from ADAM who was CREATED FROM DUST. So in essence WE ARE ALL FROM DUST. Even though we are born from sperm, we go back to Adam who is the only one APART FROM JESUS, created from dust. Your quotes you use do not contradict. Nor is my understanding of Adam "mythological" it is only logical.
Peace
In what sense and how was Adam contructed by dust? Was he first made into clay and then life was breathed into him? So the clay became cells of carbon? And was Jesus also made out of silicone/clay in Mary's womb? Or was any sort of cells involved in her womb?
Also why is the last word in the verse 359 in present tense making Adam present now here?
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In what sense and how was Adam contructed by dust? Was he first made into clay and then life was breathed into him? So the clay became cells of carbon? And was Jesus also made out of silicone/clay in Mary's womb? Or was any sort of cells involved in her womb?
Also why is the last word in the verse 359 in present tense making Adam present now here?
I said earlier God does as he pleases, He says so in the Qur'an. I was not there at the time of Adam so it would be arrogant to assume such things as how exactly he was created. But God outlines it does he not? I'll find the quote for you on how He created Jesus
"Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him."
God willed it so it was, regardless of how it happened. He was born. I was not there with a microscope nor was I the midwife, so my basis on this debate is the Qur'an alone and not my own experiences. The likeness between Jesus and Adam is that they were not born from underrated fluid. I don't see how it is that hard to accept. In the Qur'an God addresses Mankind and he says
"it is He who shapes you all in the womb as He pleases."
36Now Adam was not born in the womb. And there are no contradictions in the Qur'an. As you know so the sense of all means Mankind as descendants from ADAM are ALL different from Adam in that he had no womb. God makes it clear that Adam is different in "the Cow" and throughout the Qur'an. So this further proves what I was saying that WE all come from sperm and we all trace back to Adam who came from Dust. This does not contradict and God outlines this process in the verses you yourself quoted. We are not the same as Adam in our birth, but we did come from Adam and he was from Dust. Jesus was born in a womb so he is different from Adam in this sense along with all mankind. Only Adam had no womb. Try making a baby with no womb... IVF involves reinsertion of the fertilised egg back into the woman.Again the ONLY likeness between Christ and First Man is that they were not made from underrated fluid. Nothing else.
Peace
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Again the ONLY likeness between Christ and First Man is that they were not made from underrated fluid. Nothing else.
That is a subjective interpretation not an absolute one. So we have to disagree on this point then.
Peace
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That is a subjective interpretation not an absolute one. So we have to disagree on this point then.
Peace
It is what I understand yes. I hope I made it clear why I believe this? I do understand what you are saying, and it makes sense to me also, I agree with most of what you are saying. All my basis in this debate is what I read in the Qur'an.
Peace
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Example of why it is not subjective.
If I say "Me and my sister are just alike we both come from our Mother and Father"
That is not a contradictive statement. Because I am sayin we are alike only on these terms. I am not sayin we are both female, both the same age or both the same in every way shape or form. In this statement we are only alike in Mother and Father giving us life. The first part gives us the idea, the second part gives us the PRECISE context. This is the same in the verse we are disputing about. Now if you read that statement any way else that is your misinterpretation. Because that sentence is clear, it only refers to the Mother and Father. Just as the verse in the Qur'an refers to only creation from dust. As you know Man is either created from dust or sperm. Since God says they are both from dust, then they are not from sperm. Therefore they are just alike they both did not come from spurting fluid. There can be no bias involved, it is just logical.
Peace