Virgin Birth of Isa
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Maryam 1926 -30
So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the Merciful, a fast, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human. So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
Why not speak to anyone?
Why carrying him?
Why point to him to speak?No comment on the human gigolo )
According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court" ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.
Jews accused the same and were chastised in Qur'an...
4156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.
I clearly say that I believe she was MARRIED to the person and this is what offended her family. And a child cannot speak, so it means Jesus was already at an age he could speak. talking from the cradle is a metaphor that was common in Jewish culture.
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I clearly say that I believe she was MARRIED to the person and this is what offended her family. And a child cannot speak, so it means Jesus was already at an age he could speak. talking from the cradle is a metaphor that was common in Jewish culture.
Where does it say she was MARRIED to that person and this is what offended her family?
If he was at speaking age, why did she carry him, not speak, and point to him?
If metaphor why did they ask ? ?How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?"
HOW is a question not a metaphoric statement!
Peace
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Where does it say she was MARRIED to that person and this is what offended her family?
If he was at speaking age, why did she carry him, not speak, and point to him?
If metaphor why did they ask ? ?How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?"
HOW is a question not a metaphoric statement!
Peace
Peace,
The marriage-part has been discussed before, please look it up.
A young person who was unmarried and had no beard was seen as a child in orthodox culture. They ask Mary a serious question and then she points to her son, who they see as not having the right to speak up since he is not seen as a man but as a child. How old Jesus exactly was when addressed in this verse I do not know, but a child cannot be a Prophet since he would not be taken seriously, nor could he defend himself in a threatening situation.
Nor could a child pay Zakat...
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Peace,
The marriage-part has been discussed before, please look it up.
No, you show it to me -- it's not anywhere in Qur'an.
A young person who was unmarried and had no beard was seen as a child in orthodox culture. They ask Mary a serious question and then she points to her son, who they see as not having the right to speak up since he is not seen as a man but as a child.
Why did she point to him?
Had no beard and she carried him, right?How old Jesus exactly was when addressed in this verse I do not know, but a child cannot be a Prophet since he would not be taken seriously, nor could he defend himself in a threatening situation.
Are you saying he was NOT a prophet, needs to learn martial arts, and God is not a protector?
Nor could a child pay Zakat...
Where does it say zakat is all about money and we are to start paying immediately as babies?
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Peace,
Let's take 1 subject at the time.
Why did she point to him?
Had no beard and she carried him, right?The word Hamala does not only mean "To carry something". it also means " To show"
= Haa-Miim-La = bore it, carried it, took it up, carried it, convey, show/manifest, carry a thing upon one's back or head, bear a burden, become pregnant with or conceive a child (woman), to go about spreading calumny or slander, give someone a beast to ride, mount someone upon a beast of burden, show or manifest anger, task or fatigue oneself, take a responsibility upon oneself, incite someone to do a thing, produce or put forth something , narrate and write down a thing , carry or do a thing, bear the burden of a calumny, to charge with a crime.
Are you saying he was NOT a prophet, needs to learn martial arts, and God is not a protector?
- Would you listen to a child?
- Prophethood mostly comes when they are adults as can be seen throughout the Quran.
- We can also see being a Prophet is a very dangerous job and also needs certain wisdom and experience to carry out the job.
- God protects through guidance/wahi.
Where does it say zakat is all about money and we are to start paying immediately as babies?
Doesn't matter if you understand it as "betterment" in any form, a child cannot do this in a way that it affects society. Especially in such a patriarchical culture as the Jews of the 1st century.
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Peace,
The word Hamala does not only mean "To carry something". it also means " To show"
Alright, let?s see how this definition fits context?
After some years she came ?to show? him and they were upset, hurling insults?
"You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute.
Where was the husband/father?
Why was she told not to speak and pointed to the child to speak on her behalf instead?- Would you listen to a child?
Yes.
- Prophethood mostly comes when they are adults as can be seen throughout the Quran.
Yes, mostly means there are exceptions...
1912 You John/Yahya, take The Book with power/strength, and We gave/brought him the judgment/rule (as) a boy/child/infant.
- We can also see being a Prophet is a very dangerous job and also needs certain wisdom and experience to carry out the job.
- God protects through guidance/wahi.
Yes, God protects with infinite combinations and other means including human protectors, etc.
Doesn't matter if you understand it as "betterment" in any form, a child cannot do this in a way that it affects society. Especially in such a patriarchical culture as the Jews of the 1st century.
Each gives charity according to their means; obviously a child is at a disadvantage.
Where does it say a child has to do this right away else it negates being a prophet child?
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peace,
Peace,
Alright, lets see how this definition fits context
After some years she came to show him and they were upset, hurling insults?
"You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute.
Where was the husband/father?
Why was she told not to speak and pointed to the child to speak on her behalf instead?- Dead? Maybe this is also why she went to her family?
- Maybe he was old enough to speak for himself in her eyes?
Yes.
Yes, mostly means there are exceptions...
1912 You John/Yahya, take The Book with power/strength, and We gave/brought him the judgment/rule (as) a boy/child/infant.
Getting wisdom is not immediately the same as being a Prophet.
Yes, God protects with infinite combinations and other means including human protectors, etc.
Yes, but this gives a bit of a "Total Recall" idea of hiding the small wise one
Each gives charity according to their means; obviously a child is at a disadvantage.
Where does it say a child has to do this right away else it negates being a prophet child?
Where does it say it doesn't?
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Peace,
- Dead? Maybe this is also why she went to her family?
- Maybe he was old enough to speak for himself in her eyes?
Maybe a baby. angel
Getting wisdom is not immediately the same as being a Prophet.
Yes, but this gives a bit of a "Total Recall" idea of hiding the small wise one
Where does it say it doesn't?
Fact is...
He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
peace
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Peace,
Maybe a baby. angel
Fact is...
He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."
peace
Yes, but it is not a fact that speaking from the cradle directly means a baby is speaking. To me it is a clear metaphor.
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Peace belalhammad,
So what you're saying is there's only one occurrence of either ibn or bint a male name, and only one occurrence of either ibn or bint a female name - is this correct?
Yes, and hundreds of "Bani", which means the same, "Sons and daughters".
Thus, one occurrence of Son of Female, one Occurrence of Son of Male, one occurrence of dauoghter of Male, and hundereds of occurrence of Sons and Daughters of Male.
The thread shows only YOU and it doesn't even discuss the subject.
No, read it again (you seam you forget too much and overlook things)
So he was a human....verse is clear.
The 19-17 verse says "God made the spirt to look like Human".
I think you know that it says that, but you are trying to twist the truth, as usual.Such a childish way... I only used the Bible to show that the earliest Christians didn't knew the concept of virgin-birth as later Christians, this is also why the oldest parts don't mention it. You know this since I mentioned this twice already, but you try to hang on to every little scrap of arguments, doesn't matter how silly or circular they are. Shows you are running out of arguments...
hmm
Peace,
No, it can imply both mother and father. So both his father and mother were blessed. Still the verse doesn't change in its directness.
So you mean the word "Abaahom in verse 6-88" is not a Well-Established-Meaning-word?
Then how can you use a verse that is not well-establish to Cancel out many well-established verses that supports Jesus Virgin Birth;
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND. brickwall
Did I tell you before that God says in 3-6 that anyone do that is a SICK PERSON with a WICKED HEART.
NOW, according to you and Samia, verse 6-88 and 87 are not desicive verses.
So you are left with one verse, which is 3-55, that you are using to support your Wicked THEORY.
Question, why God compaired the creation of Jesus by Adam in 3-55?
Why God did not compaire him by Ibrham, or Moses, or Davied?
What are the different between the creation of Moses and Adam? -
Peace belalhammad,
Yes, and hundreds of "Bani", which means the same, "Sons and daughters".
Thus, one occurrence of Son of Female, one Occurrence of Son of Male, one occurrence of dauoghter of Male, and hundereds of occurrence of Sons and Daughters of Male.
True. And how many significant (regarding our guidance) females are even mentioned in the qur'an? If we're going to use the mention of ibn Maryam as any sort of measuring stick in surmising whether it's out of the ordinary to call one by his/her mother's name, then a ratio should be used - not a tally.
So, I pose that you count up all the males mentioned in the qur'an and get a percentage of how many of them are referred to as the subject of "ibn, bint, bani", etc. Then do the same for females. I'm saying "you" because this is what your posing as proof.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
The 19-17 verse says "God made the spirt to look like Human".
I think you know that it says that, but you are trying to twist the truth, as usual.He made the Ruh come in the form of a human. So we must first discuss Ruh, as spirit is not a direct translation of the word, nor is it limited to that.
I would be a bit more careful with your "as usual" 's since you already had to back down in the Raheem thread.
So you mean the word "Abaahom in verse 6-88" is not a Well-Established-Meaning-word?
Then how can you use a verse that is not well-establish to Cancel out many well-established verses that supports Jesus Virgin Birth;
Show me first well-established verses that support the virgin birth as till now only subjective interpretations have been presented.
Question, why God compaired the creation of Jesus by Adam in 3-55?
Why God did not compaire him by Ibrham, or Moses, or Davied?
What are the different between the creation of Moses and Adam?Because Adam means Mankind in Old Arabic, so he doesn't compare it with one human, but with all of us so there wouldn't be any mistakes. If a comparison was made with Abraham or Moses people would have found a way to make Abraham and Moses also be born by a virgin. Because Muslims have Christian theology in their mind when reading the Quran. A good example already for that is your belief that deeds are not enough while the Quran clearly states the opposite. This is Christian theology, not Quranic theology.
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Peace,
He made the Ruh come in the form of a human. So we must first discuss Ruh, as spirit is not a direct translation of the word, nor is it limited to that.
(٥
They ask thee concerning the Spirit (Al-Roh). Say "The Spirit (Al-Roh) by command of my Lord, and the knowledge that is communicated to you (men) is little (about Roh) (17-85)So, are you claiming you have knowledge of Roh more than what is communicated in Quran, Bible, and Torah.
I would be a bit more careful with your "as usual" 's since you already had to back down in the Raheem thread.
Not me, I think you are confused (as usual)
Show me first well-established verses that support the virgin birth as till now only subjective interpretations have been presented.
God will show you and not me; here are three well-established verses for a start
(٧ (٨ (٩
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them then We sent to her Our Spirit (Rohana), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (19-17)
She said "I seek refuge from thee to Most Gracious, if thou dost fear Allah." (1 He said "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord to thee (Le-Aheb) the gift of a holy son." (19)Because Adam means Mankind in Old Arabic, so he doesn't compare it with one human, but with all of us so there wouldn't be any mistakes. If a comparison was made with Abraham or Moses people would have found a way to make Abraham and Moses also be born by a virgin. Because Muslims have Christian theology in their mind when reading the Quran. A good example already for that is your belief that deeds are not enough while the Quran clearly states the opposite. This is Christian theology, not Quranic theology.
No, you are wrong as usual; Let God tell you what is the commen thing of Jesus and Adam Creation
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And her who guarded her chastity We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples. (21-91)
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"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." (15-29)Both were created by "Breathed from God's Spirit" "Nafaka Min Roh Allah".
Because Adam means Mankind in Old Arabic, so he doesn't compare it with one human, but with all of us so there wouldn't be any mistakes.
ADAM Means ADAM in any language, as Arnold Means Arnold in any Language.
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Peace belalhammad,
True. And how many significant (regarding our guidance) females are even mentioned in the qur'an?
Salam Tay
Only one Femal were used to call a Human being, "Jesus the Son Of Mary".But all others were called by a Male. Thus, the count would be 1 for Female to 100s for Male.
Peace
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Peace belalhammad,
You're avoiding the question -
How many significant females are mentioned in the qur'an in comparison to their mention as someone's mother, versus males mentioned versus their mention as someone's mother. If you're not up to it, I'll summarize for you. The ratio of women mentioned versus their mention as mothers far exceeds the ratio of males. Thus, any and all correlation to some kind of cultural precedence is null and void.Peace,
Tay -
Salam,
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They ask thee concerning the Spirit (Al-Roh). Say "The Spirit (Al-Roh) by command of my Lord, and the knowledge that is communicated to you (men) is little (about Roh) (17-85)So, are you claiming you have knowledge of Roh more than what is communicated in Quran, Bible, and Torah.
So why are you certain that it means "spirit"? Ruh has several meanings in Arabic, plus the ways it is used by God is not know to us as the above verse says, so the Ruh coming in the shape of a human still means what it says, a human came to her.
God will show you and not me; here are three well-established verses for a start
(٧ (٨ (٩
She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them then We sent to her Our Spirit (Rohana), and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (19-17)
She said "I seek refuge from thee to Most Gracious, if thou dost fear Allah." (1 He said "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord to thee (Le-Aheb) the gift of a holy son." (19)Where is the virgin birth? It says a human came to her to make her known she will have a son.
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And her who guarded her chastity We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples. (21-91)
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"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." (15-29)Both were created by "Breathed from God's Spirit" "Nafaka Min Roh Allah".
All humans are created with God's Ruh
327-9 Who created everything in perfect balance. Thus He initiated the creation of the humans (insani) from hydrated inorganic matter. Then He made him to be reproduced out of the essence of a humble fluid. He shapes him in accordance with what he is meant to be, and breathes into him of His Ruh...
ADAM Means ADAM in any language, as Arnold Means Arnold in any Language.
Adam is only used in semetic languages and then taken over by Christian nations into their languages as the name of a biblical figure. So the majority use of the word is not the proof. The dictionaries completely contradict your statement
20Page 15-17 under the root Adama. Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an by Abdul Mannar Omar, 2006 4th
edition. Human skin, Human being, Intelligent Person, Brown Man, Human Race, mankind, Civilized
Person, Person in possession of different powers. -
Peace
In many verses, God ordered us to be kind to our parents, Father and Mother.
So, for example in chapter 19, there is a clear comparison between Yahya and Jesus regarding being kind to their father and mother
In the case of Yahya
(٢ (٣ (٤
(To his son came the command) "O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might" and We gave him wisdom even as a youth. (19-12) And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity he was devout (13) And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. (14)In the case of Jesus
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"And kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (19-32)Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
Peace
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Peace
In many verses, God ordered us to be kind to our parents, Father and Mother.
So, for example in chapter 19, there is a clear comparison between Yahya and Jesus regarding being kind to their father and mother
In the case of Yahya
(٢ (٣ (٤
(To his son came the command) "O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might" and We gave him wisdom even as a youth. (19-12) And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity he was devout (13) And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. (14)In the case of Jesus
(٢
"And kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (19-32)Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
Peace
This is faulty logic since the father could be dead already at the moment he spoke this. Again no decisive proof has been given.
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Peace all
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Then will Allah say "O Jesus, the son of Mary! recount my favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said `This is nothing but evident magic'. (110)God says "O Jesus, the son of Mary! recount my favour to thee and to thy mother".
That shows that Jesus had no father, otherwise God would have said "recount my favour to thee and to thy parents".
That is another desicive and well establish proof, beside the other ones that were mentioned before.
Arnold, by the way I'm not trying to make you agree with me, rather I'm trying to show the truth about Jesus Birth from the Quran.
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Salam,
So why are you certain that it means "spirit"? Ruh has several meanings in Arabic, plus the ways it is used by God is not know to us as the above verse says, so the Ruh coming in the shape of a human still means what it says, a human came to her.
Where is the virgin birth? It says a human came to her to make her known she will have a son.
That shows that your reasoning and logic needs improvment.
All humans are created with God's Ruh
327-9 Who created everything in perfect balance. Thus He initiated the creation of the humans (insani) from hydrated inorganic matter. Then He made him to be reproduced out of the essence of a humble fluid. He shapes him in accordance with what he is meant to be, and breathes into him of His Ruh...
This verse shows the begining of our creation (the creation of Adam).
This how we were created, when a man and a woman get togther
( ( (
Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); (12) Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest firmly fixed; (13) Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature so blessed be Allah, the Best to create! (23-14)Thus the comon creation between Adam and Jesus are No Father and Breath from God Spirit.
Adam is only used in semetic languages and then taken over by Christian nations into their languages as the name of a biblical figure. So the majority use of the word is not the proof. The dictionaries completely contradict your statement
20Page 15-17 under the root Adama. Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an by Abdul Mannar Omar, 2006 4th
edition. Human skin, Human being, Intelligent Person, Brown Man, Human Race, mankind, Civilized
Person, Person in possession of different powers.Your proof is Dictionary written by human, and my proof is the Quran. If you want to use my proof, please feel free